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Repoll: Difficulty Level?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game IV: Polls' started by Seidrik_The_Gray, Mar 18, 2008.

?

What difficulty level?

Poll closed Mar 20, 2008.
  1. Prince

    50.0%
  2. Emperor

    50.0%
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  1. Seidrik_The_Gray

    Seidrik_The_Gray Seidrik The Gray

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    Question: What Difficulty Level will we use?

    options Prince, Emperor

    This is a repoll of the original question after new information posted in the original poll prompted some citizens to say they would choose differently if they had known more. Also, quite frankly, my run-off attempt was a disaster perpetrated by my own pour word-smithing in the early morning (I should know better!)

    Admin, please close my runoff poll here.

    Please accept my appologies for the unintended bias in my earlier poll and for misconstruing the reasons behind the new poll.
     
  2. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I am one of the people who changed positions based on the discussion past the ending date of the original poll. I believe that there will be better roleplaying material from a difficult game which presents unexpected and challenging events. Higher difficulty should help with that, as long as we don't go out of our way to play a bad game. Less than perfect for role playing purposes is fine, outright bad choices will obviously need to be avoided.
     
  3. AluminumKnight

    AluminumKnight Conquistador

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    I am still of the opinion that Emporer doesn't leave us enough room, as we can be quickly crushed much too easily. Monarch would be my upper limit, and Prince is pretty much right on where I think we will still have a challenge but yet be free to make decisions based on RP as much as we want.
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think random civ and unrestricted leader combination along with an overcrowded world (9 civs) and city flip option on would be more than sufficient a challenge, if we consider the combination of options. Emperor along with these options would make this a short game indeed, and roleplay would get a minimum of space. I notice that the same supporters of Prince difficulty level are mostly those that support roleplaying anyways.

    For those who are serious about the Factions, please support Prince, not the "Zerg" alternative.
     
  5. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    I am serious about roleplaying and I have voted emporer for the same reasons Dave mentioned. Prince would simply be a cakewalk and would bore both the hardcorists and the roleplayers. It's far easier to roleplay if the faction you are roleplaying as a part of isn't too dominating. Rather be the small dog than the largest fish o' the pond imho.
     
  6. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Nice summary - agreed.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  7. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Emperor as I stated in the other thread and has been discussed here too.
     
  8. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Hey there :)

    I read your excellent BTS Info thread, and I know you are an expert and all in BTS :) However, I could not find one single word about the difficulty levels there, can you please enlighten us on that, and what it means?
     
  9. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    We haven't been able to dominate a demogame on Prince at all, and our first time around was almost a disaster. I think we should stick to Prince as it seems to give us a bit of a challenge. Emperor is just asking for us to fail.
     
  10. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Ice2k4s analysis is quite accurate. However, that said, there are some of those that wants the faction system to fail, which is why we see some developments now both in the metagame and the political department. Emperor fits nicely into a strategy for a stronger emphasis on rules and gameplay above roleplay and narratives.
     
  11. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Interesting, as I feel playing on Emperor level would help the faction play style. I also find it odd you keep saying this as I'm not seeing people argue against factions. If anything, it appears like the DG is getting even more players due to the faction system. I don't see how pushing emperor difficulty level is trying to remove factions, or is this a manipulative thing that I'm just not seeing? [No offense meant, just a serious statement]
     
  12. Shattered

    Shattered Lord of Utopia

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    I just don't see why this was re-polled. Even if those people who wanted their votes changed did so, Prince still would have had the majority. Is anyone going to be able to re-poll something just because 3 people want to? All this does is slow down the demo-game so that person can try and get the way they wanted, rather than accepting the majority. This isn't pointed at anyone mind you. I just find it odd that the majority was ignored in this polls case.
     
  13. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think the picture is not black-white here, pertaining to the interest in keeping factions. Factions is bound to be a better sell than the obsolete traditional one, as people like to identify with a core concept in a competing setting, not some blurred and carebearish thing. There are arguments supporting an emperor level, I admit that, but not all players here are that competitive, they simply log on, read the game forums, post and vote. Many of these would be happy with warlords and noble levels, and we already upped the ante with added civs, random civ/unrestricted leader and so on.

    City flip option enabled also makes for higher risk. We are quite possibly Prince 2.0 as it stands, with the faction-based system (which is run for the very first time, historically), BTS increased the level of challenge, there are numerous new variables to consider, new game features, we got a huge faction of mainly veterans (tribals) and another huge faction of entirely new players (legion) and a medium faction of mainly veterans (mysticracy) and a medium faction of mainly new players (only me as "veteran", but I am no real veteran, since none of my ruleset ideas ever won through, to be a veteran would require strong influence on ruleset).

    If you recall from the initial debates and polls establishing factions as the core ruleset, it was a very close race. Some players here swore that they would make this "experiment" fail, and they even repeated that several times, so many times, that I actually believe them. Kind of shame, now that we see factions attract more than the communal organization we had before.
    The core outcome of making this Emperor level, is that we create a caste system of elite demogame veterans on the top, telling newbees what to do, just so people can stay alive. Prince would level the playing field, and enable non-civ professionals to contribute with their ideas, so they are not ridiculed and isolated based on some CFC-slang or demogame terminology, or frozen out simply due to limited game-technical skills.

    We need an accessible playing field, now this is first time factions is run.

    This was also somewhat speculative, as people now could phase out "unwanted prince votes" due to Easter. The consequence of the perpetual repoll system some seek to institute, is that people voting for a majority poll never can rest safely after a poll, but must make sure that the outcome of the poll is implemented long after. This means, no one can ever write "final run-off poll", due to the insecurity if a result is not allowed to stand. The perpetual repoll regime regardless of previous outcome will just generate a "concrete shoe" policy that forces players to make sure the original poll result still stands, which just gives us extra labor. The original outcome winners will from now on remain vigilant, since their first poll never will be really valid.
     
  14. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I understand your point Provo, but I have to respectfully disagree on certain topics. I'm comfortable on Monarch, but I obviously wasn't always so. Emperor scares me on SP games and I won't go near immortal or deity unless its a HOF game (decide specific settings making it much easier i.e. future start). If a succession game were to pop up for immortal or deity, I wouldn't hesitate to join in. Why you ask? Simple, over several years of playing succession games I've learned how much easier they are due to playing as a group. My first succession game was civ3 and I was barely comfortable on regent. We played that SG on emperor and won without breaking a sweat. Yeah, we had Bede as a teacher and Soul Warrior helping out, but the difficulty level scared me and I believe the other players as well (we were noobs). I will jump on a much higher difficulty level in team games than I will an SP game. I believe I was playing immortal team games before I was comfortable at prince. Again, team games are much easier due to discussion.

    Prince IMO will be way too easy and the game will lose a lot of its fun. If the game is more challenging there will be more ammunition factions can use against each other. Look at the US now and how much our politicians are using world events to argue their platform. I fully expect and hope that our factions do the same thing. I'm afraid if we make it prince level, we'll move out ahead of the rest of the AI too quickly and the game aspect of roleplaying will be removed. If we play a more difficult level I still believe we'll win, but there will be more for the factions to argue about.

    I don't believe playing on emperor will force our lesser experienced players out of the game. I believe many of them will play because there will be others they are playing with and can learn from. And I'll be the first to say even a veteran player can learn from a non-veteran player.
     
  15. blastoidstalker

    blastoidstalker The Geographer

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    My two cents on what we should do.

    1) wipe all these current polls away
    2) start a new poll in this forum with every diffiuclty level present.
    a) If one difficulty level gets over 50% it is selected end of story.
    b) if no level is above 50% then have a run off between the levels with the most votes. In the case of a tie, then have all levels in tie involved. Once run off gives a 50% result that is the level
     
  16. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I agree...
     
  17. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I can agree very much with this. These difficulty polls have been....difficult....to accept. In a sense, I found the almost 60 % for prince what I called a strong win, and we cannot have a culture for restarting polls simply because they forgot to reflect/discuss why they wanted a difficulty in the first place. Otherwise we need rules for how long a debate should be and how long for polls.
     
  18. Bertie

    Bertie Prince

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    DaveShack, Diamondeye, and particularly Methos have made some pretty compelling arguments. I voted Prince in the previous poll; their arguments have persuaded me to vote Emperor in this one. Prince on a normal-size map with 9 civilizations will be a cakewalk, as Diamondeye says, and we risk getting bored with the game. In order to give factions the best shot I'm now convinced we should go with Emperor difficulty.
     
  19. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    This is not the place to discuss specifics, but if you're going to make this kind of accusation it needs to be backed by facts. Care to PM links?
    If not, please refer to the forum rules statement on posting false and defamatory information.

    This makes no sense at all. The poll ends long before then.
     
  20. lostcause

    lostcause Aim to Misbehave

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    First of all, for me, emperor would be daunting. I've played Civ for a few years now and still have issues playing on the Warlord difficulty. There are plenty of noobs (before you complain I consider myself one of them) playing in this demogame, the amount of micromanagement might be overwhelming. I'm still trying to figure it all out myself.

    Secondly, factions are new, and as ice2k4 said, prince IS a challenge for a demogame without factions. To think that a harder level is a better way to try something new I find hard to fathom. I'd say the opposite would be needed, which is an EASIER level than prince, if you were truly interested in trying out the 'faction experiment.' If prince turns out to be to easy, then fine, we know to up the difficulty next time. 'Better safe than sorry', 'error on the side of caution,' etc. Having the difficulty higher is almost like asking for the game to fail.

    And finally, I doubt it'll get boring on Prince. The game hasn't started yet and I am in no way bored. With the factions and random events, we'll have a blast!

    -Lost
     
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