Research Agreements

[tu_79]

Just curious, why are they unselected by default?

I like them, they are a way to invest money into beakers while improving your diplo. I know I can select it before a game, but what is the reason for this change?

 

[Funak]

Just curious, why are they unselected by default?

I like them, they are a way to invest money into beakers while improving your diplo. I know I can select it before a game, but what is the reason for this change?

There were some reasons that I can't remember, but the bottom line is pretty much that Gazebo decided to use tech-trading over research-agreements by default.
From what I've gathered, most people seem to switch to research-agreements manually by themselves, but there you go.

 

[Tomice]

I never changed the option. Does it allow both tech trading and research agreements or is it either/or?

 

[Funak]

I never changed the option. Does it allow both tech trading and research agreements or is it either/or?

There is one option to disable research-agreements (enabled from start) and one option to disable tech-trading (disabled from start). You select these in the advanced 'start game' menu.

 

[Gazebo]

There were some reasons that I can't remember, but the bottom line is pretty much that Gazebo decided to use tech-trading over research-agreements by default.
From what I've gathered, most people seem to switch to research-agreements manually by themselves, but there you go.

I made no such decision. In a testing environment, it makes more sense for users to use the aspect of C4DF under testing, rather than the 'known' entity. It is also C4DF's default setting, and since Putmalk has returned, I'd bring it up with him, not me. I've never changed it because I include C4DF in the CPP as Putmalk designed it.

G

 

[Putmalk]

When I implemented tech trading in C4DF Tech Trading was enabled by default (obvious reasons), but I recognized RAs may be preferred, I allowed the option to specify how you want to play. But I did not make the decision for CBP.

 

[Funak]

I made no such decision. In a testing environment, it makes more sense for users to use the aspect of C4DF under testing, rather than the 'known' entity. It is also C4DF's default setting, and since Putmalk has returned, I'd bring it up with him, not me. I've never changed it because I include C4DF in the CPP as Putmalk designed it.

I'm fairly certain it used to be disabled by default at some point, which means you must have made some kind of decision, even if that decision was to go back to Putmalk's original design. But whatever, let's just drop it.

When I implemented tech trading in C4DF Tech Trading was enabled by default (obvious reasons), but I recognized RAs may be preferred, I allowed the option to specify how you want to play. But I did not make the decision for CBP.

I have absolutely no problem with tech-trading existing as a feature or even that the main game is balanced around both it and research-agreements, but I'm really not a fan of it being the default option.
I've heard people complaining about it in various twitch-chats (yeah, bottom of the barrel, I know ), that they dislike CPP because 'CPP removed research-agreements for no reason at all'.

I understand that you can't really design a game so that every single twitch-chatter understands it, but if most people use/prefer research-agreements, it makes sense to me that they are enabled by default.

 

[Gazebo]

When I implemented tech trading in C4DF Tech Trading was enabled by default (obvious reasons), but I recognized RAs may be preferred, I allowed the option to specify how you want to play. But I did not make the decision for CBP.

I kept C4DF's settings as-is with regards to how they were set in C4DF when it was picked up by the CPP. As such, I defer to you with regards to future default settings.

G

 

[Putmalk]

I'm fairly certain it used to be disabled by default at some point, which means you must have made some kind of decision, even if that decision was to go back to Putmalk's original design. But whatever, let's just drop it.



I have absolutely no problem with tech-trading existing as a feature or even that the main game is balanced around both it and research-agreements, but I'm really not a fan of it being the default option.
I've heard people complaining about it in various twitch-chats (yeah, bottom of the barrel, I know ), that they dislike CPP because 'CPP removed research-agreements for no reason at all'.

I understand that you can't really design a game so that every single twitch-chatter understands it, but if most people use/prefer research-agreements, it makes sense to me that they are enabled by default.

Doesn't sound like my problem, though. C4DF is designed to enable Civ IV Diplomacy and I support that. If people don't like Tech Trading I have provided the facilities to change it to Research Agreements. CBP can specify the controls flipped if they want, don't think that's too much of an issue but it may require some discussion.

Edit: to clarify, I don't see why C4DF defaults change, it's against the principles of the mod. If support needs to be added to flip the settings I can add that, but CBP is responsible for making that change.

 

[Funak]

So the bottom line is that neither of you have any problems with it, but neither of you wants to do it? That's annoying.

 

[Atlas627]

It makes logical sense to test the balance (and AI evaluation) of tech trading while we are still developing the mod. I think Gazebo said its been publicly released by now, though? If so, we should make RAs on by default, and tech trading either on/off by default (idc).

 

[Putmalk]

If it's up to me, the settings stay at Tech trading defaulted. That's the point of C4DF, and I will not alter my mod's scope.

However, if you want to use the feature Tech Trading but have Research Agreements enabled as default, I can provide the functionality to flip the defaults via a config switch. But I will not flip this switch for CBP. It is out of the scope of my contributions.

Perhaps that's as clear as it gets? I'm not sure what else I could say .

 

[Gazebo]

It makes logical sense to test the balance (and AI evaluation) of tech trading while we are still developing the mod. I think Gazebo said its been publicly released by now, though? If so, we should make RAs on by default, and tech trading either on/off by default (idc).

C4DF is still in development, and so is the CPP. Deal valuation is in constant flux as old bugs are removed and new things added, so – until that ends – I'm leaving tech trading enabled by default. Not sure why this is an issue at all, to be honest – one button click and you can play however you want. The reason I keep it defaulted to on in the CBP is for testing purposes, I've been quite clear about that in the past.

G

 

[Finarvi]

C4DF is still in development, and so is the CPP. Deal valuation is in constant flux as old bugs are removed and new things added, so – until that ends – I'm leaving tech trading enabled by default. Not sure why this is an issue at all, to be honest – one button click and you can play however you want. The reason I keep it defaulted to on in the CBP is for testing purposes, I've been quite clear about that in the past.

G

The problem is that by forgetting to switch it, I may ruin my game (I can't prevent myself from exploiting it).

Option in config files to switch it would be helpful.

 

[Funak]

C4DF is still in development, and so is the CPP. Deal valuation is in constant flux as old bugs are removed and new things added, so – until that ends – I'm leaving tech trading enabled by default. Not sure why this is an issue at all, to be honest – one button click and you can play however you want. The reason I keep it defaulted to on in the CBP is for testing purposes, I've been quite clear about that in the past.

It is not a big deal, but it's just as 'not a big deal' to enable it if you like tech-trading, and from what I've gathered most people seem to prefer RAs, so it would lead to less work for the majority of the playerbase instead of the minority.

My bigger concern is still that it scares off potential newbies, if there is no clear advantage to either option (which I really don't see in this case) it's better to leave something the way people are familiar with (as in vanilla).

The problem is that by forgetting to switch it, I may ruin my game (I can't prevent myself from exploiting it).

Option in config files to switch it would be helpful.

This is also a thing, over the last couple of months I've had to abandon maybe 10 games because I realized I couldn't make RAs around half way into the game, and I'm probably not alone in this.

 

[Putmalk]

Option in config files to switch it would be helpful.

This is the work I said I can/will take on, setting it up so a simple switch can enable however you'd like.

 

[Gazebo]

It is not a big deal, but it's just as 'not a big deal' to enable it if you like tech-trading, and from what I've gathered most people seem to prefer RAs, so it would lead to less work for the majority of the playerbase instead of the minority.

My bigger concern is still that it scares off potential newbies, if there is no clear advantage to either option (which I really don't see in this case) it's better to leave something the way people are familiar with (as in vanilla).



This is also a thing, over the last couple of months I've had to abandon maybe 10 games because I realized I couldn't make RAs around half way into the game, and I'm probably not alone in this.

I think you may have missed my point, so I'll reiterate. We can't test the tech trading AI without testers. If we disable it, we won't have testers. If we don't have testers, the AI will not improve, and we cannot make it a viable option to choose either tech trading or research agreements. Some players may like it, others may not. But we cannot make it a viable option without proper testing.

I'm sorry that you forget to change your preferences in your games, but that's just not my problem.

G

 

[PerryCaravello]

I really don't see the problem here. I prefer tech trading myself but I wouldn't care either way if it was enabled or disabled by default. I do not find clicking the button to be difficult. We have better things to concern ourselves with then clicking a button.

 

[Funak]

I think you may have missed my point, so I'll reiterate. We can't test the tech trading AI without testers. If we disable it, we won't have testers. If we don't have testers, the AI will not improve, and we cannot make it a viable option to choose either tech trading or research agreements. Some players may like it, others may not. But we cannot make it a viable option without proper testing.

It doesn't really matter, to be honest, if everyone disables it you're not going to have testers either, if someone who doesn't want it leaves it on by accident all you're going to hear about it is hate, swears, threats and so on.

I'm sorry that you forget to change your preferences in your games, but that's just not my problem.

No, but it's a problem that a lot of people face at one point or another, and it could be avoided.

 

[Putmalk]

It doesn't really matter, to be honest, if everyone disables it you're not going to have testers either, if someone who doesn't want it leaves it on by accident all you're going to hear about it is hate, swears, threats and so on.

And if it comes down to people threatening people who mod in their own free time as their passion, then let them. If that will satisfy their sad lives, I'm fine with it, but it doesn't make something more of a priority.

The fact of the matter is, this is already a low priority (I speak for myself) as I will spend my time developing other features. When I get around to programming the switch I will, but right now I want to focus on other, more important things.