Research speed cap?

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think that the only thing that needs doing to balance monasteries is to make them only work if their religion is your state religion. That should solve Charles' problem without annoying JosEPh too much.

Except, you will upset me a great deal.

@JosEPh:

I apologize for misreading your earlier comments. I do however think that having monasteries only work with your state religion enabled OR with Free Church (I think we can do that with the Expression system now) would be a good idea, as that is how it was/is IRL.

Rubbish, there are many cases where monasteries get on fine. Your monotheistic view of the world is skewed. Even in a monotheistic society there are multiple monasteries of differing sects.

 

[Koshling]

Rubbish, there are many cases where monasteries get on fine. Your monotheistic view of the world is skewed. Even in a monotheistic society there are multiple monasteries of differing sects.

I agree. State religion could reasonably give a BOOST to its related monsatry type though (however, that's a separate point from the general balancing issue that you are tackling)

 

[Ashnazg]

Ran into another research-related bug right now, figured I'll post it in this thread too:

The score leader in my game (which is an AI) had suddenly stopped researching anything. I think it happened right after he had a revolution. I have a high enough spy score to see his research 10 times over, but the research field is blank on the mini-table on the main screen, and I cannot "sabotage research" within his city spy windows.

We also have relative tech parity, but I cannot steal anything from him for many turns now. I can only surmise that for some inexplicable reason his research stopped completely.

I tried loading WB up, giving him all medieval techs to jump-start his research, but nada. Saves won't work because it took me a while to even notice this, so my earliest autosaves now go to an already-bugged AI. Any idea what else I can do?

Thanks

 

[Koshling]

Ran into another research-related bug right now, figured I'll post it in this thread too:

The score leader in my game (which is an AI) had suddenly stopped researching anything. I think it happened right after he had a revolution. I have a high enough spy score to see his research 10 times over, but the research field is blank on the mini-table on the main screen, and I cannot "sabotage research" within his city spy windows.

We also have relative tech parity, but I cannot steal anything from him for many turns now. I can only surmise that for some inexplicable reason his research stopped completely.

I tried loading WB up, giving him all medieval techs to jump-start his research, but nada. Saves won't work because it took me a while to even notice this, so my earliest autosaves now go to an already-bugged AI. Any idea what else I can do?

Thanks

SVN version or V25? (or some earlier version?)

If it's the SVN version (or possibly if it's V25 since it might well still happen in the SVN in that case) post a save game with details of which civ has the issue and I can look into it.

Your AI logs might also tell us what is happening (assuming you have them enabled). LOg tab of the BUG options scren - set BBAI log level to 3, then load and play a few turns. The log is called BBAI.log, and will be in your BTS logs folder. It is overwritten each session.

 

[ls612]

Rubbish, there are many cases where monasteries get on fine. Your monotheistic view of the world is skewed. Even in a monotheistic society there are multiple monasteries of differing sects.

I was mostly thinking of Europe and the Arab world during the middle ages for my reasoning, but you are right to a certain extent. I'm not certain though what to do about having 20 monasteries in every city now.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I was mostly thinking of Europe and the Arab world during the middle ages for my reasoning, but you are right to a certain extent. I'm not certain though what to do about having 20 monasteries in every city now.

Do Nothing as that is not the norm!

You will get some players that will do this on a regular basis but they are Not the majority. And I've yet to find but in a few instances, of the AI ever doing it either.

The Religion portion of this mod, IMHO, does not need any more major changes. A tweak or 2 maybe such as DH's intent to remove % research from Monasteries and make them give a flat + research. (I'm willing to give that a go but I'll reserve a copy of the current system as a backup if I don't like it). For me it's one of the best systems in the mod currently. And I consider the way I use it as the base system. No Choose, No Limited, Multiple spread. Divine Prophet is a subsystem for me to use from time to time, a change of pace.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Do Nothing as that is not the norm!

You will get some players that will do this on a regular basis but they are Not the majority. And I've yet to find but in a few instances, of the AI ever doing it either.

The Religion portion of this mod, IMHO, does not need any more major changes. A tweak or 2 maybe such as DH's intent to remove % research from Monasteries and make them give a flat + research. (I'm willing to give that a go but I'll reserve a copy of the current system as a backup if I don't like it). For me it's one of the best systems in the mod currently. And I consider the way I use it as the base system. No Choose, No Limited, Multiple spread. Divine Prophet is a subsystem for me to use from time to time, a change of pace.

JosEPh

Hmm, Maybe Faces of God (if DH ever fixes his computer) will help the situation somewhat. I think though that we should fix balance 'exploits' like this, even if only a few people use them.

On a side note, what is your position on the Faces of God mod being integrated to C2C?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I really have not looked into it. That's a Sevo mod isn't it, not a Johnny Smith?

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

I really have not looked into it. That's a Sevo mod isn't it, not a Johnny Smith?

JosEPh

Yes, it was Sevo's originally.

 

[charlesb96]

What has really happened is that the % Beaker bonus for Monasteries was first designed for there only being 7 religions in the game. Now there are 26 and there are 16 religious buildings that give 10%, one for 5% and one for 20%, and every one can be built in every city if the religion is there. This is where it gets all out of hand. Perhaps change it from % to a + instead. I looked at one mouse over and building that one monastery with 10% would give me a bonus of 27 beakers. Multiply this by 16 and that is an incredible bonus. Many already give a + as well as a %, just change it so it is only a +

 

[JosEPh_II]

What has really happened is that the % Beaker bonus for Monasteries was first designed for there only being 7 religions in the game. Now there are 26 and there are 16 religious buildings that give 10%, one for 5% and one for 20%, and every one can be built in every city if the religion is there. This is where it gets all out of hand. Perhaps change it from % to a + instead. I looked at one mouse over and building that one monastery with 10% would give me a bonus of 27 beakers. Multiply this by 16 and that is an incredible bonus. Many already give a + as well as a %, just change it so it is only a +

That is Dancing Huskold's very proposal and stated objective. And since he is in charge of the Religions he will most likely implement it soon. Once he has his computer problems under control of course.

JosEPh

 

[charlesb96]

I have done this already in my game, if anyone wants to try it and use it I include it here. This is what I have done.
Buddhist, Christian, Confucian, Hellenic, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Kemetism, Nagaulism, Taoist, Yoruba, and Zoroastrian: Monasteries have the 10% beaker boost removed, and now give +3 beakers, non obsolete.
Andean Monastery and Cathedral has 10% beaker boost removed and now gives +5 beakers, non obsolete, (already gave +2 beakers).
Andean Temple has 5% beaker boost removed and now gives +4 beakers, non obsolete, (already gave +1 beaker).
Confucian Cathedral has 20% beaker boost removed and now gives +7 beakers, non-obsolete.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have to ask this, what makes the Andean and Confucian so much smarter in research than other religions?

And is 3 beakers a fair amount?

JosEPh

 

[charlesb96]

I am making it +3 instead of 10%, I have to play test to see if that will work or needs more. But I feel 3 is good, it will give you a boost at the beginning but not an overwhelming boost later on.

 

[Koshling]

I have to ask this, what makes the Andean and Confucian so much smarter in research than other religions?

And is 3 beakers a fair amount?

JosEPh

Each religion has different benefits (mostly just for gameplay reasons - don't read too much into it!). These two alwasy had science-benfits as their flavour bonus (others provide promotions, health, etc.)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have done this already in my game, if anyone wants to try it and use it I include it here. This is what I have done.
Buddhist, Christian, Confucian, Hellenic, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Kemetism, Nagaulism, Taoist, Yoruba, and Zoroastrian: Monasteries have the 10% beaker boost removed, and now give +3 beakers, non obsolete.
Andean Monastery and Cathedral has 10% beaker boost removed and now gives +5 beakers, non obsolete, (already gave +2 beakers).
Andean Temple has 5% beaker boost removed and now gives +4 beakers, non obsolete, (already gave +1 beaker).
Confucian Cathedral has 20% beaker boost removed and now gives +7 beakers, non-obsolete.

That will save me some coding, although I had started. Thanks. I still want to give them a boost in the medieval and renaissance. And do it as a mod to start with so people can play with it.