Research varying depending on what tech I choose to research?

[Zincat]

Ok, I have this strange thing happening in my game here.

I will say first that it's not a game started in v28. I started it back in v26 because I'm playing it with a friend, just a few hours a week. If needed I can provide a save where this strange thing happens.

So, basically I am at research 100% and the amount of research produced, as shown in he upper left corner, changes depending on what tech I decide to research.
I am currently between the ancient and the classical era, and I'm looking at techs that have 0 research points up to now.

If I choose to research...
- Folk music or folk dance, research is 2024/turn
- Oratory, Candle making, research is 1989/turn
- Shinto, research is 1764/turn
- Glass blowing, research is 2127/turn
and so on

Why? What is happening here? Is the number shown simply wrong, maybe because it's doing some strange calculations with the overflows that will be present when I finish researching them? Or is it something else?

 

[Koshling]

Ok, I have this strange thing happening in my game here.

I will say first that it's not a game started in v28. I started it back in v26 because I'm playing it with a friend, just a few hours a week. If needed I can provide a save where this strange thing happens.

So, basically I am at research 100% and the amount of research produced, as shown in he upper left corner, changes depending on what tech I decide to research.
I am currently between the ancient and the classical era, and I'm looking at techs that have 0 research points up to now.

If I choose to research...
- Folk music or folk dance, research is 2024/turn
- Oratory, Candle making, research is 1989/turn
- Shinto, research is 1764/turn
- Glass blowing, research is 2127/turn
and so on

Why? What is happening here? Is the number shown simply wrong, maybe because it's doing some strange calculations with the overflows that will be present when I finish researching them? Or is it something else?

It's to do with diffusion from other civs. You get a rate boost for techs that are widely known, whereas it's harder to research things new to the world.

 

[Zincat]

It's to do with diffusion from other civs. You get a rate boost for techs that are widely known, whereas it's harder to research things new to the world.

Oh I see, that's interesting. But I had absolutely no idea. Is it written anywhere and I missed it perhaps? I'm not at home right now so I can't check

If not, I think it really should because that is quite interesting to know. You can use this to monitor the civilizations you do not know of early in the game. Maybe a civopedia entry?

 

[Koshling]

Oh I see, that's interesting. But I had absolutely no idea. Is it written anywhere and I missed it perhaps? I'm not at home right now so I can't check

If not, I think it really should because that is quite interesting to know. You can use this to monitor the civilizations you do not know of early in the game. Maybe a civopedia entry?

I honestly don't know if/where it is documented!

 

[Zincat]

Well, it seems to me the civopedia DOES need work then

I wonder how many people know about this... 2%? XD

I understand that many people are mostly interested in the war, but I belong to the "builders" instead, and I do notice these things

 

[God-Emperor]

In regular BtS the amount varies too, it just doesn't show it in the research/turn number; but if you look at the number of turns to get techs you can see some variance. This is due to a typical "hidden modifier" in BtS: you get discounts in cost for a tech if you know more prereqs. This includes required prereqs, so a tech with 2 (requires X and Y) will effectively get you more RP/turn while researching it than one that only has one (requires Z). In C2C most techs have only 1 or 2 prereqs, but a few have more and a few have optional prereqs (multiple arrows from other techs, like the animal riding tech) which leads to a little note something like "speeds up tech A" in the hover help.

This preexisting modifier may now be being reported as an effective research point rate increase instead of a tech cost reduction (which never actually shows up directly anywhere in BtS - it always reports the same cost regardless of how many of the prereqs you know and you need to compare the number of turns it takes to research things vs. the claimed cost to notice it). Anybody know if this is the case?

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is due to a typical "hidden modifier" in BtS: you get discounts in cost for a tech if you know more prereqs.

Really? You learn something new (that you should've known for years!!) every day it seems.

If its displayed its on a research bar hoverover most likely.

There's also research rate modifiers based on tech that CAN be applied by some game objects. I added a tag for that in Traits but I'm not sure if there's a display for it now (been a little bit since I put it in now... can't recall if that was added as well.) I noticed there was another class with this tag somewhere if memory serves me.

Tech diffusion is also a game option and it mentions the effect in the option list on a hoverover but it doesn't get too explanatory and yes, we know the civopedia needs further work. Nobody here really specializes in making sure the pedia is properly maintained but we could sure use a person who does!

 

[ls612]

It also has to do with what era the tech is in, later eras make you research slower generally.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It also has to do with what era the tech is in, later eras make you research slower generally.

Does that affect all techs (aka, once you've researched up to a new era all techs slow down some) or is it just the techs in the current era? Might be a good strategy note to avoid hitting new eras before you've caught up on the techs in a given era...

 

[ls612]

Does that affect all techs (aka, once you've researched up to a new era all techs slow down some) or is it just the techs in the current era? Might be a good strategy note to avoid hitting new eras before you've caught up on the techs in a given era...

I actually don't know, from empirical ovservation it seems that the latter effect is what happens (and what I'd like to happen). If it isn't, tell me and I'll change it.

 

[Zincat]

Hrm it sounds as if the calculations of the research points per turn is complex indeed.

I became curious, so I went and took notes of all the techs I can research as of now. Since I am more or less the runaway civ in technology as of now, I'm rather sure there are a few techs that nobody has. I have ALL the prerequisites for these techs.

These are the classical era techs I can research.
- Aristocracy. Classical era. 3 prerequisites. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Literature. Classical era. 3 prerequisites (but 2 needed only). Almost sure nobody has it. 2249 rp/turn
- Construction. Classical era. 2 prerequisites. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Ship building. Classical era. 2 prerequisites. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Road building. Classical era. 1 prerequisite. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Athletics. Classical age. 1 prerequisite. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Cloud patterns. Classical era. 1 prerequisite. Almost sure nobody has it. 1730 rp/turn
- Glass blowing. Classical era. 2 prerequisite. I know 4 civs on my continent alone have it. 2127 rp/turn

So from these results it seems to me that:
- Prerequisites number does not matter.
- The "standard" research rate is 1989 rp/turn
- Glass blowing is probably changed by the fact a lot of civ have it, and so I get more points (+6,93% in fact)
- Literature and cloud patterns change, but I do not know why. Literature gets 260 rp more (+13,07%), cloud patters -259 (-13,04%). Since these variations, in rp, are basically identical, I will assume they are in fact a result of the same formula, and there's a difference on 1 rp due to rounding most likely. This is VERY curious since I don't know what is changing the cost of these techs.

Now, the ancient era techs I still need.
- Folk dance. Ancient era. 2 prerequisites. At least one civ has it. 2024 rp/turn
- Folk music. Ancient era. 2 prerequisites. At least one civ has it. 2024 rp/turn
- Oratory. Ancient era. 2 prerequisites. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Candle making. Ancient era. 1 prerequisite. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Shinto. Ancient era. 1 prerequisite. Many civs have it. 1764 rp/turn
- Ngaaism. Ancient era. 1 prerequisite. Almost sure nobody has it. 1730 rp/turn
- Resurrection. Ancient era. 2 prerequisite. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Sundial. Ancient era. 2 prerequisites. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn
- Karma. Ancient era. 2 prerequisites. Almost sure nobody has it. 1989 rp/turn

From this I gather that:
- Prerequisites number do not matter
- The "standard" research rate is 1989 rp/turn
- A couple of tech (Shinto and ngaaism) have 1730 (the same number as cloud patterns above), + 34 points for shinto due to many civs knowing it
- Folk dance and music have 2024, that is 35 rp more than the norm. This is pratically the same increase as shinto, which means an equal number of civs as for shinto know these 2 techs.

Now let us combine all these observations
- My standard research rate seems to be 1989 rp/turn
- The era of the tech does NOT matter as far as rp/turn is concerned. All tech no matter what the era gain 1989 rp/turn base, though maybe ALL the tech have slowed down once I reached classical era. I have no way to check this
- Prerequisites number does NOT matter
- There is one tech (literature) with a base rp/turn of 2249 (+13,07%), and three (cloud patterns, shinto, ngaaism) with a base rp/turn of 1730 (-13,04%). Due to the similar numbers, these most likely depends from the same formula. But I have no idea what the cause is.
- The techs which are known to other do get a slight rp gain. Shinto, Folk dance, Folk music gain 34 and 35. Glass blowing gains 138, supposedly because a lot more civs know it. Or maybe due to the era, glass blowing gets more points and it's the only one of the classical era. Or maybe due to something else, I don't know.

Hope this all will be of use for the powers that be

P.S.
About this

We know the civopedia needs further work. Nobody here really specializes in making sure the pedia is properly maintained but we could sure use a person who does!

Put an ad requesting someone out. You might be lucky, since it doesn't really require coding, just time... Wish I could help myself, but time is an issue.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There was even an mod out there that made research less if you had the correct resources eg copper working was easier to learn if you had copper. I don't think anyone used it but I thought it was interesting. It would have some consequences for C2C where the resource is often given with the tech it becomes usable, except for one.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I actually don't know, from empirical ovservation it seems that the latter effect is what happens (and what I'd like to happen). If it isn't, tell me and I'll change it.

- The era of the tech does NOT matter as far as rp/turn is concerned. All tech no matter what the era gain 1989 rp/turn base, though maybe ALL the tech have slowed down once I reached classical era. I have no way to check this

Looks like this is how its behaving then.

- There is one tech (literature) with a base rp/turn of 2249 (+13,07%), and three (cloud patterns, shinto, ngaaism) with a base rp/turn of 1730 (-13,04%). Due to the similar numbers, these most likely depends from the same formula. But I have no idea what the cause is.

Perhaps it has to do with:

There's also research rate modifiers based on tech that CAN be applied by some game objects. I added a tag for that in Traits but I'm not sure if there's a display for it now (been a little bit since I put it in now... can't recall if that was added as well.) I noticed there was another class with this tag somewhere if memory serves me.

I don't know if those tags have been used in any fashion yet. Could be good to figure out where a display can explain this effect for the player though. And could also be good to make sure we know exactly where your well noted discrepancies are stemming from in general. Make sure its design intent somewhere.

Put an ad requesting someone out. You might be lucky, since it doesn't really require coding, just time... Wish I could help myself, but time is an issue.

Yeah, but things are in such constant flux in C2C it drives anyone who tries it mad I think

There was even an mod out there that made research less if you had the correct resources eg copper working was easier to learn if you had copper. I don't think anyone used it but I thought it was interesting. It would have some consequences for C2C where the resource is often given with the tech it becomes usable, except for one.

Yes.. good idea I think except that you often can't access the bonus until you have the tech that then enables you to access it so it could warrant some new techs and adjustments to the tree to pull it off. A tag, BonusResearchModifier on the tech could make this very programmable and such a tag would be easy.

 

[Faustmouse]

Yes.. good idea I think except that you often can't access the bonus until you have the tech that then enables you to access it so it could warrant some new techs and adjustments to the tree to pull it off. A tag, BonusResearchModifier on the tech could make this very programmable and such a tag would be easy.

You don't need the excact ressource for speeding up a tech I think. IE Camels to speed up Camel Domestication. If you domesticaed Horses (and have them) earlier, you'd get a bonus to Camel Domestication. Same would go for metall working techs like Ironworking with Copper, Metallurugy with various Metall Resources, Wooden ship techs with Prime Timber, Motorized Transportation/Flight etc with Oil Products etc...

And I'd still love to see buildings as tech requirements like 5 total Micro Biological Labs to research Genetics.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think that last thing can be done but I'm not sure its based on a count of the buildings so much as you have it somewhere or you don't.

I could do the BonusResearchModifier if others are willing to do the work of tech tree analysis to map out how to properly implement it and then apply it in the xml end.

 

[sp00n]

Be extra careful with anything that requires a certain amount of buildings, you'd be effectively preventing some more exotic strategies from working (i.e. the OCC, which does already hardly work as of now. Probably best to just remove the option).

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

If the required number of buildings is properly scaled to map size (and certain game options like OCC) it should work fine. That will be the tricky part though.

 

[ls612]

Looks like this is how its behaving then.

OK, I'll fix that probably during the freeze.

 

[Thunderbrd]

No... I think its working as you'd prefer it did, to adjust the rate on all techs, not just the ones of the era you've reached. Unless I've mistaken what you stated your preference was.

 

[ls612]

No... I think its working as you'd prefer it did, to adjust the rate on all techs, not just the ones of the era you've reached. Unless I've mistaken what you stated your preference was.

No, the way it is working actually provides a disincentive to advance eras. I want it only to apply to the era of the tech, not the era you are in.