Return of Carthage, with who?

[halfhalfharp]

Carthage had been an important civilization in the classical world. It descended from Phoenician colonies and was a seafaring power with trade routes all over the Mediterranean. Being too rich and influential, it became the only rival to the rising Rome. Although it is now a City State in Civ6, I guess it is a very important player in the ancient-classical world. Missing it in the game makes me feel a bit disappointed. Let's discuss how should we fit it into the new system, and hopefully get it into the next DLC?

Here are my suggestions for the civ:

Spoiler Civilization ability :

Civilization Unique Ability: Phoenician Trade League
-For international trade, every improved luxury in the starting city +1 gold for Carthage city and +1 amenity to the target city.

-If the two civs are at alliance, the trade routes start from that target city gain this extra gold as well, while it becomes doubles for Carthage.

-Trade routes will not be pillaged automatically and can still be set up to civs at war. If any civ actively pillage a Carthage trade route, war weariness of that civ +1 per trade route plunged.

Notes: This is based on the strength in trade of Carthage and possibly all the Phoenician colonies. They had plenty of natural resources and luxuries, which they could monopoly for a huge profit. They also applied principle of isolating trade from other matters. That means even if nations are at war, the trade routes are still protected by the government.
The Carthaginians are sea-adapted people. But currently waters and navies in Civ6 are too weak for any sea-based civs to work too well (look at Norway, look at their uniques). So I decided to make the unique ability a less sea-dependent one, in order to make Carthage playable even without seas.

Spoiler Unique District :

Unique District: Cothon
-replaces harbor, +1 production for every adjacent district and resources. Able to bombard ranged attack when the city has ancient walls.

Notes: This is the famous military harbor that Carthage once had. I turn it into a district rather than a wonder to give the civ a more general bonus.

Spoiler Unique Unit :

Unique Unit: Quinquereme
-replaces quadrireme. stronger then normal quadrireme and allows embarked land range units to attack.

Notes: I have been struggling to make the War Elephants or the Quinquereme for Carthage. The problem is if we go for the war elephants, it will not be so accurate for a Carthage without strong navies. But I am afraid that in Pangaea maps, Carthage will suffer from the "Norway Syndrome", so I leave this open to your opinions.

Spoiler Strength :

Carthage's strength lies in trades and hopefully this trade will give an alliance.

The UD is a sea-based one so it depends a bit luck in positioning and seas. If placed carefully, it can provide a lot of productions, almost equal to industrial zones in the early game. That makes it very powerful with seas. Even without a lot of ocean tiles Carthage can build this district to harness its production bonus, making it not heavily sea dependent.

The UU allows conquest by sea, which may not see a lot of usage in Civ6, but anyway its there lol.

Leaders:
Currently due to my scarce knowledge of the Carthage history, I only have two candidates in mind to present.
One is the ruler and founder in her own right, Dido.
Another is Hannibal, one of the greatest general of all time and suffet of Carthage, I know he is favored by many of us.

Spoiler Dido :

LUA: Wanderer of Tyre

-Gain a free settler when she clears a barbarian camp or a tribal village. Settling a new city immediately fills her treasury with 200 gold.
-This cannot happen more than 4 times and cannot occur when there is an existing settler.

Playstyle: Dido's strength lies in early game settling and development. Possibly with those 4 cities settled and decent amount of gold, she can improve luxuries quickly and pull up trade routes to harness Carthage's CUA.

Notes: This is based on her tales of gaining a huge sum of treasure from her late husband and buying lands from local chiefdom, which she used to build the future Carthage.

Spoiler Hannibal :

LUA: Military Genius

-Gain a great general/admiral for the first encampment/cothon built.
-Great generals allow units to cross terrains (including moutains) without hindrance and ignore enemies' terrain bonus to combat strength. Every combat victory +1 great general point.

Opitonal: Or maybe he can also have the war elephant unique unit, replacing the Quinquereme.

You are surely all welcome to suggest more, as I really have little to offer for Carthage leaders.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If War Elephants were to return it would be a UU as part of Hannibal's ability. But yes they need a UU naval unit.
I might be in the minority but I've posted it before that the Cothon could also easily be an earlier Shipyard replacement instead of a UD. That's depending on if they decide to not duplicate unique districts of the same type, because England already has a Unique Harbor.
Although the Cothon is in no doubt a harbor by definition, I could still see it visually representing it as a shipyard replacement. If that was the case I could see them getting an extra trade route capacity from the Cothon as well as the bonuses from the production of ships that a regular shipyard would have. It could also give them the ability to defend themselves better as well.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Hannibal was a suffet at one point, kind of the Carthaginian equivalent to the Roman consul.

So he wasn't "only a general."

 

[halfhalfharp]

Your suggestions are reasonable.

If War Elephants were to return it would be a UU as part of Hannibal's ability

Yeah, lets leave this option open to Hannibal too.

If War Elephants were to return it would be a UU as part of Hannibal's ability. But yes they need a UU naval unit.
I might be in the minority but I've posted it before that the Cothon could also easily be an earlier Shipyard replacement instead of a UD. That's depending on if they decide to not duplicate unique districts of the same type, because England already has a Unique Harbor.
Although the Cothon is in no doubt a harbor by definition, I could still see it visually representing it as a shipyard replacement. If that was the case I could see them getting an extra trade route capacity from the Cothon as well as the bonuses from the production of ships that a regular shipyard would have. It could also give them the ability to defend themselves better as well.

Em... I think UDs are duplicable? For there are only 7-8 types of districts but we have 40 civilizations in total...

An earlier shipyard replacement that gives extra trade route sounds fit to the design. But increasing ship-building ability may not be really useful.
Despite the weakness of naval warfare in Civ6, early naval units (like the Quinquereme UU) do not need too much production to construct.
It won't give a significant difference if it is not a 100% boost, say, cutting the construction time from 6 to 3.

And district building needs more planning and luck. I sort of think that it will be better than a granted bonus from unique buildings.
Also, extra production is more useful than shipbuilding bonus, allowing more flexibility for Carthage.

But I also wonder if they will duplicate UD too. So, yeah, your advice is also very useful.

 

[halfhalfharp]

Hannibal was a suffet at one point, kind of the Carthaginian equivalent to the Roman consul.

So he wasn't "only a general."

Oh really? I should change it then. Because all I have read for Hannibal said that his highest rank was Chief-general something.

 

[Siptah]

As always, some additional suggestions: Hanno the Navigator and Mago I for a Carthage with a leader bonus towards exploration and colonization. A Magonid ruler would be a nice addition to the old and well-known faces.

Cothon is nice. Numidian cavalry would be an option for the UU.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Em... I think UDs are duplicable? For there are only 7-8 types of districts but we have 40 civilizations in total...

We haven't seen it yet, but it could be. They recently did it with buildings for the first time. There are 14 different districts so it's possible, since I believe most Districts will eventually get a Unique Replacement anyway, barring the city center, aerodrome, and spaceport.
Alternatively they could have just made the Royal Navy Dockyard a shipyard replacement, to give Carthage the unique Harbor, but oh well.

 

[halfhalfharp]

As always, some additional suggestions: Hanno the Navigator and Mago I for a Carthage with a leader bonus towards exploration and colonization. A Magonid ruler would be a nice addition to the old and well-known faces.

Cothon is nice. Numidian cavalry would be an option for the UU.

Emmm.... I will try to make use of them, thx for enriching my knowledge.

 

[halfhalfharp]

We haven't seen it yet, but it could be. They recently did it with buildings for the first time. There are 14 different districts so it's possible, since I believe most Districts will eventually get a Unique Replacement anyway, barring the city center, aerodrome, and spaceport.
Alternatively they could have just made the Royal Navy Dockyard a shipyard replacement, to give Carthage the unique Harbor, but oh well.

I didn't know that we have so many districts in the game.... Maybe I just focused too much on mostly, 8 of them. ( I dont really think spaceport can have a replacement, you know, such late game advantage gives a disastrous early game.)

I hope they can reduce the RND into a unique building or give double district allowance to Carthage.

But we can always have a backup plan of turning the Cothon into unique building, although the military harbor is actually quite large in size to be called a building, as if calling the whole St Marco Plazza a building.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I didn't know that we have so many districts in the game.... Maybe I just focused too much on mostly, 8 of them. ( I dont really think spaceport can have a replacement, you know, such late game advantage gives a disastrous early game.)

I only know because of the achievement District 12: Build all 12 districts in one city and the Colosseum.
Not sure if the city center counts as one of the 12, even though it is considered a district. But with R&F it will go up to 14.

 

[Morningcalm]

I am in the minority (in this forum at the least) and wouldn't mind Dido returning. That being said, Hannibal is iconic and has clearer agenda opportunities for Civ VI purposes so I expect he will represent Carthage if he returns.

While Hannibal is famous for his elephant march across the Alps, his Numidian cavalry were arguably more important to his victories, so I would favor them as a unique Civ unit with Hannibal getting an elephant unique unit. The Numidian cavalry could be ranged units weakened in melee and have more movement and the ability to move after firing. Re: elephants, Hannibal did know the value of using elephants to disrupt enemy formations (Scipio knew Hannibal would try this, so in their final battle he had his men simply open up lines for the elephants to harmlessly pass through his troops, and ultimately Hannibal was defeated). I will also point out that Carthage's military had many mercenaries in its service (the Numidian cavalry being arguably the most potent of them).

Carthage could simply get a bonus to ships instead of a unique ship unit if needed IMO, but it is true that the majority of their military was naval.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Since the objective is big personalities, Hannibal is the obvious choice. Personalities don't get any bigger than that.

Unless they tap into mythology, Dido is just a name on a page, same as Gilgamesh. And I recall people being displeased with Gilgabro's portrayal.

 

[Havendish]

Carthage's Unique Unit: Quinquereme

Unique Tile Improvement: Cothon

Great Leader: Hannibal

Leader Unique Unit: Carthaginian War Elephant

Carthaginian Ability should be a significant naval commerce boost.
Perhaps their ships could have +1 movement bonus.

Hannibal's Ability should involve a flanking bonus for land troops (Crossing of the Alps)

 

[Nalain]

Some leader gives an extra UU, why not add the elephant to Hannibal ?

 

[The Kingmaker]

Hannibal's Ability should involve a flanking bonus for land troops (Crossing of the Alps)

Should be able to cross mountains.

Some leader gives an extra UU, why not add the elephant to Hannibal ?

They should. That feature was practically made for this.

 

[halfhalfharp]

Since the objective is big personalities, Hannibal is the obvious choice. Personalities don't get any bigger than that.

Unless they tap into mythology, Dido is just a name on a page, same as Gilgamesh. And I recall people being displeased with Gilgabro's portrayal.

Not that plain actually, Dido had a vivid character in the Aeneid, although after all, myths.

And she was very possible to exist actually, as she was mentioned in a lot of different accounts, from roman, greek and tyrian historians.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Not that plain actually, Dido had a vivid character in the Aeneid, although after all, myths.

And she was very possible to exist actually, as she was mentioned in a lot of different accounts, from roman, greek and tyrian historians.

But that's exactly my point. We'd have to rely on mythology to give her a personality, the same as was done with Gilgamesh... and nobody liked how that turned out.

 

[halfhalfharp]

I am in the minority (in this forum at the least) and wouldn't mind Dido returning. That being said, Hannibal is iconic and has clearer agenda opportunities for Civ VI purposes so I expect he will represent Carthage if he returns.

While Hannibal is famous for his elephant march across the Alps, his Numidian cavalry were arguably more important to his victories, so I would favor them as a unique Civ unit with Hannibal getting an elephant unique unit. The Numidian cavalry could be ranged units weakened in melee and have more movement and the ability to move after firing. Re: elephants, Hannibal did know the value of using elephants to disrupt enemy formations (Scipio knew Hannibal would try this, so in their final battle he had his men simply open up lines for the elephants to harmlessly pass through his troops, and ultimately Hannibal was defeated). I will also point out that Carthage's military had many mercenaries in its service (the Numidian cavalry being arguably the most potent of them).

Carthage could simply get a bonus to ships instead of a unique ship unit if needed IMO, but it is true that the majority of their military was naval.

Thanks for the support. I like to see Dido too although she act like a b***h in V, all those backstabbing... I favor these 2 candidates equally.

Umm... The Numidian cavalry is sth new to me. And it is a good suggestion too. I know Hannibal is good at skirmishing and harassment so this unique can be a good addition.

Just I am worrying where should we place it. It will be crashing with Mongol if it replaces with knights. If it replaces horseman than both Egypt and Scythia unique will seem shadowed by this mighty unit.

 

[halfhalfharp]

But that's exactly my point. We'd have to rely on mythology to give her a personality, the same as was done with Gilgamesh... and nobody liked how that turned out.

I think Gilgabro is a bit different from Dido. He was only mentioned in an epic that obviously didnt aim to record history. On the other hand, Dido was mentioned by many historians, so she was more historical than mythological in nature.

And for personalities... look at Montezuma, Gitarja, and probably some others.

They don't really have a personality depiction in their recorded history. Sometimes we just need to turn to imaginations, I suppose. And there is no shame to turn to mythological accounts. (But not to create a character and an entire civ purely with mythology, like Gilgamesh)

But yes, Hannibal had a better depiction of personality, because historians wrote about him.

 

[The Kingmaker]

If you guys really want Carthage back, best go support them in the Missing Civs poll in the main forum.