revealing resources

[home_office]

Each time you step on a tile with a resource/bonus you have a percentage chance of discovering it. This will be say a base 10% chance, with techs, civ-level or unit-level enhancements which increase the odds. (After all, a tile is a big area, and you aren't necessarily going to stumble on it immediately). I think that city-radius tiles would naturally be uncovered by being worked (with the same or higher chance per turn). Therefore you are reasonably unlikely to find something outside your territory unless its on a commonly tredded path. Workers performing actions on a tile would also increase the odds.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, I wouldn't know what was within my city radius unless: a) one of my units entered the tile and "happened" to discover it - the odds being higher than if the resource was outside a city radius; or b) one of my workers (who didn't discover it when entering the tile) builds an improvement on the tile and "happens" to discover it - i.e., even in this case the odds of discovering the resource would be less than 100%? Or is it when the improvement is done I will discover what is there - 100% chance? I like the idea of having low odds of discovering a generic resource outside my current cities to avoid the problem of founding cities to get an as yet unknown resource. But I think that given the appropriate tech(s) I should somehow be able to get a 100% chance of seeing what is within my territory.

 

[home_office]

So you can discover coal, before you have the techs to use it.

So I'm assuming this means: no generic resource markers? Either you can see specifically what is there or nothing?

And apart from the question of generic resource markers this proposed system raises a very interesting point with respect to game play. Now at the start I like to rush to Bronze Working and Iron Working, not only to get the military units but also to see which other civs have copper and/or iron within their territories - as I can see at least some tiles within their territories by exploring just outside the boundary - i.e., I don't have to step on the tile to see what's there. So it seems under this system I would not be able to see resources within another civ's territory unless I had stepped on the tile containing the resource and happened to discover it before the tile became incorporated into the other civ's territory. This would be a setback to me as far as deciding which other civs to attack and when - ideally I want to attack another civ if it has copper or iron before it gets the tech to exploit it. To me this issue is akin to whether or not I should be able to see the units stationed in another civ's city before I attack without sending in a Spy ahead of time. As played now I have a bounty of intel on resources and units without engaging in espionage. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic advantage.

 

[CivMyWay]

Bare in mind, all of this is subject to tweaking You raise some good points home_office, allow me to clarify a few others:

I just realised a main problem in us understanding each other. I have a divergent view of territory. My simplified definition of territory is in addition to city radius land, a player should also be able to "claim" land around it, the land which is closest to a particular city belongs to it, and the whole area can be a region. (This could be improved/unimproved).

You can discover a resource in these ways:

• By getting lucky and discovering it when you enter a tile with a resource. (% chance)
• If it is within the city radius then you will have a very high chance of discovering it (e.g. 50%) if the tile is being worked by a population point (e.g. gathering resources from it).
• If your unit spends significant time in a tile (e.g. build a tile improvement, fortify, sentry etc) then you will have a much higher chance of discovering it.
• (NEW) By trading maps "with resources" flagged
• Early "huts" might also reveal resources
• By performing "investigation" action (for surface/near-surface) resources (this should be automated, so a special worker/survey unit can do an exhaustive analysis of your land)
• In later game, performing core drilling

This may prove too difficult in game play, but it is more realistic and challenging. (Think of a continent/country like Australia; it was claimed by the British, but not fully explored for a very long time. Just because it is in your territory, if its not near a city then no one may venture anywhere in it for quite some time.

I think you raise a good point about the tedium of searching ones own territory. Perhaps it should be part of the tech (ergo development) tree, where you can select it; the amount of time it takes to research would be dependent on how many unexplored tiles you have within your territory. So... you can basically do this same tech as many times as you want; because your territory will expand. (My concepts around technology allow for a pool of "optional" techs than are created because of game events, and can be researched at any stage, so this would fit into it nicely). Alternatively it could be a city-project (in the build queue) which investigates the region. (So you have the option of either doing a research-all-my-land (development tree) or research-just-this-bit.

Yes, this idea is separate to genetic markers - you don't see squat until you actually find it.

Do people think that you should also have a percentage chance of discovering resources within the visual sight radius of the unit??

Will reply to your second post later (got to run), but I like some of the points you raise!

 

[CivMyWay]

So I'm assuming this means: no generic resource markers? Either you can see specifically what is there or nothing?

And apart from the question of generic resource markers this proposed system raises a very interesting point with respect to game play. Now at the start I like to rush to Bronze Working and Iron Working, not only to get the military units but also to see which other civs have copper and/or iron within their territories - as I can see at least some tiles within their territories by exploring just outside the boundary - i.e., I don't have to step on the tile to see what's there. So it seems under this system I would not be able to see resources within another civ's territory unless I had stepped on the tile containing the resource and happened to discover it before the tile became incorporated into the other civ's territory. This would be a setback to me as far as deciding which other civs to attack and when - ideally I want to attack another civ if it has copper or iron before it gets the tech to exploit it. To me this issue is akin to whether or not I should be able to see the units stationed in another civ's city before I attack without sending in a Spy ahead of time. As played now I have a bounty of intel on resources and units without engaging in espionage. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic advantage.

That is correct, generic resource markers was an entire other idea.

Well I think we should introduce the ability to trade known whereabouts of resources (even in enemy territory), and a civ in trade negotiations should have the ability to hide certain items.

I can see what you're saying - because you naturally also conquer their resource-cities asap and clean up the rest later. As for should this information be freely available (as well as defending troops)...I don't think it should be.
If you send a spy into a city, they should be able to see city buildings, troop disposition and any resources that has been discovered by that civ in that region.

This could be handled for all those who don't like micromanagement by requesting a "military assessment" of an enemy, the computer then works on a basis of how much money or turns allocated to the task, creates and moves the necessary spies. If a person isn't willing to spend any money on the intelligence; then they just have to wait until existing spies are manoeuvred into position.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I do not want to see wheat or rice till I discover agriculture; the same for silver or gold regarding mining..

 

[Camikaze]

I guess it would really make sense to not be able to see all resources until their respective techs. I mean, there is the argument that these things were obviously visible to people even when they were unusable, but there were also many other things visible, and they aren't shown. Not showing resources until they can be utilised would, I guess, be a reasonably sensible solution, although it ignores the aforementioned visibility of the resources. However, it takes into account the more important ideas of knowing what to do with resources and differentiating them from other resources.

 

[classical_hero]

Interesting - I thought of the example of uranium too - something that would be known or "seen" much earlier in history than technology would allow it to be exploited for nuclear power. So I think this is consistent with CivMyWay's idea of a generic resource label - "here is an unusual rock/mineral." If not within the borders of your existing cities, you might be inclined to found a new city to get this "unusual rock/mineral" even though not yet knowing what it is - knowing it is there and hoping/believing that it will prove useful some day. Your decision whether or not to found your new city to include this as yet unknown resource would be an indication of your game strategy - are you seeking short-term victory by exploiting known resources and disregarding or downplaying the importance of later techs - or are you seeking long-term victory and wish to assure that you will have access to resources that you as yet don't understand because they will probably prove useful/critical in future ages?

If we are going to have that, we need to make sure that not all tiles that are interesting yield things that are useful and thus it just means it is just an ordinary hill with something in it unusual, thus we don't get cities where needed resource is, and thus keep things still a guess as to where useful resources are. We can have similar tiles to oil that have a bubbling substance and it could be just nothing.

 

[home_office]

I do not want to see wheat or rice till I discover agriculture; the same for silver or gold regarding mining..

I agree with not seeing silver or gold until you have Mining. As I understand it, Mining is supposed to represent accessing stone as a production material i.e., "hammers." The discovery of gold and silver would be incidental to the harvesting of stone. In other words, I don't imagine that ancients invented Mining to exploit known gold and silver deposits (though again I could be wrong on this). This is consistent with my point about discovering iron and copper with Mining (and not waiting until Iron Working and Bronze Working).

However, I disagree with not seeing wheat or rice until Agriculture. I imagine that the ancients knew of and exploited primitive wheat and rice in hunter gatherer societies - just as they would have known about and exploited cows and pigs or their wild equivalents. Agriculture and Animal Husbandry were aimed at making these known resources into a more reliable source of food. Likewise I have argued that Horses should be visible at the start, as again I imagine that efforts to tame horses (which I am proposing as a new tech called Horse Taming) were intended to harness (pun intended) a known resource.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I think u have a point. I also do not know if the egg or hen come first...
In this game many things are symbolic or represent something to simplify the reality. I know if I have the knowledge and nature conditions I can have the wheat anywhwere in the empire not just one source of it. The same for horses etc. The question is what that particular source in the game represents gamevise. According to my feeling the sources should be revealed after researching particular technologies which perhaps more coresponds to the impact it has on game reality.

 

[CivMyWay]

Just to confusing things; what do people think about seeing the resource only once you have the tech, but also having to discover it (e.g. having a chance of seeing it). So until you have discovered Iron Working, you have a 0% chance of discovering it; once you have the tech, then you have the % chance of uncovering it every time you cross the tile. Or alternatively, make it a 100% chance of discovering but you MUST walk on the tile.

 

[Ramesses]

Just to confusing things; what do people think about seeing the resource only once you have the tech, but also having to discover it (e.g. having a chance of seeing it). So until you have discovered Iron Working, you have a 0% chance of discovering it; once you have the tech, then you have the % chance of uncovering it every time you cross the tile. Or alternatively, make it a 100% chance of discovering but you MUST walk on the tile.

I think it would work better if native resources (resources you find on the map) had diminished importance. One way of doing this would be to make it possible to spread resources (not counting geological resources) to other tiles.

Also, some resources should be harder to find (read: have smaller probabilities of discovery). Oil in particular.

 

[home_office]

I know if I have the knowledge and nature conditions I can have the wheat anywhwere in the empire not just one source of it. The same for horses etc.

I think this fact is somewhat represented in the game because you need only one source of a given resource to supply your whole empire. Of course you do need transportation access - as opposed to "planting" wheat or rice or "breeding" horses to make them appear on other tiles - which could be added to the game.

 

[home_office]

I think u have a point. I also do not know if the egg or hen come first...
In this game many things are symbolic or represent something to simplify the reality.

No doubt this is true. Any simulation be it a mathematical model or a video game must be in some way a simplification of reality. So I am willing to accept certain simplifications in Civ, such as the fact that in the vast majority of cases once you have discovered a single source of a resource it is enough to supply your whole empire regardless of expansion for the entire game. (Others may not like this particular simplification and wish to see resource supply as a variable. Other games I have played do this, and I enjoy those games on their terms.) But to me once you introduce techs and access to resources as variables and posit a relationship between them, how you use these game concepts to represent reality has to make sense. Or another way to say this is that for me at least part of the enjoyment of playing Civ is the simulation aspect.

 

[home_office]

Just to confusing things; what do people think about seeing the resource only once you have the tech, but also having to discover it (e.g. having a chance of seeing it). So until you have discovered Iron Working, you have a 0% chance of discovering it; once you have the tech, then you have the % chance of uncovering it every time you cross the tile. Or alternatively, make it a 100% chance of discovering but you MUST walk on the tile.

Here again to me this is a question of simplifying reality for the sake of the game or not. I guess I am ok with the game concept that you can see resources 100% chance anywhere on the map that you have "explored" i.e., that have at some time or other been within the line of sight of one of your units. To me this is ok as a simulation of exploration and discovery at least when combined with other elements of civ that are a more complex depiction of reality.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

It never made sense to me that you have to master the technology to exploit a resource BEFORE you know where (or what) the resource is. Why would you develop a technology to develop a resource that you never saw? So for example Mining should reveal copper, not Bronze Working. You should be able to see Horses at the start and not wait until you develop Animal Husbandry. And so on. You get the idea.

Part of the problem is the way we make progess in the game. By researching a technology (not by slow and steady experimenting with the uknown material such as iron) u get the mastership of that source all at once and from then .on u can exploit it to the max.

 

[home_office]

Part of the problem is the way we make progess in the game. By researching a technology (not by slow and steady experimenting with the uknown material such as iron) u get the mastership of that source all at once and from then .on u can exploit it to the max.

To me esp. in ancient times researching a tech corresponds to slow and steady experimenting as each turn represents a great many years. My gripe is that the relationship between the techs and the revealing of resources doesn't make sense to me.

Let me say this another way: I think the design of the game esp. at the start in ancient times deliberately postpones the revealing of militarily useful resources in a way that violates the logic of the game itself. This I believe is to make competition more balanced and not give a civ who turns out to have militarily useful resources too great of an advantage. I can see cows and pigs at the start before I research Animal Husbandry, but I can't see horses. What's the difference? Nothing logically - if I can see some animals that I can domesticate if put my mind to it why can't I see all of them? - but horses are an important military resource, while of course cows and pigs are not. I can see gold and silver at the start but not copper or iron. What's the difference? Again, nothing logically - if I can see gold and silver why can't I see other rocks/minerals before I have the tech(s) to exploit them? But again copper and iron are militarily valuable, while gold and silver are not. So I can see gold and silver before I get Mining and make a decision to research Mining sooner rather than later because I have resources which can be exploited by Mining - but I have to research Bronze Working and Iron Working BEFORE I know whether I even have the resources which these techs will allow me to benefit from.

My solution, I think, would preserve the game balance but present a more logically consistent simulation.

a) Horses would be visible at the start (along with cows and pigs). Then to exploit Horses, you would have to master a tech called Horse Taming, which follows Agriculture and precedes Horseback Riding. This would be parallel to Animal Husbandry, by which you could exploit cows and pigs. Thus you would have to make a choice or trade-off between growth (Animal Husbandry) and military (Horse Taming) as to which you would research sooner. And it would be a properly informed decision as you would know which domesticable animal resources you have.

b) Gold, silver, copper and iron would become visible after you research Mining - none visible at the start. I imagine Mining to have value for its own sake without mineral resources as I think it represents the harvesting of rock for production i.e., "hammers." The decision to research Mining sooner rather than later would be to increase production, and the discovery of mineral resources would be a side benefit. Then following Mining there would be a tech called Smelting which you would have to master before moving on to either Bronze Working or Iron Working. Again, this new tech unique to copper and iron, as Horse Taming would be unique to Horses, would present a properly informed choice or trade-off as to whether you wanted to move ahead militarily sooner or wait until you had researched other, parallel non-military techs.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Yes I like that. Anything that enriches the depth of the game is velcome by me & it make sense.

 

[rysmiel]

Just to confusing things; what do people think about seeing the resource only once you have the tech, but also having to discover it (e.g. having a chance of seeing it). So until you have discovered Iron Working, you have a 0% chance of discovering it; once you have the tech, then you have the % chance of uncovering it every time you cross the tile. Or alternatively, make it a 100% chance of discovering but you MUST walk on the tile.

I think not seeing them as soon as you have the tech would knock a major hole in strategic planning for where you expand and who you invade; it would mean that to get reasonable information for prosecuting a war with someone, you'd have to scuot their territory out every time you discovered the tech to see a new resource.