Revolution for FF

[TheJopa]

I know that FF team member Jean was working on Revolution for FfH before joining FF team. So, what are odds of getting Revolution in FF? I'm really, really looking forward to this... Especially with minor leaders in. If revolutions will be added eventually, we can use this thread to propose various ideas related to Revolutions. I have tons of ideas already

Would it be possible to make a popup every time a new faction appears from revolution? This would be especially useful when completely new civ spawns from old civ... like Ljosalfarl from Svartalfarl. Then a flavor popup would explain what was going on... Because Ljos-Svart may be obvious, but what when Sheaim appear in Amurite lands? It may be confusing for new players, but it would help to get a flavor popup saying:

After years of strife and instability in Amurite lands, a group of powerful mages finally gained enough support and power to oppose those mages in the Amurite government. They are claiming that Amurite restrictions on research in areas of Dark Arts are dragging down entire Empire, and were demanding a complete abolition of such laws. After their demands were refused, they burned the flag of Sunrise and decided to fight corrupt Senate. They even managed to gain support of the peasantry disillusioned by corruption, famine and violence. Those that opposed the Amurite magocracy called themselves The Sheaim.

 

[TheJopa]

Possible rebels, triggers and rebel goals:


In any case, revolution should not come overnight. It is certainly not fun to have entire empire destroyed suddenly. BUT you could see it coming, and act accordingly. There was already mechanic in Revolution mod, but Jean said he wanted to do it all over again, so hopefully he can make it truly brilliant. My two cents, however:

Possible revolutionaries:

Peasants:
Triggers:
Unhappiness in city
Happiness in city derived from luxuries and not from religion and buildings (luxuries aid richer and do not effect poor)
High crime rate
War Weariness
Starvation!
Repressive civics
To deter this type of rebels:
Food and city growth
Religion and temples
Health
Buildings that provide happy
Civics like republic
City Garrison
Courthouses
High culture would help, but not as important
Demands:
Before actually rebelling, rebels would make demands. For peasants, it would be: Paying gold to soothe them, removal of corrupt or cruel governor (Reduces hammer or culture yield temporarily) Reduce village taxes (-1 gold in village or town plot)
Rebellion:
After negotiations fail, peasants would rise to arms. It would cause three turns of rebellion in city, as well as damaging it's garrison. City would lose some population points. Also, new faction would spawn - CIVNAME Peasants. They would spawn warriors around rebellious city, especially in village/town and farm plots. They would be limited to very low level units, and to it unpromoted ones- hence being relatively easy prey for true army. Their strength would lie in numbers, and fact that their pillage and population loss from rebellion would encourage you to keep em in check.

Very late in game, and in civics like military state, peasants will start to spawn with combat promotions, making them dangerous.

Goals:
Goals of peasants are forming their own civ, or negotiating with ruler to establish: City States or Republic, with Pacifism or Religion culture, Agrarianism economy, Tribalism labor, and to get a certain amount of gold payed as reparation. In that case rebellion stops and you get to control rebel troops, as well as a happiness boost.



Other types:
Religious revolt
Minority revolt (Cities that you took from another civ seeking to rejoin motherland, or re-form motherland)
Fanatics (Members of state religion seeking to establish Theocracy and exile heretics)
Nobles
Royalists
Separatists
Burghers
Military
Pretenders (Minor leader seeking to overthrow existing one)

 

[WarKirby]

having peasants just be warriors seems pointless

I think they should be able to have similar tech to what your army is currently using. They'd steal weapons and armor from military ouposts.

They should have a disorganised promotion or something similar though, to reflect their untrained nature. Except for a random fewe here and there, who would be ex soldiers rebelling. they could start with a random amount of military oriented promos. Shock, combat, city attack, etc.

 

[TheJopa]

Well, I have nothing against more advanced peasants, but once all possible rebels are sorted out, it should be noticeable that peasants spawn in masses of weaker troops, while aristocrats attack in small, elite groups, while burghers field somewhat less advanced, but well promoted and relatively numerous armies full of mercenaries.

National rebellions would be strongest- fielding best of all worlds- masses of peasants and elite troops of nobles, plus special 'national' units- like few vampires for Calabim or wizards for Amurites. But such rebellions would be easiest to predict and limited to certain regions only, and you'd have opportunity to simply let em go and create yourself a vassal state.

 

[zup]

I want rebel warriors. They'd be cool to add to my werewolf squad...er division.

 

[Tarquelne]

having peasants just be warriors seems pointless

I think the point would be in your civ's disruption. A bunch of pissed-off peasant-warriors running around would be the icing on the I-want-my-city-back cake. And, IIRC, using some of the Revolution mod's code, the rebelling cities can

*spawn more units
*stay in rebellion until you kill off all the rebelling units
*spread the unrest.

Could be a real headache even during peacetime.

****

Another rebellion-type idea: Secret Society. I'm thinking they tend more toward demands (change civics, declare-war-on-so-and-so, step down, etc.) than secession, but foster unrest if thwarted. Could be closely tied to Crime rate, and/or plague well-run/successful civs even more than troubled ones. Secret Societies tend to be idiosyncratic, so it'd make a nice catch-all category, too.

 

[FireBlaze]

I always thought the one flaw in the Revolutions was that there was no fear factor. I mean that when your government goes out, gets random people off the streets and kills them, do you really want to give them a reason to kill you by rebeling?

 

[Iceciro]

Fine, FireBlaze, but that should incur pretty hefty diplomatic penalties, like doing it in the real world does And that sort of thing just seems to change the type of revolution from peasants to military coups.

 

[TheJopa]

Fine, FireBlaze, but that should incur pretty hefty diplomatic penalties, like doing it in the real world does And that sort of thing just seems to change the type of revolution from peasants to military coups.

Yeap, you don't want your knights and champions to turn against you! (Though I'd limit it only to units below level 6, and not allow world units to rebel)

 

[Jean Elcard]

Great ideas here, already, but unfortunately Revolution for Fall Further will be the very last FFire step.

Next will be "start as minor civs" and after this "barbarians turning to civs". I should have a bit more time for modding in the course of the next two weeks. As soon as the current CtD/loading problem is solved I'll spend some time on FFire. Promised. There is just not much sense in adding new stuff like this as long as there are severe problems like this on the to-solve-list. Till then expect only smaller changes like we discussed on this thread.

 

[Iceciro]

Which, by the way, is a stellar addition Jean.

I'll be happy if you get the minor leaders thing working - even cooler than building a hero!

 

[WarKirby]

I think the point would be in your civ's disruption. A bunch of pissed-off peasant-warriors running around would be the icing on the I-want-my-city-back cake. And, IIRC, using some of the Revolution mod's code, the rebelling cities can

*spawn more units
*stay in rebellion until you kill off all the rebelling units
*spread the unrest.

Could be a real headache even during peacetime.

I don't see this as much of a problem, personally. I tend to keep a reasonable army of mixed units around. A horde of peasant warriors spawning in my territory is just free experience for mages and priests, who otherwise normally have problems finding things weak enough to kill in direct combat. By the time you even just get to bronze working even, warriors are pretty insignificant on the military scale, and easily dealt with.

 

[TheJopa]

I don't see this as much of a problem, personally. I tend to keep a reasonable army of mixed units around. A horde of peasant warriors spawning in my territory is just free experience for mages and priests, who otherwise normally have problems finding things weak enough to kill in direct combat. By the time you even just get to bronze working even, warriors are pretty insignificant on the military scale, and easily dealt with.

Could it be made so that they have strong promo, heroic strength 1,2, and heroic defense 1,2? Then you'd fight bunch of 6 str warriors. IMO I'd rather see bunch of warrior models as peasants than champions.

 

[WarKirby]

But there's more than peasants at work here. We're also talking disgruntled, traitorous soldiers and such.

perhaps a mix of both

 

[Grimz101]

should depend on your alignment aswell?
Good civs rebels are more likely to gain support of the military?
Evil civs less so.

 

[Tarquelne]

But there's more than peasants at work here. We're also talking disgruntled, traitorous soldiers and such.

perhaps a mix of both

Some tougher units would fit. But I think the point of the Peasant R. is really

1) The strength in numbers
2) The razing of improvements
and
3) the pop. you've lost already, and might lose if the rebellion spreads.

Given how #1 leads to #2 tougher units in the rebellion aren't really going to do much... other than make it a more significant military threat, which just isn't the point. Probably good for flavor/interest, though.

In a way priests would be a very bad response to a peasant rebellion. (But in garrisons they might do a great deal to prevent them.) Bad in that the hammers/strength ratio isn't very good - though obviously Ring of Flames, say, could be handy.

What sort of unit would be good? Lets go talk in your cavalry thread about...

 

[Iceciro]

I'd think certain mage spheres should be very good against peasant rebellion - and I don't just mean Fireballs. I'm looking at the idea of creating Hope in a nearby city to stave off rebellion, et al.

Actually, would a city under Hope even rebel?

 

[Hawkwood]

And what about Unyielding Order, the Tower of Complacency or the Pillar of Chains?

 

[Iceciro]

Pillar of Chains... man I love that wonder. I'd think it should prevent civic rebellion just like it prevents civic unhappiness, if not in the city and cities around it, at least in the building city.

But man, I love Pillar of Chains.

 

[Randomness]

I wonder what the effects of chaos mana would be on budding revelutionaries?...