[Revolution] Religion behaviour

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On the RevolutionDCM forum, GoodGame suggested this:
Just curious, is there any room for religious schisms in this mod? I'm thinking that on top of the brand new religions causing stress, that one form of a revolt would be the creation of a religious schism based on a religion existing in the city. Kind of like the team color change in that one Warlords scenario that pitted Protestantism vs. Catholicism. Each religion could have at least one alt-from that represents a schism that has about half the negative and positive affects of a different religion in the city. Also first to a tech--say Printing Press---might trigger a schism automatically.

This is open for discussion as well as any other religion behaviour relevant to the Revolutions mod.
Cheers.
 
I think a good example of this was in a recent game of WolfRev I had where a distant city had my state religion, a foreign religion, and suddenly was picked to be the holy city for a religion I founded. All the foreign religions were upping the revolt of course, but why not have that revolt take the form of a request to allow a schism from the state religion? Thematically, it's like my state religion mixed with the foreign religions to form an alternative form of my state religion. Of course that will lead to further revolt troubles down the road...
 
So, something like when the city revolts and they make their demand, You are given a choice to accept a schism which would do something like reduce the State Religion Bonus in all cities by 1/2 permanently, but wipe away the RevIdx of the effected city, OR just refuse the demand and have the normal effects of doing so. Something like this?
 
Exactly what I was thinking!

It could be expanded a little with contextual co-factors like civics and known technologies. Pacificism or Free Religion might increase the likelihood of schisms. Same for communication-type technologies (Printing Press, and Monotheism might schism earlier religions that were founded pre-Monotheism). Particular wonders and buildings might play to or against it (e.g. temples, monasteries, cathedrals might decrease the chances of local schisms).

Question would be if infinite schisms would generate, or to simplify so only one schism per religion is allowed? Simpler is probably better.

Schisms would also be interesting in that they might inject stress into multi-civ religious blocs. AP voting regarding schisms as a
'Influence Religion' vote might be appropriate too.
 
I think schisms would be too big of a change to put in, but I do have some suggestions:

Schisms should be broad enough that it will split the civs who currently have that religion, with some believing orthodox and some believing in the schism. The penalties for having a schism-city in an orthodox state (and vice versa) should be double (or some greater factor) than just a completely different religion.

Also, perhaps only the AP religion can have schisms, or tie it in to the AP in some way.
 
I was going to start a new topic for this, but I figured this should go here. The way religion works in the game is more of a diplomatic/roleplay thing than it really is an actual faith that your people believe in. A simple +1 happiness is all your citizens get for believing in a religion.

The better AI board has a debate as to how best to deal with AI religious behavior, since it's more of a diplomatic choice than a citizen-driven one. My suggestion is to add more citizen weight behind religion. For example, citizens of Greece would be unhappy if they were in a Jewish Theocracy and Greece was good friends with the Hindu nation of Rome. That way, incentive would be to switch religions and deal with other nations based on how your citizens would react. The penalty for dealing with heathen nations might not be huge unless in a Theocracy or something, but still, integrating the citizens more into religion would provide some basis to an otherwise diplomatic choice of religion.

This could provide more background for schisms: If a foreign nation controls your religion's holy city, and your people don't like the other nations that they're dealing with, it could cause your citizens to become unhappy and form a schism, so they can "run things their own way." (Another random suggestion: perhaps schisms can only happen under a theocracy?).
 
Schisms should be broad enough that it will split the civs who currently have that religion, with some believing orthodox and some believing in the schism. The penalties for having a schism-city in an orthodox state (and vice versa) should be double (or some greater factor) than just a completely different religion.

That's an interesting idea. In the case of switching to Theocracy, after having allowed a schism in another religion, I think a doubling of effect on diplo and on the revolt bar would make the gameplay effect of schisms dramatic, and possibly worth having.

It'd be best to make the intensity of the effect of a schism to be civic-contextual. Under Pacificism or Free Religion, a schism wouldn't be grounds for huge reactionary diplo/revolt changes relative to a completely different religion. Would each city/civ evolve a religion memory by which they prefer a specific religious affilitation (e.g. if they spend say 70% of the game in Buddhism, would they prefer to flip back to Buddhism if a choice was required?).


My suggestion is to add more citizen weight behind religion. For example, citizens of Greece would be unhappy if they were in a Jewish Theocracy and Greece was good friends with the Hindu nation of Rome. That way, incentive would be to switch religions and deal with other nations based on how your citizens would react. The penalty for dealing with heathen nations might not be huge unless in a Theocracy or something, but still, integrating the citizens more into religion would provide some basis to an otherwise diplomatic choice of religion.

A populist mechanism regarding religion/schism would be interesting. The main things I think it would cause would be irredentism---basically forcing city swaps (liberations) based on religious affiliation. That would mesh well with the context of a city revolting due to a schism/foreign religion. A secondary effect could be religious/sectarian violence---mini rebellions where the out religion auto attacks the city, but doesn't form a new civ. Would this require a 'religion' bar to track %religion in the city or would that be included in the %population bar in the city view?

Not sure that I follow the example you're providing though. Would specific cities/civ's have hardcoded preferences for a specific religion? Would diplo sway religious preference?
 
Some dude said you were thinking about adding in schisms and asked me to contribute my work here. I did a lot of work on the RoM forums working out a suggested system for a schisms engine. Here's what I came up with.

Okay, religions are still founded by either technology or events and prophets. When you found a religion, you decide what values you want it to have and this determines what sect you found. Afterwords, the religion spreads. The city in which it first appeared remains its only holy city throughout the entire game and that sect of that religion remains in that city forever.

Then, lets say an event happens in another city where this religion has spread. This allows you to change the values of this religion in that city. If you change the values too radically, you found a new sect. This sect has the same holy city, though the holy city may not yet have this sect in it (though holy cities will likely acquire new sects of their religion quickly). If you do not change the values too greatly, the sect remains under the same name. However, if you are not the country which founded the sect, the version of this sect founded in your country will be named after your country (Japanese Zen Buddhism or Greek Orthodox Christianity). Also, when the first version of a sect is founded, it does take on the name of its country too. If you have already founded a version of a sect and only change its values slightly, it changes the values of that version of the sect in every city, reforming the religion.

A prophet can do the same thing. He can allow you to choose a religion which has spread to the city he is in and found a new sect of it in that city (or reform the old one).

You only enjoy the benefits of each religion's sects if you choose that as your state religion. A Christian state enjoys the benefits of all Christian sects within its boarders. Also, you cannot tell which sects of a religion are in each city from the map screen. You have to select the city and view the religion window. The map screen only lists it as having that religion, it doesn't say which sect.

Of course new values are enabled by new technologies, so not all values are open at the beginning of the game, but all values are eventually open to every religion, so even Christianity can believe in reincarnation and polytheism.

Also, each religion should probably have its own benefits which are modified by the values of its sects.

Here are the variables and traits

Growth
Production
Military
Commerce
Science
Culture

Structure - How is the religion organized from a logistical perspective? What is the primary focal point of the faith?

- Individual
- Family
- Local
- Regional
- Centralized
- National

Message What is the prime message or goal of the religion? These are all available upon founding your first religion [All of these require state in the city to have an effect]

- Improvement
- Salvation
- Knowledge
- Glory
- Tradition
- Industry

Belief System - What is the core of the religion's theology? What is worshiped? These are meant to be more focused on building related bonuses and buffing existing wonders relevant to that belief system.

- Tribal
- Ancestor Worship
- Dualism
- Polytheism
- Pantheism
- Monotheism

Influence - How does the religion interact with society? [too many graphics in my post lol, 30 seems a bit low]

- Mythology/Oral Tradition
- Evangelical
- Intolerant
- Pious
- Rational
- Charitable

Scientific Beliefs – How does your religion approach science? Does science take its cues from your religion or have your people even heard of science? Is the world controlled by nature spirits or are there more earthly forces at work?

- Mystical
- Alchemic
- Empiric
- Controlled
- Philosophical
- Utilitarian


World View – How does your religion believe the world to be structured? Is it an island of order in a sea of chaos or an illusionary temporal reality subject to a higher spiritual plane? Does the world exist on two planes, one plane, or several?

- Layered
- Elemental
- Unified
- Order/Chaos
- Spiritual/Temporal
- Time/Eternity


Afterlife – What happens to a person after they die and how can they influence what their afterlife will be, assuming there is a choice?

- Netherworld
- Underworld
- Reincarnation
- Neutralization
- Reward/Punishment
- Immortalism

And here are the sects I worked out

Egyptianism
  • The Ennead - consisted of Ra, his children Shu and Tefnut, and their descendants Geb, Isis, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, and Se headed by Atum) was worshipped. This grouping was hierarchical and used as a device by the priests to stress the importance of either the Sun God Ra or the Sky God Horus (it’s not easy to determine which due to inconsistencies in the research)
  • Ptah - was the chief deity in Memphis, later extended into the triad of Ptah-Sekhmet-Neferte. Ptah was a creation deity and a personification of the earth as a mound rising up out of the sea of Chaos
  • Ogdoad - First it was a cult having Hathor and Ra; later changing to a cult where Hathor and Thoth were the main deities over a much larger number of deities headed by Thoth.
  • The triad Amun-Mut-Khons. Chief god being Amun who seems to be a fertility god of creation and the sun
  • The triad Khnum-Satis-Anuket. – Chief god was Khnum who was the source of the Nile river and its annual flooding
  • Atenism - focused on the Egyptian sun deity Aten as a monotheistic supreme god

Hinduism
  • Folk Hinduism - as based on local traditions and cults of local deities at communal level and spanning thorough to pre-historic times or at least prior to written Vedas.
  • Vedic - as still being practiced by traditionalist Brahmins, for example shrautins.
  • Vedantic - for example Advaita (Smartism), as based on philosophical approach
  • of the Upanishads.
  • Yogic Hinduism - especially based on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.
  • "Dharmic" or "daily morality" - based on the notion of Karma, and societal norms such as Hindu marriage customs etc.
  • Bhakti or devotionalism - especially as in Vaishnavism- distinguished from other schools by its worship of Vishnu or its associated avatars, principally as Rama and Krishna, as the original and supreme God.


Hellenism
  • Cult of Zeus – God of kings
  • Cult of Apollo – God of virtue and prophesy; heavily associated with the sun
  • Cult of Hestia – Goddess of the hearth
  • Cult of Ares – God of war
  • Cult of Demeter – Goddess of fertility and the harvest
  • Cult of the Godhead – Many philosophers did not agree with the traditional belief in multiple gods of relatively equal power. They believed that some singular, greater power gave rise to all the lesser gods and that this greater power, often entitled “the Godhead” should be worshiped as superior to the Olympians.

Judaism
  • Orthodox Judaism - holds that both the Written and Oral Torah were divinely revealed to Moses, and that the laws within it are binding and unchanging.
  • Masorti Judaism – Reaction to the enlightenment; Characterized by a commitment to following traditional Jewish laws and customs, including observance of Shabbat and kashrut, a deliberately non-fundamentalist teaching of Jewish principles of faith, a positive attitude toward modern culture, and an acceptance of both traditional rabbinic modes of study along with modern scholarship and critical text study when considering Jewish religious texts
  • Reform Judaism - Its defining characteristic with respect to the other movements is its rejection of the binding nature of Jewish ceremonial law as such and belief instead that individual Jews should exercise an informed autonomy about what to observe.
  • Reconstructionist Judaism- emphasizes reinterpreting Judaism for modern times. Like Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism does not hold that Jewish law, as such, requires observance, but unlike Reform, Reconstructionist thought emphasizes the role of the community in deciding what observances to follow.
  • Jewish Renewal - focuses on spirituality and social justice, but does not address issues of Jewish law. Men and women participate equally in prayer.
  • Zealotry - a Jewish political movement in the 1st century which sought to incite the people of Iudaea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the country by force of arms; opposed the Romans due to Rome's intolerance of their culture and on the grounds that Israel belonged only to a Jewish king descended from King David

Zoroastrianism
  • Asura Pantheon – Refers to the polytheistic worship of the Asura Gods which went on in Iran until Zoroaster’s teachings (that good Asura obey Ahura Mazda and bad ones don’t and thus should not be worshiped, for instance) came to prominence.; Fertile
  • The Zoroastrian Church – Refers to the traditional beliefs of Zoroastrians as first taught to them by their prophet and adopted later by the Persian Empire
  • Zurvanism - had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). Here, Ahura Mazda was not the transcendental God, but one of two equal-but-opposite divinities under the supremacy of Zurvan, 'Time'
  • Ilm-e-Kshnoom - a school of Parsi-Zoroastrian philosophy based on a mystic and esoteric, rather than literal, interpretation of religious texts. According to the adherents of the sect, they are followers of the Zoroastrian faith as preserved by a clan of 2000 individuals called the Saheb-e-Dilan ('Masters of the Heart') who are said to live in complete isolation in the mountainous recesses of the Caucasus (alternatively, in the Alborz range, around Mount Damavand); Scientific
  • Manichaeism – Actually considered a different religion, though it can be thought of as a merging of Zoroastrianism and Gnosticism. Principle prophet is Mani and central belief is that there are two gods (one good one evil) who vie for power within a person’s soul. This is a severe departure from the Zoroastrian beliefs about the nature of God (the uncreated code of the universe).
  • Mazdakism - The two distinguishing factors of Mazdak's teaching were the reduction of the importance of religious formalities — the true religious person being the one who understood and related correctly to the principles of the universe — and a criticism of the strong position of Zoroastrian clergy, who, he believed, had oppressed the Persian population and caused much poverty. Mazdak emphasized good conduct, which involved a moral and ascetic life, no killing and not eating flesh (which contained substances solely from Darkness), being kind and friendly and living in peace with other people.

Buddhism
(I’m not going to lie to you, the terminology used in discussing these sects is not familiar to me, so I’m just doing the best I can to define them)
  • Theravada - the oldest surviving Buddhist school. Theravada philosophy is a continuous analytical process of life, not a mere set of ethics and rituals. Conservative. Emphasizes the Four Noble Truths as revealed by the Buddha. Doctrine says that insight must come from the aspirant's experience, critical investigation, and reasoning instead of by blind faith. However, scripture is used as a guide.
  • Mahayana – Emphasizes the Mahayana Sutras, sometimes as the manifestation of Buddha himself. Very widespread with several offshoots. Characterized by eclecticism and a general belief in a common search for salvation, sometimes thought to be attainable through faith alone.
  • Vajrayana – Similar to Mahayana in philosophy, but differs mainly in practices.
  • Jodo or “Pure Land” – Offshoot of Mahayana. Concentrates on the Amitabha Buddha almost as a personal savior. Amitabha, in his 48 vows, his 18th and 19th vows promise entry into this Pure Land to any who calls upon his name as few as 10 times in their life and to anyone who calls out his name upon the moment of their death. This will make reaching Nirvana far easier in their next life. Very popular among the working class. Practices include mantras of his name and meditation on Amitabha himself and/or his Pure Land.
  • Zen – Concentrates on a moment to moment understanding of the world and of the mind. Menial tasks are seen as central. It is a way of life. Group activity is used to limit the influence of one’s ego. Various forms of meditation are used to empty one’s mind, unite the mind with the body/world, and escape ordinary patterns of thought. As teachings are said to have been passed down from the Buddha, lineages are often important in assessing a teacher’s ability. They tell who taught who.
  • Shingon – Offshoot of Mahayana and a form of Vajrayana. Concentrates on remembering one’s own Buddha-nature through meditation using mudras and ritual instruments for enlightenment of the body, mantras for enlightenment of speech, and mandalas and meditation for enlightenment of the mind. It is a highly esoteric form of Buddhism. Enlightenment is achievable in a single lifetime.

Confucianism
(I think I’m creating a lot of divisions here which don’t exist, but, seriously, Confucians seem to pretty much agree with each other)
  • Neo-Confucianism - a philosophy that attempted to merge certain basic elements of Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist thought. Attempts to find principles through observational science.
  • Philosophical Confucianism – This is the practice of Confucianism as a philosophy which can exist alongside other religions.
  • Religious Confucianism – This is the practice of Confucianism in its traditional form which includes ancestor worship, a belief in an abstract celestial deity, various rituals and rites, and the deification of ancient kings and even Confucius himself along with a skeptical view towards otherworldly beings. Excludes the practice of any other religion and tends to deny its own identity as a religion.
  • New-Confucianism - a new movement of Confucianism that began in the twentieth century. Often associated with the essay, "A Manifesto on Chinese Culture to the World." The Manifesto presents a vision of Chinese culture as having a fundamental unity throughout history, of which Confucianism is the highest expression. a "New Confucian" is anyone who (1) believes that Confucianism can and should accommodate modern science and democracy, (2) argues that Confucianism has a distinctive contribution to make to Western thought, and (3) interprets Confucianism along the general lines of Neo-Confucianism.
  • “State” Confucianism – Focuses on the accommodating needs of the local people through Confucian philosophy. Accommodates whatever culture it comes in contact with and takes the name of the state it is practiced in. Tries to bring about Confucian reforms in state lay and spread Confucianism throughout that particular state.
  • Temple Confucianism – Identified by the practice of building temples to honor Confucius as well as numerous noteworthy scholars throughout history. Statues of the honored ones are housed in the temples and offerings are made to their spirits.

Taoism
  • Philosophical Taoism or Daojia - A philosophical school based on the texts Dao De Jing (道德經) and Zhuangzi (莊子)
  • Zhengyi or Orthodoxy – a Chinese Taoist movement that emerged during the Tang Dynasty as a transformation of the earlier Tianshi Tao movement. Like Tianshi Dao, the leader of Zhengyi Daoism was known as the Celestial Master. Unlike prior incarnations of the Celestial Masters, like the school based at Louguan, the Zhengyi Taoists did not venerate Laozi as a god. Instead, he was viewed as the ancestor of the school's teaching.
  • Folk Taoism - The Chinese folk religion as it was adapted to serve Taoist beliefs
  • Sinaism or Pangu – taken from the Greco-Roman term Sinai meaning “the Chinese”, this word refers to Chinese Mythology as a whole rather than the portion of it which was adopted by the Taoist religion.
  • Quanzhen or Complete Reality - specializes in the process of "alchemy within the body" or Neidan (internal alchemy), as opposed to Waidan (external alchemy which experiments with the ingestion of herbs and minerals, etc). The Waidan tradition has been largely replaced by Neidan, as Waidan was a dangerous and often lethal pursuit. Quanzhen focuses on internal cultivation of the person which is consistent with the pervading Taoist belief of Wu Wei, which is essentially "action through inaction." Like most Taoists, Quanzhen priests were particularly concerned with longevity through alchemy, harmonizing oneself with the Tao, studying the Five Elements, and ideas on balance consistent with Yin-Yang theory.
  • Tianshi or Way of the Celestial Masters - a Chinese Taoist movement that was founded by Zhang Daoling in 142 CE. At its height, the movement controlled a theocratic state in Sichuan. Illness, in this sect, was caused by sin. Repentance through mediation or prostration and acknowledgement of one’s sins was necessary to relieve sickness. Semen is considered the embodiment of qi. If someone ejaculated too often, their life would be shortened. While Daojia advocates not ejaculating during sex in order to 'nourish the brain,' the Celestial Masters frowned upon this, and advocated non-ejaculation simply as a way to avoid losing qi. In addition, the Celestial Masters thought that the Daojia method of stealing a woman's qi to replenish the man's own qi was completely wrong, and should not be practiced. Sect was highly organized and structured along theocratic lines.

Naghualism
(I'm quoting this part off the top of my head as I'm having trouble finding my book on the subject. I'll make corrections after I find the book)
  • Cult of Quetzalcoatl - Snake god of rebirth; Merciful and wise god; patron of humanity; his temples were often used as schools or universities for the nobility; prohibited human sacrifice, preferring the sacrifice of flowers and butterflies
  • Cult of Huitzilopotchli - War god of the Sun; national patron of the Aztecs; required daily offerings of human hearts to carry on his war with the demons who lived in the stars; also considered to be the source of destiny and names
  • Cult of Tlaloc - War god of Rain and Thunder; very wrathful; required the yearly sacrifice of several children who were tortured to death (their tears were considered to be an offering to him); Favorite god of the Teotihuacano Empire (their enemies believed him to be a god of death)
  • Cult of Xipe Totec - "the Flayed Lord"; Undead God of Corn; required the yearly gladiatorial sacrifice of captured warriors who were then skinned and worn for a month to resemble husks of corn
  • Cult of the Tezcatlipoca -God of kings, darkness, evil, sorcery, and death; mortal enemy of Quetzalcoatl; kings prayed to him for power and sorcerers worshiped him almost exclusively; King of the gods; none of the Aztecs liked him but rather, worshiped him out of fear and necessity (one of his epithets is Titlacauan meaning "We are his Slaves" and another is Necoc Yaotl meaning "Enemy of Both Sides") ; his temple is one of the largest in Tenochtitlan, though few people ever entered it, and Quetzalcoatl's is one of the smallest, but nearly all visited regularly
  • Cult of the Leader - The Maya believed that their dead leaders became goods in heaven and that their living nobility could commune with these gods through blood sacrifice. As the sole conduit to heaven, the shaman leader was the only one who could pray to the gods for rain, victory, or fertility and thus he wielded remarkable power and loyalty. There is record of a noble once being kidnapped and his people would not allow any member of his family to replace him until it was confirmed that he had died 11 years later.

Christianity
  • Orthodoxy – Exists to preserve the original message of the Christian faith and bring others closer to God by facilitating the innumerable Mysteries. Does not acknowledge the Pope as anything other than the Bishop of Rome and vest almost all religious authority with the Archdioceses of the Ecumenical Council. Free will is extraordinarily heavily stressed. Even the shallowest theological discussion does not fail to mention it. More mystical than other forms of Christianity. Relatively little evangelism.
  • Catholicism – Exists to bring together all the Christian faithful, preserve the message of Christ and his apostles, and administer the Seven Sacraments. Acknowledges the Pope as head of the Christian Church, with is authority descending directly from Peter who was chosen by Christ. Good works and charity are heavily encouraged due to the principle of Purgatory. Has a history of manipulating governments and inciting crusades. Theology very similar to Orthodoxy, but tends to be explained in more concrete, less mystical terms.
  • National Supremacy or Church of “State” – Acknowledges the head of one’s stated as head of the church, chosen by God to rule over all the people of his lands. Otherwise similar to the Catholic church. Discourages charity and good works except as regulated by the state. Relatively little evangelism due to its nationalist nature.
  • Lutheranism – Does not acknowledge any but God as a supreme authority. Emphasizes the importance of a personal relationship with God, salvation through faith, and the authority of the Bible. Good works and charity are looked highly upon, but not necessary for salvation.
  • Calvinism – Emphasizes humanity as being at the mercy of God, who would be just in condemning all people for their sins, but who has chosen to be merciful to some. Does not acknowledge any but God as supreme. Believes in a kind of predestination. Can be extraordinarily strict. Society is led by the Elect who are identified by their moral character and worldly success. Emphasizes the authority of the literal word of the Bible even more than Lutheranism. Once attempted to replace the Catholic Church through warfare. Is the only form of Christianity which does not acknowledge free will. Does encourage charity and good works, but these tend to be, in large part regulated by the state under Calvinism.
  • Primitivism– Sees itself as reinventing the whole church for a new age. Places extraordinary importance on the word of the Bible. Consists of several relatively independent movements which tend to disagree with each other heavily. Have a strong moral and evangelist ethics. Very little regard for church tradition, protestant or Orthodox Catholic. See older, more organized churches as corrupt. They tend to see the world as near its end.
Islam
  • Sunni - believes that Muhammad did not specifically appoint a successor to lead the Muslim community before his death, and after an initial period of confusion, a group of his most prominent companions gathered and elected Muhammad's close friend and a father-in-law, as the first Caliph of Islam. Sunni Muslims regard the first four Caliphs as the al-Khulafā’ur-Rāshidūn or "Rashidun" ('The Rightly Guided Caliphs'). Sunnis also believe that the position of Caliph may be democratically chosen, but after the first four Rightly Guided Caliphs the position turned into a hereditary dynastic rule.
  • Shi’a - believe that his family, the Ahl al-Bayt (the People of the House), including his descendants known as Imams, have special spiritual and political rule over the community and believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, was the first of these Imams and was the rightful successor to Muhammad, and thus reject the legitimacy of the first three Rashidun caliphs.
  • Kharijite - while originally supporting the Caliphate of Ali, they eventually rejected his legitimacy after he negotiated with Mu'awiya during the 7th Century Islamic civil war (First Fitna). Their complaint was that the Imam must be spiritually pure, and that Ali's compromise with Mu'awiya was a compromise of his spiritual purity, and therefore of his legitimacy as Imam or Caliph. While there are few remaining Kharijite or Kharijite-related groups, the term is sometimes used to denote Muslims who refuse to compromise with those with whom they disagree.
  • Mutazilism -
  • Sufism – is a mystical-ascetic form of Islam practiced by many Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. By focusing on the more spiritual aspects of religion, Sufis strive to obtain direct experience of God by making use of "intuitive and emotional faculties" that one must be trained to use. Sufis usually considered Sufism to be complementary to orthodox Islam, however it has widely been criticized by many Muslims on the whole for being an unjustified Bid‘ah or religious innovation. One starts with sharia (Islamic law), the exoteric or mundane practice of Islam and then is initiated into the mystical (esoteric path of a Tariqah (Sufi Order)
  • Ahmadiyya - followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who claimed to be the Mujaddid of the 14th Islamic century, the promised Messiah ("Second Coming of Christ") and Mahdi, as well as the likeness of all the prophets. The followers are divided into two groups, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam, the former believing that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a non-law bearing prophet and the latter believing that he was only a religious reformer though a prophet in an allegorical sense. Followers of Ghulam Ahmad consider themselves Muslim and believe their form of Islam to be a re-establishment of the original teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
 
I DO NOT WANT BASE REVOLUTIONS TO BE LIKE ROM WITH HUNDREDS OF ADDED THINGS!

If schisms are added, make them a simple concept, something like what GG suggested. The above is not tenable for this mod, it is something more fitting to massive expansion mods like RoM.
 
I have to say that schisms are an interesting idea, but a bit too complicated. If relgion is to be upgraded within the revolutions mod then I think a better priority would be to add a mechanic showing the amount of a cities population under a certain faith. I think this could be acheived fairly easily with a mechanic similar to the culture bar in cities.
 
I agree. I never liked how once a religion spread to a city, it didn't distinguish between a cult following and a situation where everyone is pious to the faith.
 
Wow SH, that's quite a brainstorm. I'd have to go with the consensus that simpler would be better, as the idea is to complement the Revolutions mechanics, not to make a full blown religions mod.
 
I wanna confer with you on this, as I think it's a fantastic idea that I'd strongly consider adding to NwT/Diamond - though, as noted, too in-depth for base Rev. Send me a PM when you get the chance, as I'm on the way out atm.
 
Well I am sure you seen my Rapture stuff.

Anyway it has some tags in buildings schema that allow other religions to build the same building. So anyway what I am saying if you want not too much added.....

You could say for example make a second Christian religion, and all of the buildings are shared by the second religion. But it is another religion at the same time.

So a Catholic religion and a Protestant religion could both build a Christian temple, monastery, cathedral, and a shrine. The idea was still give happiness to any religion using it.

Civics should be used as well. We began to have civics that effect the spread of certain religions. So that religions go away as well when not your state religion. Like Paganism would not help spread Christianity.

I was only trying to get the mechanics to work for schisms first in Rapture, then I was looking at something to separate religions that usually send out missionaries and ones that are usually more related to one group.

For example Egyptians did not try to convert others to their religion. They believed there were gods of Egypt only.

Anyway that is not what you guys are looking for. So if you want to try small only. The SDK might be of interest in Rapture, but would need some tweaking.

I am expecting to hear blasphemy now about how your mod stinks, but like said you do not have to use all of the art. It was never finished just started.
 
Not sure if it helps, but when I first began my Civics Mod I was fascinated by the idea of religious sects and schisms. One of the things I thought of to help represent sects was to bring in a Dogma Civic-the central tenet of your particular religion. It's been a while since I looked at them, but I think some of them were "Ascetic", "Gnostic", "Orthodox", "Scholastic", "Pantheist", "Animist" and "Ecumenicist"-can't remember, but that's not really the issue. Now, although I never got round to fleshing the idea out, my ultimate plan was to tie a religion-at its founding-to whatever Dogma your civ is currently in.
So, as an example, if you found Judaism whilst running a scholastic dogma, then Judaism will have a Scholastic character as long as it's the Dogma of the civ which controls the Holy City.
Now my idea was that if a religion spreads to a city whose civ is running a contrary dogma, then unhappiness would result in those cities. The only options open to the city's owner would be (a) purge the city of the religion using Inquisitors (i.e. eliminate the heresy), but at a cost of population and a short-term loss of happiness (as in slavery); (b) change your dogma (which could cause unhappiness in cities without the competing dogma, not to mention the usual disruptions of civic changes) or (c) urge the controlling civ to change their dogma. Failure to cure the differences would-in time-result in a religious schism. Differences in dogma could also impact on the relations between 2 civs-even when they have the same religion. So 2 civs running Judaism might get the "same religion" bonus for relations, but would also get an ever increasing "sectarian" penalty to relations-on top of the usual civic penalties.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your opinions, and I could flesh them out a bit more for your if you'd like.
 
OK, I had another look, and my idea consisted of (a) Dogma/Tenet and (b) Inter-Faith Relations. Under Dogma you had-in order-"Animist", "Ascetic", "Numinal", "Scholarly", "Organized", "Fundamentalist", "Reformist", "Orthodox" and "Ecumenism". Under inter-faith relations you had "Insular", "Evangelical", "Pantheist", "Sacrificial", "Theocracy", "Free Religion". I think most of my ideas hinge on both aspects of my religious civics.

Also, can anyone with a better understanding of religion give me some better civic categories than what I have above. Some of them are OK, but some could probably be done differently.

Aussie_Lurker.
 
OK, so I've been looking at things again & this is how I see religion working. If anyone disagrees with my interpretations, I'd be happy to hear alternatives.

1. Dogma which can be defined as:

Animist (aka Numen): The belief that the Divine is in all things-whether that be a single God, or a whole Pantheon of Spirits, Demi-Gods and/or Gods, thus making all things worthy of worship. Obviously this is the central tenet of Shinto and many Tribal Faiths. An alternative view is that God(s) and Spirits inhabit the places that are built for them, as was often seen in Classical Roman & Greek beliefs.

Ascetic (aka Gnostic): Is the idea of the "Inner Divinity". Purification of the soul by abstaining from worldly pleasures. A variant of this is Gnosticism-or Dualism-that holds that the material world was created by a "Lesser God", and so must be rejected as evil in order to ensure the transcendence of the Pure Spirit.

Scholastic: Holds that all knowledge is a "Gift from God", and so must be pursued rigorously.

Organized (aka Hierarchic): Holds that religion can only be dispensed from a centralized authority-usually through very inaccessible rituals open to the priestly caste. Can also refer to religion strongly linked to the secular authorities, and often very....monumental.

Orthodox: Holds to a very strict interpretation of any religious/oral works relating to the Faith, tends to be even more ritualistic and monumental than Organized Religions.

Fundamentalism: Is an even stronger form of Orthodoxy. A belief in very strict adherence to very basic principles within the Faith, even to the extent of rejecting modernity. Unlike Orthodox and Organized religion, Fundamentalism places greater emphasis on adherence to strict religious belief than it does to ritual or monuments.

Reformist: The exact opposite to the previous three. Reformism holds the belief that the faith must be relatively simple and accessible to all-comers. Services should be performed by relatively ordinary people in the native language of the observers. It is usually Iconoclastic, yet also more open to change and modernity than the previous 3 dogmas.

Anyway, hope that all makes sense. Obviously different dogmas could make for interesting faith relations between nations with otherwise identical religions. For instance, having a Reformist Buddhist Japan vs an Orthodox Buddhist China. Obviously to make that work you'd need some polar opposite dogmas which create especially large foreign relations penalties-like Scholastic vs Fundamentalist, Ascetic vs Organized, Orthodox vs Reformist. Throw in penalties/bonuses for the Faith-Relations civics and the possibility for new religions to spawn from Dogma-related schisms, and the possibilities are quite enormous.

Aussie.
 
Well, it doesn't have to be too complicated. Dogma is simply a new Civic category. The key is that each Dogma civic carries its own set of bonuses and penalties for State/Non-State religions within the nation. Where things get interesting is when a nation adopts a Dogma which is at odds with the dogma of the Holy City of a religion within your empire. By the same token, the founder of a religion might also take a hit if he/she changes the dogma of their own faith.

At its simplest, I'd see it working like this-say if an Orthodox Religion spreads to a nation with a Reformist Dogma, then it will generate -2 happiness in that city (as they are diametrically opposed), this would rise to -3 (or even -4) happiness if the receiving nation converts to the religion whilst maintaining its Reformist Dogma. Obviously this unhappiness can be countered by building of that religions temples/cathedrals. However, if the underlying dogmatic differences remain unresolved then 1 of 3 things could eventuate: 1) the cities with that religion break away and join the religion's founder (if close enough), 2) the cities with that religion break away and form an independent nation friendly towards the religion's founder (and automatically of the correct Dogma) or 3) an opportunity to found a *new* religion (sect) becomes available (not sure how hard that would be).

Now the question for me is this-should the religion bring its Dogma bonus to the receiving city? i.e. lets say an Orthodox Dogma grants +25% culture to cities. In the example above, should the spread of the Orthodox religion to a Reformist city bring with it the +25% culture bonus from Orthodox Dogma? I think it would be cool, but only if it could be easily done in the SDK.

Hope that makes a bit more sense.

Aussie.
 
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