[Revolution] Religion behaviour

[Edgecrusher]

If my opinion is anything, I think the simplist way to impliment this is to have a "schism" initiate a new "unused" religion, in a similar vein to how new Civilizations' arrise from existing Civilizations in the standard Revolutions Mod.

Currently the game has the ability to have 7 religions that are founded at 7 different technologies.

I propose that new religions (for this example say we add 3, Zoroastarianism, Hellenism, Shintoism) DO NOT have a new tech for them (along the same vein as the JARM Mod). Doing this will limit the max number of religions in the game that can be founded by normal means to 7. If the Choose Religion option is used, then the 7 in question can be any of the 10 that are now in the game... Make Sense?

Now Enter Schisms.... instead of adding a branch of an existing religion i.e. Christianity to Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox, etc... I think the best way to incorporate it is to have the "Schism" spawn one of the unused unchosed religions. Thus introducing a new religion.


For example:
Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Confucianism, and Taoism are founded via the 7 technologies.

At some point in the 1500's a the English City of Dover is having religious tourmoil in it for whatever reason (too may religions, a colony, etc...). This turmoil causes them to break away from their faith, and found a new religion, which is then randomly chosed from and resulted to be Shinto.

Now Dover becomes the Holy City for Shinto, maybe some missionaries to help spread the message. All existing religions in the city are eliminated from it... and so on...


Its basically the same concept that introduces the new civilizations, except it could be religion driven instead of culture driven.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, that was kind of what I was getting at with my idea. Only my point was that the underlying source of this potential schism is differences between your Dogma & the Dogma of the civ which controls that religion's Holy City (&/or Founded the Religion).

So, as a case in point, if a the founder of Islam is currently Scholarly & that religion spreads to one or more cities in a civ currently running an Orthodox Dogma, then there is a chance of a religious schism erupting in one or more cities the religion exists in-potentially leading to the creation of a new Religion-Orthodox Islam (I'm guessing Shi'ite, but just Orthodox Islam would work too). If the nation in question has adopted Islam as it's State Religion-whilst still maintaining it's Orthodox views-then the chance of a schism should be markedly increased. It should then be up to the ruler of that civ whether it wants to adopt the new religion as the State Religion, or refuse to recognize it-in which case you could spark a possible revolution where the cities break away to form a new civ under this new religion.

So, to summarize:

1. All the 7 official religions gain extra "flavor" from the Central Dogma of the Religion's founder.
2. If said religion spreads to a civ with an opposing dogma, then unhappiness will result in that city. This can be partly overcome by building the appropriate religious improvements.
3. If the adoptive civ fails to change its dogma then a possible "Religious Schism" could result-with 1 of 2 possible outcomes. Either the city breaks away to become more like it's "religious parent" or an entirely new religion-carrying the dogma of it's "adoptive parent" appears.
4. If the latter event occurs, then either the adoptive civ can make this new religion the State Religion, or it can refuse to accept it, in which case a revolution can occur, with the cities breaking away to form a new civ under this new religion.
5. Obviously the nature of the schism will determine relations between any new civ & it's "adoptive" or "natural" parents.

Hope that makes sense.
3.

 

[johny smith]

If you are adding all of these religions ......

What is the point of not having actual denominations? I mean I made a lot and they are real denominations. But Confucianism and Taoism are considered part of the same group, and I replaced Taoism with Zoroastrianism in importance as one of the main 7.

I think it does not make sense to have Shinto form from a schism in Christianity. Throwing in any religion is silly to me since I already did a lot of denominations anyway. But if no one is interested in the religions I made then I should not be typing this here.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I agree with you Johnny. If we can add real-life denominations, then why not. I think most of my dogmas correlate with real-life denominations of at least the monotheistic religions. Orthodox probably correlates best to Eastern Orthodox Christian, Shi'ite Muslim and Hasidic Judaism. Organized is obviously Catholicism, Judaism and Islam respectively. Fundamentalist correlates to Puritan Christianity, Zionism and Wahabbi Islam respectively. Reformist obviously relates to Protestantism for Christianity-not sure about the other two.
Ascetic correlates to Catharist Christianity & Essene Judaism. Hope that all makes sense.

Aussie.

 

[ZachScape]

If any religions are included (I think this should go for any mod pack), they should not include civ-specific names. Hellenism should be Olympian. Egyption should be something like Nile or anything excluding Egypt.

 

[johny smith]

Well adding a lot of religions was never the intent of Revolution. I would suggest just concentrating on the 7 in game first. If you want to call it a schism they should split up.

I was thinking a few new icons for the whatever religion a schism creates, and probably better for example if Christian you can use the Christian buildings for your new religion that is from Christianity. Like Christian Catholic temples can be used for Christian Protestant Temples instead of having to add a big set of art. Just think that is idea of Revolution. Small size but big changes.

I have sets for the denominations as just recolored textures for the units. Does not mean they need be used. Just making it clear they are available. They are meant to look similar enough so you don't think they are very different from the original.

Older religions that are tied to specific culture I think should not really be for schisms. Anything that involves only people of a particular ethnic group as the only members of their religion really are civ-specific though in reality. That is my opinion anyway. I think they are meant to be civ-specific.

Egyptians or Greeks did not have some grand organized religion to spread to the world. They did not send missionaries out to spread a religion that only pertains to themselves. They did have some cults come in from other groups though. Well my 2 cents anyway.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Yeah, although a religion to represent the various pre-Judeo-Christian beliefs might be nice, I think you could just as easily have a generic temple & Temple Complex which you can build once you get Polytheism & Priesthood. Obviously it would be linked to the Civ building it, so you'd have a Greek Temple, a Roman Temple, an Egyptian Temple etc etc. It would also be replaced by the basic religious building of any one of the major religions in the game. That way there would be nothing stopping you from having an "Old World" religion right into the Modern Era, without making any major alterations to the game.
Other thoughts I had involved Civic-linked religious buildings, like a Shrine for Asceticism or a Sacred Grove for Animism. I also thought of having an Inter-Faith relation civic called Henotheism, which would allow you to build a Pantheon. What do you reckon Johnny? I think that could work.

Aussie.

 

[johny smith]

Well I think they are really not the same either to replace a religion for another that does not think it is the same. Egyptians that converted to Christianity did not believe they were using the same religion. Catholics and Protestants did think it was the same.

I would not go far to begin with I mean with the other shrines. I would keep it even simpler. Just a new religion that changes some religions in the cities around it to another denomination to begin with.

For example Martin Luther makes a schism. It replaces the Catholic religion with the Protestant religion in the city done and makes a holy city. It also changes religions in the cities around from Catholic to Protestantism based on probability and stability. Some may have both afterwards.

Just think basic simple is the best way first. Check out my WoC Lite Rapture stuff if you want to see what I had in mind anyway. Was wanting to add another commerce called spiritual that is spent when using missionaries and inquisitors. Sort of like the Super Spies idea but for religion units. Was thinking spirituality points in a state religion would be an opposing force in instability issues in making schisms happen.

Anyway the first step is not complete I mean. I have a schism mission in Rapture that needs to be tweaked. Just something to work from maybe if people are interested.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Oh sorry, I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at. The Shrine, Pantheon, early temples & stuff would disappear as soon as you first adopted a "proper" State religion. It would just allow a proper representation of the pre-Judeo Christian era religions which are currently under-represented (only the Egyptian Obelisk goes anywhere near representing that era). So you'd have all your nice Greco-Roman temples, or Egyptian Temples right up until you convert to Hinduism or Christianity etc etc.

I do think I understand what you're getting at too. Instead of having a bunch of extra Temples, Shrines, Monasteries & Cathedrals for the new religions, you'd just have the old ones convert-is that what you're saying? Still, it would be kind of nice having stuff like Canterbury Cathedral or Westminster Abbey as the Shrine for Protestantism, or some such .

Aussie.

 

[phungus420]

Please remember that RevDCM is used as a mod base for many mods. Implementing a complex and overbuilt system as proposed in the few previous posts will ruin RevDCM for a lot of mod makers. Those ideas would be more suited for their own unique mod, like johny smith's rapture project, and not for the RevDCM core.

 

[johny smith]

Oh sorry, I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at. The Shrine, Pantheon, early temples & stuff would disappear as soon as you first adopted a "proper" State religion. It would just allow a proper representation of the pre-Judeo Christian era religions which are currently under-represented (only the Egyptian Obelisk goes anywhere near representing that era). So you'd have all your nice Greco-Roman temples, or Egyptian Temples right up until you convert to Hinduism or Christianity etc etc.

I do think I understand what you're getting at too. Instead of having a bunch of extra Temples, Shrines, Monasteries & Cathedrals for the new religions, you'd just have the old ones convert-is that what you're saying? Still, it would be kind of nice having stuff like Canterbury Cathedral or Westminster Abbey as the Shrine for Protestantism, or some such .

Aussie.

Well maybe on the temples. But I mean not really so important first I mean. I was thinking schisms only. In Rapture I have decay and spread religions tags based on civics and eras for earlier religions. The older religions stick around if they are state religion otherwise they go through decay.

Yes thinking that for temples, cathedrals and monasteries. As for shrines I have thirty of them with movies in Rapture for the denominations. I tried to stick to actual important ones as much as I could. So a lot already done anyway. If wanting to be used.

Please remember that RevDCM is used as a mod base for many mods. Implementing a complex and overbuilt system as proposed in the few previous posts will ruin RevDCM for a lot of mod makers. Those ideas would be more suited for their own unique mod, like johny smith's rapture project, and not for the RevDCM core.

What system would be simple then? I have not heard a real system suggested. The WoC is in RevDCM so no problems on religions icons. Adding more tags to buildinginfos for a temple to be used by many religions is small. Making a new schism mission that founds a religion is not a major change. Just add another action to the prophet.

Missionaries and Inquisitors with commerce is another thing. Like I stated looking into in Rapture now.

 

[frekk]

No offense to JS - I know he's done alot of amazing work on the schismatic denominations and it would be a fine mod in its own right - but I wouldn't want to see tons of new religions added to RevDCM either. Two or three might be OK, but any more than that ought to be a separate mod. RevDCM is supposed to be fairly standardized - fixed aspects of the game such as civilizations and leaders aren't changed too much, so far it only changes the mechanics, not the content too much. I think it ought to stay that way.

But what might be nice for the idea of schisms is that some religions flow from other religions, kind of like how civilizations have derivative civs when they found a colony. From Judaism you get Christianity, from Hinduism is Buddhism, and so on (the default used when there is no derivative could maybe be Islam). These religions would be founded by some sort of schism mechanic, say you get very high unhappiness or bad health or nationality differences in a particular city (more or less like the mechanics behind Revolution) then there would be a chance of a schism developing in that city, and a new religion being founded there. It would be a derivative of the current state religion - so if your state religion was Judaism, it would be Christianity, and so on.

 

[johny smith]

I do not recommend all of my religions in a core RevDCM. I mean just how ever many people think they want. That should be able to be decided all by xml was my idea.

If you began making Judaism turn to Christianity and etc I think you are going to get yourself a bigger headache. Than just dropping in another religion icon.

But Hinduism came after Buddhism. There was a common religion they share that they sprung from. Although Hinduism looks to the Vedas for their religion source the Vedas contain different gods in similar roles. The first was an older Vedic religion for the two. I will not preach more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion

I don't think the idea is to add more religion art(temple, cathedral, monastery, shrine, missionary...). I do think the idea is to add more religions.

Let me make it clearer what I mean.

Civ4BuildingInfos.xml

Spoiler :

			<PrereqReligion>RELIGION_CHRISTIANITY</PrereqReligion>
			<PrereqOrReligions>
				<PrereqOrReligion>RELIGION_PROTESTANT</PrereqOrReligion>
				<PrereqOrReligion>RELIGION_ORTHODOX</PrereqOrReligion>
				<PrereqOrReligion>RELIGION_COPTIC</PrereqOrReligion>
			</PrereqOrReligions>

This is example is what I am thinking. This would mean every new denomination uses the same building.

Schism extra XML

CIV4MissionInfos.xml

Spoiler :

		<MissionInfo>
			<Type>MISSION_SCHISM</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_MISSION_RELIGIOUS_SCHISM</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_MISSION_RELIGIOUS_SCHISM_HELP</Help>
			<Waypoint>NONE</Waypoint>
			<EntityEventType>ENTITY_EVENT_GREAT_EVENT</EntityEventType>
			<iTime>16</iTime>
			<bTarget>0</bTarget>
			<bBuild>0</bBuild>
			<bSound>1</bSound>
			<HotKey/>
			<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
			<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
			<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
			<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
			<HotKeyAlt/>
			<bAltDownAlt>0</bAltDownAlt>
			<bShiftDownAlt>0</bShiftDownAlt>
			<bCtrlDownAlt>0</bCtrlDownAlt>
			<iHotKeyPriorityAlt>0</iHotKeyPriorityAlt>
			<bVisible>1</bVisible>
			<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Actions/ReligiousSchism.dds</Button>
		</MissionInfo>

Civ4UnitInfos.xml

Spoiler :

			<bReligiousSchism>1</bReligiousSchism>

I do not have anything for units as <PrereqOrReligion> yet. That was not my intent with Rapture. I do not think Rapture should be in RevDCM.

I am saying that the smallest way I see it is is to only add icons and no new buildings or units. I do not think people are understanding me. I never said add Rapture. I just have some code that may be useful is all. I will let you guys argue about the count. I do not care. Only thing I would want to see is a schism.

 

[phungus420]

7 Religions is enough. There is no need for more. In fact adding more is just one of those MAOR CONTENT OMFGWTFBBQ!11!!!!1 things to do. I am firmly against it, more relegions will not help gameplay, actually for a standard player it will only harm it. If you want more religions mod them in, don't force useless stuff in RevDCM because some of you like RoM and want MAOR STUFF, LOL!11!!!! More is not better.

 

[johny smith]

7 Religions is enough. There is no need for more. In fact adding more is just one of those MAOR CONTENT OMFGWTFBBQ!11!!!!1 things to do. I am firmly against it, more relegions will not help gameplay, actually for a standard player it will only harm it. If you want more religions mod them in, don't force useless stuff in RevDCM because some of you like RoM and want MAOR STUFF, LOL!11!!!! More is not better.

So people just swap their religion? That is not a schism. So you just want to have one of the 7 appear? What are the followers of a previous religion going to do then? Why don't we have no religions founded from techs then? I am lost what you want in religion behavior. You make no sense. SO YOU WANT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO CHANGE THE REVDCM. You want to add a feature that waters down the importance of religion by giving it to others by not having to select a tech. WHERE DID YOU DECIDE WHAT IS REVDCM? I only made a suggestion. AND I DO NOT LIKE TYPING IN ALL CAPS. AND GO MAKE SOME WORTHLESS STUFF FOR YOUR MOD. I AM NOT TALKING TO YOUR ALL CAPS TYPING DUM......

 

[phungus420]

The game is perfectly balanced with 7 religions. More just complicates diplomatic and happiness issues needlessly.

 

[frekk]

I don't think the idea is to add more religion art(temple, cathedral, monastery, shrine, missionary...). I do think the idea is to add more religions.

It's not the more art that I don't want (by all means, more art!! Ethnic artstyles for the religious buildings would be just fine). It's just the way religion is set up in the game right now, I feel like more than a handful (7 ... maybe room for a couple more, tops) would be too many. It would make diplomacy alot more difficult and wars would be far more common - and not just for the human player, the AIs would be at war with each other pretty much constantly because it will be very difficult for any particular religion to be a state religion to more than one or two civs, if many more than a single-digit number of religions are in play.

Or you could balance it out so that only the first couple of religions to get founded really go global, but that's a cure that's worse than the disease. With the small number of religions there are now, most games tend to go that you get competition between 3-4 very different world religions with extensive influence, and there's room for a religion founded in the middle of the game (with some effort) to achieve that status. This is just about right.

On the other hand, I could see this being done in a very modular way so that people could pick and choose exactly how many and which religions would be seen in the game, just by changing a few zeroes to 1's. If this defaulted to the usual 7 and/or it was a WoC-type module, I can't see anyone having a problem with it.

As far as Hinduism/Buddhism ... maybe. But drawing a line between Vedic and Vedic Hinduism at any specific point in time is totally arbitrary. It's the same tradition, it just evolved. Buddhism references a specific individual and a specific point in history, and has a clear dividing line. But all that aside, it's a game and some historical license is allowed, particularly in civ ... where Judaism might be founded by the Aztecs, who promptly have "Jeanne Arc" build the Temple of Solomon in Tlateloco!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Here's the way I see it. I agree that having dozens of religious sects on top of the main religions could get pretty unwieldy-so how about about having 8 "Major religions" & slots for 4 "Minor Religions" or Sects? Personally, I think that engineering a schism could be a very good diplomatic tool, & one with a basis in real history. Didn't get Buddhism & don't like taking orders from the Orthodox Head Lama in Berlin? Then switch your own dogma to Reformist & try and engineer a "split in the church", with yourself at the head of the new, Reform Buddhist Sect. Also, if I'm not mistaken, this mod would almost certainly include an Inquisition Mod, which means that the number of religions in any given game would be in constant flux-as specific leaders sought to root out any kind of Heresy within the kingdom. Again this has a real-life basis, as evidenced by the Inquisition against the Cathari heresy & the related Albigensian Crusade (which, in my in-game thinking-would be some kind of Ascetic/Gnostic sect of Christianity).
Hope that makes sense.

Aussie.

 

[johny smith]

Well whatever with the religions. Does not matter how many that can all be modules. That is what I had in mind if it was not obvious already. There is 10mb limit or an upload for RevDCM core at this point is the plan I thought. Then can have whatever modules to add a count. If you are making a schism then it should be a split of a religion. If not a split of religion call it something else.

Adding more modfications to how religions play would be more work I think then just adding a religon in game from a schism and removing one from the city before.

The divide in Vedic versus modern Hinduism in Rapture is when the present Hindu gods began being worshipped. The two biggest denominations are to Vishnu and Shiva. I having them began around 500 BC. The older Vedic has Agni, Indra, and Mithra in Rapture. Total difference in gods worshipped. Each denomination has a lot of differences of belief inside of Hinduism as well. Hindus do not make human sacrifices anymore or burn horses to Agni for example like in the Vedic. Either way the name Hinduism did not come into use to way after Buddhism. Asoka promoted Buddhism after the decline Buddhism in India I would say is another possiblity point to say a change.

Either way it would be the same case for Judaism and Christainity as well. When Jesus died the the messiah cults did not immediately consider theirselves a separate religion. That came a good bit after. Islam came from Judaism? It obviously has Christian influences as well. Anyway I am just saying I think you are opening a jar of worms with it.

What are you looking for in a schism is the real question? I am lost of what you guys imagine will happen. Do you mean a civic change and that is it? You can not just drop in another symbol for the religion icons unless it is a religion. The other idea would be to add some text to the scoreboard or something. I do not see anyway else to display it.

If you just want a civic change then really this is not a schism religion wise in game reading it as another religion. You would not change an icon in the city with it. Just would not be getting along with another leader of the same religion. That is not a bad idea. Just would have to add a lot more to where somewhere it is decided who is the authority for a religion. Who is the rebel and etc. All I am saying I do not see how any of the options can be done to interact with others in the same religion. Does not mean it can not be done just a lot more work than just having another religion.

Please explain in detail what you think should happen with each civ that follow one religion does the religion civic change or how a religion would swap from Judaism to Christainity. How would you represent the change in game? Because I do not see a way of easily doing what I think you guys are asking.

Civics would be displayed as a leader's choice only. So really would not do a lot on individual cities. Would be more of a diplomacy option. Your people never decided that is really just a your state religion policy.

If you want your followers to have a schism like what a schism did in real life. Where people in your cities converted and have problems within your empire than you need a religion to appear.

 

[BobTheTerrible]

I don't think any changes to religions are necessary. 7 is fine, and schisms wouldn't add too much to the game.