RevolutionDCM for BTS

[phungus420]

Well I really don't like how the AI purges the Holy Cities. It seems like 1/2 the Holy cities go missing if I play with this enabled.

Anyway you could get the AI to avoid (within reason) Religious techs if it already has a Holy City, or alot of state religion coverage? Spiritual civs like Isabella still beline religions, and end up getting their empires split due to religious rebellion, or purge the new religion entirely, which seems like unintended behavior considering the non state religion penalties in Revolutions.

 

[Ekmek]

Yeah, I'd really like to get that. I was looking at Jeckel's religion and corporation city screen and couldn't manage to to merge it with BUG. I'd love to have an interface where I only see icons of religions/corporations that I actually have in my cities.

If you could do the same with Jeckel's corporations, I'd be forever in your debt. I'm trying to add a bunch of corps to my game and I managed to merge the Crossroad's 10 corps screen with BUG. If I could also have a screen that only showed the ones I actually have established, I could add a ton of them to my game. It's highly unlikely I'll end up with 10 corps in one city afterall, but having all the icons there right from the start puts a limit on how many I can add. I have 10 now and I have ideas for 4 more.

here you go.

@glider, you can add these as standard and they wont affect the mod AFAIK

 

[Borg124]

Hi, I want to try this mod out but I also want to use it with the latest version of Varietas Delectat v4.01 please?!

I have also read that you "Ekmek" have get it to work with it, can you give me please the files or how it works together
thank you all

 

[Ekmek]

with VD 3.6 i merged a few files. but with v4.0 I didn't have to do that it seems you can just copy the VD stuff into the modules folder and it loads. Atleast thats what happened with my personal mod. I didn't merge anything this time.

 

[Borg124]

ok, thank you for the information !

 

[glider1]

Well I really don't like how the AI purges the Holy Cities. It seems like 1/2 the Holy cities go missing if I play with this enabled. Anyway you could get the AI to avoid (within reason) Religious techs if it already has a Holy City, or alot of state religion coverage? Spiritual civs like Isabella still beline religions, and end up getting their empires split due to religious rebellion, or purge the new religion entirely, which seems like unintended behavior considering the non state religion penalties in Revolutions.

Yes, current Inquisitions kills holy cities and that has got to change. As for the "unintended behaviour", that's crossing over into Revolutions country. I'm thinking of taking out aspects of other Inquisitions mods but have not begun deciding which aspects are desirable. So far we have:
1) Inquisitor can purge so long as there is a state religion
2) Holy cities must not be destroyed unless they have little influence.
3) Inquisition is only a national activity, not an international activity.

Thoughts welcome.

@Ekmek and Borg
Did you get VD4 to work in RevolutionDCM simply by dragging into the modules folder or were there problems?

Cheers.

 

[cripp7]

I don't agree with #2, I don't believe in the holy city should be purged in the event of capturing it.

 

[Ninja2]

Non-sensical post deleted! Never post when you are too tired to think, read or type...

 

[Willem]

here you go.

@glider, you can add these as standard and they wont affect the mod AFAIK

Well thanks but you're a bit late. johny smith has already made me up a screen that does the same thing to both religions and corporations and works with BUG. I appreciate it though.

 

[Willem]

2) Holy cities must not be destroyed unless they have little influence.

I don't think Holy Cities should be purged at all. I'm rather reluctant to try this mod now that I now that can happen. Everything but Holy Cities should be removed IMO.

 

[glider1]

@Willem
Inquisitions is in it's early phases of development with respect to all that is RevolutionDCM. Don't be turned off by this. Many other aspects of RevolutionDCM are very mature. Please, comments are welcome.

According to how I understand it, you and Ninja are actually in agreement then?

Ok amended proposals for Inquisitions with respect to RevolutionDCM are:
1) Inquisitor can purge so long as there is a state religion and Theology has been researched.
2) Holy cities cannot be purged (this actually makes the coding easier)
3) Inquisition is only a national activity, not an international activity.

Cheers.

 

[phungus420]

Ok amended proposals for Inquisitions with respect to RevolutionDCM are:
1) Inquisitor can purge so long as there is a state religion and Theology has been researched.
2) Holy cities cannot be purged (this actually makes the coding easier)
3) Inquisition is only a national activity, not an international activity.

Yeah, that sounds good to me. I wouldn't be against a Grand Inquisitor Unit that can only be built by the AP and used in other CIVs of the same religion and in theocracy, but that's beyond what you're trying to do with inquisitions probably. If I really want to apply it that way, I should go into the code myself. As for how Orion has implemented international inquisitions, I'm strongly against it.

Also though, if you can you should really look into the AI tech paths, and make it so getting a new religion if you already have a Holy City or good State religion coverage is avoided by the AI and not beelined. The non state religion penalties kill religious civs that beeline religious techs. I've never seen Isabella not have her empire torn apart by religious rebellion because of it.

 

[glider1]

@Phungus
Thanks for the feedback! The interesting dilemma is Duuk's point about holy cities, that they are very unstable Revolutions wise on small maps. The problem is that it does not make sense to me that the most holy city of a foreign religion in your theocracy state, can be eliminated by a single inquisition. If it is simple, I will continue to explore your suggestion that the exception to this might be if the religion of the holy city has little influence anywhere else.

As for your suggestion about using inquisitors abroad this is good but....This is a tricky issue though regarding possible loop holes and exploits and how it would be used by the AI. I think I will not go there for a little while. I have noted your point that you disagree with Orion's implementation. It would be very interesting to see how you go with your own experiments. Effectively it is a research project to see whether inquisitors abroad can work.

As for building the Grand Inquisitor only at the AP, this is new to me and will have to think about it. This will mean that only one civ can build inquisitors?

As for adjusting the AI tech paths to avoid a second religion, the issues are:
1) Is it always true that an AI with two or more holy cities will split?
2) Can an AI successfully manage two or more holy cities?
These issues are really Revolutions issues. I don't want to cross over just yet without involving Jdog.

At this stage, the latest Inquisition proposals are then:
1) Inquisitor can purge so long as there is a state religion and Theology has been researched.
2) The founding religion of a holy city cannot be purged.
3) Purges can be carried out on any city in the empire and can remove non state religions except in case (2).
4) Inquisition is only a national activity, not an international activity.
5) The hits on diplomacy, happiness and rev index stay as is.
6) The probabilities of successful purges remain as is.
7) The material cost of an Inquisitor remains as is.
8) The loss of non-state religious buildings caused by a purge remains as is.

Suggestions welcome
Cheers.

 

[Willem]

3) Inquisition is only a national activity, not an international activity.

What about during a war? Surely an Inquistor could be tagging along with an army ridding the world of the infidels. It was a pretty common practise during the Crusades as I understand it.

 

[Willem]

Also though, if you can you should really look into the AI tech paths, and make it so getting a new religion if you already have a Holy City or good State religion coverage is avoided by the AI and not beelined. The non state religion penalties kill religious civs that beeline religious techs. I've never seen Isabella not have her empire torn apart by religious rebellion because of it.

Why not just have it so that a civ can only found a single religion? I started using the Basic Limited Religions mod which makes it impossible for any civ to found more than one religion. It makes alot more sense from an Inquisitor stand point, and probably adds alot more inter civ dynamics. Quite often you get one civ founding two or three religions yet only one of them is actively promoted, leaving the others to wilt on the vine. With only one religion per civ, you'll probably end up with more religious blocks instead of having just a couple dominating the world.

 

[Willem]

2) Can an AI successfully manage two or more holy cities?

I don't believe it can even in the default game. It focuses on just a single religion and doesn't develop the other one very well. This gives the human player something of an exploit because he/she knows that it's a good idea to spread both equally in order to maximize the shrine income.

 

[Duuk]

Please don't include the limited religions version. It causes weirdness.

 

[Willem]

Please don't include the limited religions version. It causes weirdness.

How so? I haven't played with it enough to know how well it works. I personally like the idea one religion per civ.

 

[glider1]

@Willem and Duuk
I see your point. You are looking to find a way to make the AI play better without having to fundamentally alter the AI. When there is no obvious way to improve the AI, I often do the same. One founding religion per civ would achieve this it seems. The big drawback is that it is a big limiting factor on the diversity of how a game evolves. Probably the best idea would be to include it as an "option". Duuk mentions that it could be bugged as well. Honestly, the AI's use of multiple religions should be investigated in the Better Than BTS AI project.

Your point regarding Inquisitors being deployable during war, is certainly interesting. It is more feasible in terms of game balance as well, in that inquisitors now face the real prospect of being killed. The AI would still need to be taught how to deploy international inquisitors tactically, but it would not have to be taught any complex inquisition strategy, as would be the case if inquisitors were deployable abroad during peace time. This idea merits some more thought....

Cheers.

 

[Willem]

@Willem and Duuk
The big drawback is that it is a big limiting factor on the diversity of how a game evolves.

I don't think it would frankly, in fact I believe the opposite would be the case. In my experience, a civ that founds two religions doesn't know how to work with both. They focus on the first one they get and the other one ends up languishing. By limiting it to one, not only are you giving another civ a chance to actually develop that religion and having it spread but you're also eliminating something of an exploit. The human player knows that there's a real advantage to spreading both religions equally, for the shrine income, but the AI doesn't really do it very well. Also by having more civs found religions, instead of having them monopolized by just a few of them, you end up with more religious factions in the game since the civs that were previously denied one are more likely to develop and adopt their own, then try to spread it to their neighbours.

I'm not suggesting that a city can't have more than one religion in place BTW, only that a civ can only one found a single one.