RFC Classical World

[smelly_cat]

Thanks for the info on mercenaries.

I have an ideia that may seem stupid. Attacking units could only engage in combat with defending units in cities with walls, if those walls were damaged by seige units.

btw, Antigonids are a completely different experience! Very difficult and full of action

 

[srpt]

those are good points about late game food and production. I was trying to reflect real changes in agricultural technology that took place at the time, moving from the ard, basically a forked stick, to the plough with its knife, blade and board as well as many other changes. (book plug: History of World Agriculture by Mazoyer and Roudart) balance may have to supersede though. I will make some changes soon.

I think walls are already quite powerful at least early on, which I like.

still thinking about titles. lots of ideas but not sure how powerful they should be.

 

[smelly_cat]

After my 5th attempt, I finally managed to win the historical victory as antigonids.
Two things I noticed. In some of the games, Carthage is taken by barbarians. (Carthage, not Carthago Nova).
In the game I won, ptolomy first city was founded in Cyprus. Althought it is quite cool, Ptolomies became quite crippled because 3 galatians stayed in the island until I conquered it (lots of turns of gameplay). Instead, when the first city they founded was Perousion, they were far more active against seleucids. In one of the games, they managed to grab 3 cities from Seleucos.

 

[srpt]

I'm glad the Antigonids were challenging. I'll make sure the Ptolemaic AI prefers Pelusion. in most games they do found that city.

semi-major civics rebalancing. many nerfs, a couple of changes of concept. details below. tried to make things simpler. caste system was OP I think. tyranny is now worth it. there was a tech that gave a trade route and allowed a civic that added another trade route. there are now only 2 food bonuses. 1 from agrarianism and 1 from the plough.

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gave Carthage walls

 

[CrossRFC]

those are good points about late game food and production. I was trying to reflect real changes in agricultural technology that took place at the time, moving from the ard, basically a forked stick, to the plough with its knife, blade and board as well as many other changes. (book plug: History of World Agriculture by Mazoyer and Roudart) balance may have to supersede though. I will make some changes soon.

I think walls are already quite powerful at least early on, which I like.

still thinking about titles. lots of ideas but not sure how powerful they should be.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know many agricultural innovations took place in the game's timeframe. I'm not quite sure how to convey that. Maybe some kind of crop failure mechanic, or some other measure of "reliability".

Technical innovations were also sometimes offset by administrative failures (starting at Diocletian*, who essentially destroyed the Roman "free market" system and set the stage for serfdom). And then the fall of Rome...etc. Gross overgeneralization and oversimplification, I know, so no one go yelling at me for being ignorant.

*Diocletian's economic reforms/new tax burdens are only a small part of all Rome's economic failings.

Edit: Good to see military economy got nerfed! 50% was too OP. Maybe also -1 trade routes per city and slowed cottage growth? This would reflect the tax toll a military economy takes on the nation's markets, aside from upkeep alone.

 

[Sitalkas]

disappointed from ologarchy nerf... I used it a lot in my games

also, could military economy give a - x% war ? a military society should not be afraid of going to war

 

[CrossRFC]

Good point, Sitalkas. We can use the negative percent war weariness to offset the further penalties I suggested.

The oligarchy nerf was the result of a slavery exploit, where slaves, getting the bonus too, become ridiculously overpowered.

Edit: Oh! I completely forgot to tell you, srpt, the copper near Pelousion, due to being in the desert, is inaccessible to workers and slaves!

 

[Sitalkas]

really? this was happening? Damn, I didnt know it , I could have used them in joining cities instead of rushing buildings

also, I have mentioned it some months ago, perhaps an early feudal civic in late game will help to represent that transition you want srpt. eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)

 

[CrossRFC]

I thought about themes once...I don't think the solution would be to implement it as a civic.

It ties in nicely with a concept that I think would go nicely with RFCCW: many more, and more civ-specific, decisions, which could happen at certain dates, at random, or perhaps, through some system, at will (think of national decisions in Europa Universalis).

The theme decision would sacrifice some economic positives, for, say free military units, or some at-will levies. Additional downsides could be stability issues or revolt issues (powerful local military commanders).

Right now, though, the human Byzantine player isn't under pressure enough to desire sacrificing anything for increase in military, because the Byzantine economy is amazing.

Also, Ptolemids still don't start with Dynastic Cult

Edit: Overall, we've got some serious thinking to do for how to make the late game feel "authentic", different, and interesting. Up to 100 to 150 AD is pretty solid at the moment, though, which I think was the goal for the new map at this time.

 

[Sitalkas]

Unfortunately I havent played Europa Universalis and can't imagine how this could be implemented here :/

 

[Sitalkas]

ok, I just had a completely crazy idea

srpt, is it possible - I mean, can you program it - to actually have 2 sets of civics?

I mean, the first set will be the usual 5 tabs and it will be for "urban" civs

then another one set, consisted from another 5 tabs of civics but this time they will be focused on "barbarian" or "nomad" civs

the urban civics will focus on trade and science while the nomad/barbarian on how to harness the wilderness and enhance your cavalry efficiency

you will be able to transist from one phase to the other but with some serious stability penalty

yeap, I know, I am crazy!!!

 

[CrossRFC]

@Sitalkas: expanded civics (both in terms of categories and number per category) have been done in the Rise of Mankind mod. Then you'd simply limit the civics based on what civ is being played. Doesn't seem too hard, the question really is what exactly the civics would be, how this would affect gameplay, is it worth the effort, does it break balance?

 

[Sitalkas]

that's correct, balance will change and some months of testing it are required..

but you know, I just wanted to share that crazy idea

 

[CrossRFC]

Completely unrelated:
Ptolemid early military strategy:
Avoid the Seleucids until Antigonids are done. Send galicians and a spearman to Ephesos, then to Tarsos, and, if you still have military left, rush Antiocheia. But first wait for the Seleucids to capture Tyros, so their phalangites and elephants will be unable to be of use of them. While rushing Antiocheia, if possible, acquire mercenary units (heavy spearmen, preferably) and take Jerusalem, which should be lightly defended. Make peace with Seleucids by trading Astronomy. You can take the only remaining Seleucid city on the Mediterranean as the civ is collapsing post-Parthia.

Spoiler :

 

[CrossRFC]

(double post)

@srpt: Antigonids are not coming back as Macedon if they're wiped out. I destroyed the Antigonids about 10 turns into the game, and as of turn 52, no sign of them.

I made this little thing which I stuck into checkHistoricalRespawns:

#Macedon: make text key for this!
if iGameTurn <= getTurnForYear(10) and not pAntigonids.isAlive():
	if self.checkCoreUnoccupied(iAntigonids):
		self.birthInvasion(iAntigonids, tCapitals[iAntigonids], utils.getCorePlotList(iAntigonids))
		CyInterface().addMessage(iHuman, True, iDuration, CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_CIV_BIRTH_MACEDON", ()), "", 0, "", ColorTypes(iRed), -1, -1, True, True)
		DynamicCivs.checkName(iAntigonids)
		return

 

[srpt]

rebalanced all unit costs. everything a bit more expensive overall, costs ramp more steeply with later units and lots of leftover things fixed.

had an idea to make corps and economy buildings more interesting and fun:

scrap the regular Market building (Forum and Agora become Fairgrounds)

replaced by the 4 corp markets (grain, fish, cloth, spices)

these each give 1 trade route, 1 merchant slot, +15% gold

they require the corp, a Fairground in the city plus 2 more fairgrounds, so each type of market could only be built in 1/3 of your cities

artisans quarters and tradesmens quarters would work the same with monuments and forges being the prereq buildings

merchant units, both land caravans and merchant ships, could act like the pilgrim unit for the human player, bringing the corps to your cities. it would probably be best for them to spread on their own to the AI. apprentice units could do the same for the artisans/tradesmen.

once the buildings were built the corp would become permanent in the city unless it changed hands.

you could then make banks require at least 1 each of all 4 markets in your civ

@Crossphazer: good idea for Macedon. I changed the Antigonids capital plot to Pella so it will land in the right place. there is also code to give them conquerors at Pella if they get a GG.

@ Sitalkas: I think the idea of playable nomads deserves more than just a set of exclusive civics, although that would be part of it. I think to do it right would also require temporary "cities" or nomad camps, which would produce only units and be mobile. for this mod... well I really want to finish it so I don't want to go off on a tangent like that.

Egypt has Dynastic Cult again

I think the Byzantines should be balanced to be in a zero tech situation at the start, like the Byzantines in SoI. I had to give the Romans courthouses in most cities in the 220AD scenario to keep them from going broke. I will try to remove just enough of them and make them disappear from the cities the Byz flip.

sourceforge is moving the svn repository and as usual their instructions are awful. every time I've managed to do something with sourceforge, add a user, whatever, its been so difficult and obscure that by the time I got it to work I was so frustrated I wanted to scream. I guess you guys will have to make changes too.

edit: I honestly can't believe how terrible sourceforge is to learn. absolutely nothing works. I basically can't click one thing and understand what comes up. the instructions don't even seem to refer to what you see on the screen. they say they have moved my repository but of course I can't connect to it. you can't delete anything so now I have 5 projects from trying to get it all to work.

 

[CrossRFC]

That doesn't sound very fun.
Revision control always has to be difficult...

 

[srpt]

I think I got it now

 

[CrossRFC]

Good news!

Also, I found a handy list of heresies we can use to torment the human byzantine player, and maybe even the AI, if it needs a nerf. (As of yet the byzantine AI is untested). here

We can get some dates going, add some events to religions.py and the event handler, etc...

Might actually make the piety goal difficult.

 

[srpt]

there is a new regular download up. link in the first post