RFC Europe: Extending/Fixing City Name Maps

[jessiecat]

What format do you want these in? I can (relatively) easily provide world-builder saved games with the current city names as signs in the strategy layer. These would be one for each civ.

I did this at the start of this thread, but it was a lot of work juggling lots of little edits. I don't know how micbic works with these maps (possibly in a spreadsheet), but it might be easier for him (as grand-high city name master) if you work in the same formats.

If you could post up to date WB saves with the current city names, that'd be great. I'd like to check a couple of areas myself.
Also, in the absence of st. lucifer I'd like to make a few slight changes to terrain and resource placement in some areas. As 3Miro suggested I'll liase with micbic and Lexad on these. Initially I've posted some limited changes below to the British Isles for them to look at.

Briefly,
- added 3 tiles to extend N of Scotland, wooded moorland hills
- moved hills in NW Ireland to west coast, replaced with grassland
- added pig resource to S. Ireland
- added sheep resource to Norfolk, E. England
- added clams to E. Ireland near Dublin
- added fish to N. Cornwall, N. Wales and E. of London
- added several wooded areas to Scotland, Ireland and SW England.

 

[micbic]

@sedna: How do you transform WB files to city name maps? The method that I have figured out is somehow time-eating, specifically
1) Work the names on the WB as landmarks (as I did when I made my first maps, Austria and Hungary)
2) Save the file and open it with Notepad.
3) Open the RFCEmaps file, and replace with the information on the Notepadded WB. A sign, eg Bjorgvin x:22 y:18 (or something kinda like that) means that the city on the (x,y)=(22,18) coordinates has to be Bjorgvin, and I count 22 "columns" eastward, and 18 lines southward, to place there Bjorgvin

Ah, and before I forget (@all): Do you think the Norse map has to include Viking Era cities, or 1200-1400 (pre-renaissance) cities would fit better?

 

[sedna17]

@sedna: How do you transform WB files to city name maps? The method that I have figured out is somehow time-eating, specifically
1) Work the names on the WB as landmarks (as I did when I made my first maps, Austria and Hungary)
2) Save the file and open it with Notepad.
3) Open the RFCEmaps file, and replace with the information on the Notepadded WB. A sign, eg Bjorgvin x:22 y:18 (or something kinda like that) means that the city on the (x,y)=(22,18) coordinates has to be Bjorgvin, and I count 22 "columns" eastward, and 18 lines southward, to place there Bjorgvin

Ah, and before I forget (@all): Do you think the Norse map has to include Viking Era cities, or 1200-1400 (pre-renaissance) cities would fit better?

I have two python scripts, one of which reads RFCEMaps.py and generates a WBS for each civ by adding signs to a (template) WBS file. The other script takes as input a WBS file for a given civ and spits out the properly formatted new array, which you then have to paste into RFCEMaps.py (I was too lazy to get around to fully automating that part). The scripts are a little klunky, but I could document and clean them up and send them to you. I guess you'd have to install a version of python if you wanted to run these under Windows? Not really sure how that all works with an archaic OS

For synching up different maps, this method sucks. There, you really want to see the arrays, probably in a spreadsheet or something. Umarth made a python script back in the day to convert WBS to a spreadsheet (.csv) file, and I modified it and use it for settler/war maps. The problem is, names are so long it's really awkward to view these huge arrays in a spreadsheet (works fine for the single digits in a settler/war map).

I think the Norse map should be Viking cities and the Swedish map should be pre-industrial names. Plain RFC renames some cities as a function of time, and we could (in theory) always implement a similar function.

 

[micbic]

I have two python scripts, one of which reads RFCEMaps.py and generates a WBS for each civ by adding signs to a (template) WBS file. The other script takes as input a WBS file for a given civ and spits out the properly formatted new array, which you then have to paste into RFCEMaps.py (I was too lazy to get around to fully automating that part). The scripts are a little klunky, but I could document and clean them up and send them to you. I guess you'd have to install a version of python if you wanted to run these under Windows? Not really sure how that all works with an archaic OS

For synching up different maps, this method sucks. There, you really want to see the arrays, probably in a spreadsheet or something. Umarth made a python script back in the day to convert WBS to a spreadsheet (.csv) file, and I modified it and use it for settler/war maps. The problem is, names are so long it's really awkward to view these huge arrays in a spreadsheet (works fine for the single digits in a settler/war map).

I think the Norse map should be Viking cities and the Swedish map should be pre-industrial names. Plain RFC renames some cities as a function of time, and we could (in theory) always implement a similar function.

Dang, have to rework from scratch

 

[3Miro]

That's why I had the idea for starting with modern city names. Have one map that spans all of our Europe and puts modern city names for all the tiles. Then what we would need is to simply change those appropriate names for each civ/era. That way we can fix the location of the city of Varna (for example) and put the different names it had during the ages ( in more than 15 centuries and under three Empires Varna has never changed name).

It is a lot of work either way, though.

 

[sedna17]

Dang, have to rework from scratch

If this is referring to Scandanavian city names, my comment was just a suggestion. If you've already done a lot of work with more modern cities, that's probably fine too.

 

[Lexad]

sedna17
The question: if I provide you with csv file with names, would it be ok for you to convert using scribt into WBS?

 

[micbic]

If this is referring to Scandanavian city names, my comment was just a suggestion. If you've already done a lot of work with more modern cities, that's probably fine too.

No no no. I may be destruction, but at least I am a perfectionist destruction

 

[JediClemente]

Been meaning to say this for some time... am I the only one that thinks Spain's (or Iberian for that matter) part of the map is wrong?

Rivers aren't correctly placed (esp. Guadalquivir, the southest one), but my biggest concern is Cordoba, it just should be 2 tiles W, also making place for Granada, very important city during the Middle Ages. In fact, as it is now, you'll never see it built, though we have 1 wonder from there (The Alhambra)...

Believe me, I know, it's where I live.

It should be interesting to have also place for Sevilla, and change Cordoban and Spanish settler maps to ensure those get built.

In Andalusia there are too many productive resources and too few food ones (should be the other way around). Those should be in northern Spain.

I don't know if it's too late to talk about the map now, but if sedna, 3Miro or anyone let me I can change a bit the map myself and post it here to comment it.

 

[sedna17]

sedna17
The question: if I provide you with csv file with names, would it be ok for you to convert using scribt into WBS?

I'm not sure I understand. I could do this. However, if the csv file has your corrected names though, I would just put it into the file that controls this for the mod directly. I could then output a WBS from that file as well.

 

[jessiecat]

Been meaning to say this for some time... am I the only one that thinks Spain's (or Iberian for that matter) part of the map is wrong?

Rivers aren't correctly placed (esp. Guadalquivir, the southest one), but my biggest concern is Cordoba, it just should be 2 tiles W, also making place for Granada, very important city during the Middle Ages. In fact, as it is now, you'll never see it built, though we have 1 wonder from there (The Alhambra)...

Believe me, I know, it's where I live.

It should be interesting to have also place for Sevilla, and change Cordoban and Spanish settler maps to ensure those get built.

In Andalusia there are too many productive resources and too few food ones (should be the other way around). Those should be in northern Spain.


I don't know if it's too late to talk about the map now, but if sedna, 3Miro or anyone let me I can change a bit the map myself and post it here to comment it.

I'm the one responsible for most of the stuff on the Iberia map. As it is I've already changed the Guadalquivir (it originally flowed into the Med.). But I agree that it should be possible to build Granada even though it was never as important as Cordoba in Muslim times was it? I'm happy if you redo Iberia and post it as a WB save
like the one below showing where I think the cities should be. Your suggestions as to resource placement would also be welcome. Put them on the WB map as well. While I have been to Spain many times your local knowledge will be much appreciated.
BTW I always build Sevilla instead of Cadiz in my games. I think we could fix the city placement by moving the Cordoba start one tile west, making room to build Granada, as I have suggested before. How would that be for you?

 

[Verily]

Why would you ever build Seville instead of Cadiz? Cadiz is an infinitely better site.

Moving Cordoba one tile west takes the Barley and Wool out of its BFC and is generally a very much inferior city site for the first UHV. Really, I don't think Granada is all that important that there absolutely needs to be room for it to be built. Even with Cordoba moved one west, building Granada would be a waste (doesn't get any useful tiles not taken by Valencia/Alicante/Cordoba/Cuenca).

Also, Valencia is currently one tile north of where you have it on that map.

(Historically, Granada was briefly a center of administration under the Visigoths and then the Byzantines, a minor city in early Muslim Spain, completely destroyed in Muslim civil wars in the early 11th century, rebuilt in the 12th century and became significant only in the 13th century as the capital of the last Muslim territories in Spain. It was known as Ilbira for most of its time under Muslim rule.)

One more note I just thought of; I'm pretty sure Badajoz flips to the Portuguese, which is wrong. (Generally the "home area" and "flip zone" maps need major work.)

 

[JediClemente]

Well, the problem is Sevilla is far more important historically-wise than Cadiz. It was one of the most important cities in Spain after the discovery of America, just until the second half of the XVIII century, when comerce with the colonies was made more open. Before then every single spanish galleon from America entered there.

Even in islamic times, Cadiz was moreless a poor village, and Sevilla the region's capital.

As to the importance of Granada, it was the capital of the last islamic kingdom in Spain (XIII-XV centuries), and the last part of the Reconquista.

The city was taken the same year Columbus sailed (he even signed his contract here while the siege was in progress) and jews were expelled from the kingdom. Those three events are seen as some of the most relevant in Spain's history.

The cities' symbol (a pomegranate, as "granada" means that in spanish) was later incorporated into the emblem of the Habsburg ruling family, and now it's even present in the country's one.

I'd like to see the three cities present in the game, before any other southern Spain one, if that means to relocate the resources, should it be done?

Having Sevilla instead of Cadiz you lose a port in the atlantic and the "atlantic access" resource. The river (Guadalquivir) was navigable by those times. I can change one plains tile for a coast one... but I don't like how it looks.

I also agree that Badajoz shouldn't flip to the portuguese (for obvious reasons). And it could make sense to have Santiago instead of A Coruña as the indy city to be incorporated after spawn, even having a third one in the north (Santander?).

 

[jessiecat]

Quite right about Valencia. My error. As Cordoba, I always build Seville if only for historical reasons. I'll try Cadiz next time. Actually I agree with you about Granada as not very important. But I've enjoyed the place myself and the guy lives there. Give him a break.

 

[jessiecat]

Well, the problem is Sevilla is far more important historically-wise than Cadiz. It was one of the most important cities in Spain after the discovery of America, just until the second half of the XVIII century, when comerce with the colonies was made more open. Before then every single spanish galleon from America entered there.

Even in islamic times, Cadiz was moreless a poor village, and Sevilla the region's capital.

As to the importance of Granada, it was the capital of the last islamic kingdom in Spain (XIII-XV centuries), and the last part of the Reconquista.

The city was taken the same year Columbus sailed (he even signed his contract here while the siege was in progress) and jews were expelled from the kingdom. Those three events are seen as some of the most relevant in Spain's history.

The cities' symbol (a pomegranate, as "granada" means that in spanish) was later incorporated into the emblem of the Habsburg ruling family, and now it's even present in the country's one.

I'd like to see the three cities present in the game, before any other southern Spain one, if that means to relocate the resources, should it be done?

Having Sevilla instead of Cadiz you lose a port in the atlantic and the "atlantic access" resource. The river (Guadalquivir) was navigable by those times. I can change one plains tile for a coast one... but I don't like how it looks.

Sorry. We crossposted. Did you see my comments above and on the other thread?

 

[JediClemente]

BTW I always build Sevilla instead of Cadiz in my games. I think we could fix the city placement by moving the Cordoba start one tile west, making room to build Granada, as I have suggested before. How would that be for you?

Yes, I think Cordoba is too much on the east as it is now.

I like that idea, even though some cities are still wrongly placed, but I've played with the worldbuilder a bit and it's the lesser evil, as you put it.

I'd have Cartagena instead of Alicante (in the same tile). And as I've said, it could be good changing settler maps to make sure Cordoba or Spain build Sevilla and Granada at least.

Also have in mind the south of Spain is not supposed to be productive at all, only the copper near Cadiz/Sevilla indicates a real mining area.

As it is now Cordoba (the city) is a powerhouse and that should be changed. At its peak it was the hugest city in all Europe. You could say in the game that means a GP generator, not a production one.

I'd like Cordoba's survival to be as difficult as the Egyptian one in RFC; it's just how things are supposed to be, a doomed civ from the start.

 

[JediClemente]

Another thing, what if by 1550 the Spanish capital is automatically moved to Toledo (if already conquered), and renamed as Madrid?

 

[jessiecat]

Another thing, what if by 1550 the Spanish capital is automatically moved to Toledo (if already conquered), and renamed as Madrid?

I've done this playing as Spain myself. It takes about 6 turns. Why should the AI care?
It really doesn't need to be automatic IMO.

 

[JediClemente]

I've done this playing as Spain myself. It takes about 6 turns. Why should the AI care?
It really doesn't need to be automatic IMO.

Well, it's more of a matter of eyecandy than anything.

Same as the ottoman capital going to Istanbul in RFC, or renaming Edo as Tokyo.

As the scenario takes from 500 to 1800, for a lot of turns Madrid was the capital of Spain. Leon, Burgos, Valladolid and most of the other "old castillian" towns lost a great deal of importance.

 

[Lexad]

I'm not sure I understand. I could do this. However, if the csv file has your corrected names though, I would just put it into the file that controls this for the mod directly. I could then output a WBS from that file as well.

The thing I want to do is you give me csv with names already on the map (for Russia and Kievan Rus), me editing and sending you back, you putting it back into WBS. Is this feasible?