RFC Europe: Extending/Fixing City Name Maps

[micbic]

Interesting and accurate, i.e. a very good idea. I approve of it.

 

[jessiecat]

Interesting and accurate, i.e. a very good idea. I approve of it.

I have no objection but I think new players and even experienced ones will find it hard to get used to thinking of them as "Romaii" instead of Byzantine. Maybe we should do the same with Franks and French as well.

 

[micbic]

And also Hungarian to Magyars, I would say.

 

[Michael Vick]

@3Miro: The Byzantines called indeed themselves ''Romans'' (Romii in Greek), so Roman would be, in that view, a good term. On the other hand, historians call them ''Eastern Roman'' before Heraclius and ''Byzantine'' after him. The term ''Greek'' should be used for any respawn after 1600. And I will take the Russian map.
@MichaelVick: Thinking it better, I tend to agree with your first opinion. When I told about putting the names as ''not exactly as in your map'', I don't tell about the names (here I copied from your map and Spanish variants from wikipedia), but about the placing. The map I made goes too north (even Venice has been given the Spanish name), so you don't need to work further on it. I didn't say I worked on Corsica yet, I don't think it is Italy . OK for Sassari, Alguer, Oristan and any other points. Civita is the medieval name for Olbia and samely Monteleone the medieval name for Vibo Valentia (both of them were the ancient Roman name that were re-used by Mussolini). Vieste is a town in E Italy, between Pescara and Bari. Any other mistakes may be effect of the use of the 2x2 preference per city.
Other compalints welcome

When I said "need I continue North?" I meant complaining. I gave you the map for all of Italy and then some in France. I've gone over it several times for accuracy and there might be one or two ways to improve it like the Monteleone thing, but I think it would be overall better if my map wasn't used as the last resort. I mean the most important thing is that cities don't end up in completely different situations than in real life. I'm referring to how some cities ended up on seas that they're not supposed to come into contact with (Benevento, Tarento). While you're doing my Morocco, Corsica, Southern France, SE Spain maps I'd like it if you could tell me what you're going to change so I can discuss it.

Also, the 2x2 square of tiles in the Madrid area should all be named "Mayrit" as opposed to Cuenca.

 

[3Miro]

Interesting and accurate, i.e. a very good idea. I approve of it.

The Byzantines -> The Romaii
The Byzantine Empire -> The Romaii Empire

What I need is:
Byzantium -> ???
Byzantine (as is Byzantine culture) -> ???

 

[micbic]

Byzantium to Roman Empire (in Greek is ''Romaiki''), samely ''Romaiki culture''.
But I think the term Roman would be more familiar to playtesters and players, than ''Romaii'' which id used by 15 millions all over the world.

 

[3Miro]

Byzantium to Roman Empire (in Greek is ''Romaiki''), samely ''Romaiki culture''.
But I think the term Roman would be more familiar to playtesters and players, than ''Romaii'' which id used by 15 millions all over the world.

Roman is more familiar, but it gets confusing with Pope's Rome.

 

[micbic]

Eastern Roman, then. It both shows those people's belief that they were offsprings of the Roman culture (even though after Heraclius the primary culture had more Greek than Latin components) and discriminates between the ''Byzantines'' and the Papal states.
EDIT: @MichaelVick: I will let you know if I do changes (I may change the placement according to the existing one, but I will try to keep the names as you have them.

 

[Michael Vick]

Base it on my map, an atlas, or whatever map off the internet but whatever you do, don't base it on the current one, it's completely wrong and innacurate.

 

[jessiecat]

The Byzantines -> The Romaii
The Byzantine Empire -> The Romaii Empire

What I need is:
Byzantium -> ???
Byzantine (as is Byzantine culture) -> ???

AFAIK Byzantium was the original Greek name for the city before it was changed to Constantinople in 330AD.

 

[Michael Vick]

I think the Greek name was Byzantion, then the Roman name was Byzantium, then changed to Constantinople

 

[3Miro]

AFAIK Byzantium was the original Greek name for the city before it was changed to Constantinople in 330AD.

Right, but from Constantine to 15xx it hasn't been used. Byzantines themselves never used it to describe themselves, and everyone surrounding them (Turks and Bulgarian in particular) called them Romai, Romei, Rum, Rom or something along those lines.

 

[Samsa]

In fact the term Byzantine Empire was established far later in history. The now as Byzantine Empire known called and identified themself as the Roman Empire. Even as the West Roman Empire and East Roman Empire existed, they never thought it as two different Empires, but as one with two emporers. This Western and Eastern names also were introduced in the modern time.

But I don't think it would be better to name the Roman Empire, cause the HRE and the early Frankonian Empire also claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire. AND if we name the early Frankonians French in the game we also should use the modern name for the Byzantine Empire.

 

[3Miro]

In fact the term Byzantine Empire was established far later in history. The now as Byzantine Empire known called and identified themself as the Roman Empire. Even as the West Roman Empire and East Roman Empire existed, they never thought it as two different Empires, but as one with two emporers. This Western and Eastern names also were introduced in the modern time.

But I don't think it would be better to name the Roman Empire, cause the HRE and the early Frankonian Empire also claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire. AND if we name the early Frankonians French in the game we also should use the modern name for the Byzantine Empire.

The French used to be Franks, I don't know why they got changed. They should start as Franks and eventually change to French (i.e. dynamic civ names).

I want to use Romaii for the Byzantines so we don't mix them with all the other "Romes"

 

[Myri]

There is a typo, a Burgund city Bale instead of Basle south of honey.

bye Myri

 

[sedna17]

@micbic: Attached is a new version of the city re-namer program. The only update is new (Alpha 5) maps. Hopefully it works. I haven't had time to test it under Windows. Remember, it reads the city name file from the RFCEMaps.py in the same directory as the python program. Since this is likely out-of-date at this point, you'll need to replace it with a more current version.

Get back to your thesis and stop waisting time here

As much as I would like to have you back (working on the mod I mean), you have more important things to do now.

Yes mommy.

Actually I am back to my thesis now after a little relaxation break. I'll see ya'll again sometime mid-to-late August.

 

[jessiecat]

Thanks for the updated CityName Helper. But people using it should be warned that the names on it are not updated. There have been quite a few changes on it since then. For example the ones on the British Isles which I amended quite a long time ago. That said it's still very useful.
Thanks again and Good luck with your thesis.

@ micbic Here is my revision covering Greenland, Iceland, the Faroes, Shetland and Orkney only. As I said, the other names on the map are from an old version.

 

[micbic]

@sedna17: Good luck and thx for the updated map!
@jessiecat: Thanks for the update. Which maps have you edited? (I would guess the Norse and the English)
@3Miro: I would propose, for better syntaxis and acuracy, to turn the Byzantines definition to ''Rum Empire''. In greek syntaxis, it would be better to make it ''Empire of Romioi'' (pronounced Romji) if you prefer this term.

 

[Feyaria]

I dont understand why you want to change the name of the byzantines. Thats their name in the english language, in civ and in RFC. Even if they were called Romaii by themselves or their neighbours, it doesn't matter.

If you want to have every civ with a name in their own language, then you have to use Deutschland, Österreich, España... (and use the font from normal cvi or RFC, ö, ü, ä and all other special chars work there!)

The game language is still english, so most names should be english. The localized city names is a great feature, but i think all other names should be english (or language dependend, if you change the language in the user interface)

But maybe the game language should be latin, as that was almost the only written language in Europe till 16/17th century.

 

[3Miro]

I dont understand why you want to change the name of the byzantines. Thats their name in the english language, in civ and in RFC. Even if they were called Romaii by themselves or their neighbours, it doesn't matter.

If you want to have every civ with a name in their own language, then you have to use Deutschland, Österreich, España... (and use the font from normal cvi or RFC, ö, ü, ä and all other special chars work there!)

The game language is still english, so most names should be english. The localized city names is a great feature, but i think all other names should be english (or language dependend, if you change the language in the user interface)

But maybe the game language should be latin, as that was almost the only written language in Europe till 16/17th century.

You can make the same argument for the units that speak different languages, but it just doesn't sound right to have Cossacks speak English.

If we could work around the limitations of the fonts, we would be using Osterreich. Actually the difference between Osterrich is Austria is just the language, the difference between Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire is somewhat in the meaning itself. Byzantines is a made up name long after the fall of the Empire, I would call them Roman Empire, but that causes confusion with the Pope. Actually we can change the Pope's city and country to Vatican, which may or may bot be more accurate.

The statement that Latin was the "mostly" written language in Europe in false (unless you don't consider eastern Europe as part of Europe).