RFC Europe Independents

[st.lucifer]

I prefer the Calais option. Even though Caen is important in terms of the Norman invasion of Britain, flipping it from Britain is kinda backwards. Calais remained part of England right up to Henry VIII's time so it is a much better choice IMO. What you do need to prevent however is France wanting to settle south of London before England spawns. That is really annoying.
I agree about Sicily. A lot of people could want it esp. if we give it enough resources to attract their interest.
BTW Are we decided now on the indies so they can be included in the next version? I guess you read my post above about not including Warsaw in your square so Poland can expand there?

I'm ok with not having Warsawa in. The one reason I'm inclined to give Poland (and Hungary) a city to flip is that they're starting out in an area full of powerful neighbors (especially true in Hungary's case) without much of a power base. Somehow, Bulgaria does fine under similar conditions, but in the games I've played, I've never seen Poland or Hungary get anywhere. Almost every other civ (Portugal being another notable, weak exception) flips at least one city upon spawning, which gives them at least one developed city with an infrastructure base. The Ottomans, for example, would really suffer if they weren't getting cities that had been built up by the Byzantines and the Arabs - I worry that the Poles and Hungarians will always be at a competitive disadvantage without any help. Still, I'll leave it off for now pending further playtesting and discussion.
One possible solution to this problem is to give Poland and Hungary an extra settler upon spawning, and give their newly founded cities more starting buildings than they would normally contain.

Especially Spain (Aragon, once an indepedent nation, had all the West Mediterranean islands and Naples under control at once) and Arabs, but Byzantines could be interested for Sicily and Southern Italy too (before the Norman invasion, Italy south of Rome was Byzantine).

While this is entirely true and historically accurate, the Byzantines are a superpower from the beginning of the game, completely able to impose their will and dominance anywhere on the map. If we give them an interest in Italy, they'll take Italy and nobody else will be willing to risk a war with them to claim it. I think we're better off sacrificing some historical accuracy to keep the biggest and strongest civ in the game from expanding its early lead.

 

[micbic]

While this is entirely true and historically accurate, the Byzantines are a superpower from the beginning of the game, completely able to impose their will and dominance anywhere on the map. If we give them an interest in Italy, they'll take Italy and nobody else will be willing to risk a war with them to claim it. I think we're better off sacrificing some historical accuracy to keep the biggest and strongest civ in the game from expanding its early lead.

OK. I suppose Spanish and Arabs are both to be interested in Sicily?

 

[jessiecat]

OK. I suppose Spanish and Arabs are both to be interested in Sicily?

Yes. And also Genoa IMO.

 

[onedreamer]

Venice would be interested in game terms as well, especially if Genoa is

 

[sedna17]

In order to get their locations correct, it would be good if someone (St. Lucifer?) could put all the rest of the independent cities into a WorldBuilderSave. I'll use this to get the coordinates of the late-spawning cities and make them spawn at the appropriate time in the Python. We also need to give them age-appropriate initial defenders so they aren't too easy to kill. Again, you could add these units to a WorldBuilderSave.

I'd use this list of times for the later cities. Are all the current indy cities supposed to spawn at 500 AD, or would you prefer some of them get moved back too?

700 AD:
Dublin
Edinburgh
York
Tonsberg (flips to Norse)
Lubeck

800 AD:
Leipzig
Prague
Kharkov
Minsk
Novgorod
Kazan
Samara

900 AD:
Breslau
Gdansk (flips to Poland)
Memel
Riga
Vologda
Smolensk (flips to Moscow)
Tver
Yaroslavl

 

[jessiecat]

I've gone ahead and done that for you as I already had most of it saved on an excel map anyway. I've flagged all the locations with the starting dates you suggested. Please note that, as agreed, Kracow is now the start for Poland so they would flip Breslau on spawn. I've also flagged the two suggested location changes for Toledo and Pamplona (1 tile east in both cases). I've saved it as a saved game rather than WB. I hope that's OK.

 

[sedna17]

Yeah, the saved game file is okay, thanks.

 

[micbic]

Perhaps Prague should be moved 2-3 tiles north, in the springs of Elva.

 

[3Miro]

Only the 500AD cities should go on the WB save. All later Indy cities are to be codedin Python. It is on the to-do list right after fixing the Norse UHV and UP.

 

[sedna17]

Hey 3Miro,

Welcome back. I added the independent cities via Python in the latest test build, available through my post on the Files thread*. In fact, I decided to move most of the 500 AD cities there too (Roma being the exception) so that it was all basically in one place. I have some more modifications to this file in progress -- I'll finish them up and send it to you. At that point, I don't plan further modifications to the Python, and will resume doing XML work. That way we won't duplicate effort.

*I've been dropping the C++ source code in the latest full test builds. Obviously I haven't changed anything there, so you can just throw in the last version of the source code you have and go from there.

 

[3Miro]

I have some catching up to do, but I am back.

I will start working on the UPs, I would need to change some some stuff to synchronize them with python. I want to make it so that we can change the Promotions and terrain without worrying about c++. I will wait for the independents python file before I do any work there. I don't expect any would be necessary for that file anyway.

 

[sedna17]

My suggestions;

1. Eliminate Tours, Leipzig, Memel, Minsk, Tver and Pisa

2. Make indies fight each other (Always at war?) and slow their tech rate. Agreed.

3. Change Pamplona, Nantes, Beograd, Riga and Kharkov to barbarian. Add Astrakhan as a strong barbarian base for later invasions.

4. Barbarian invasions able to raze indy cities but not civ ones?

5, More plagues but shorter duration. (who really luvs plague anyway?)

6. Minimum distance between cities to be increased from 1 to 2.

7. More incentive for AI civs to expand as required for their UHV conditions.

8. Code in respawning for all civs in core area cities where historically appropriate.

EDIT

9. Indys not allowed to build wonders (In my last game they built 6)

Just moving this over to the appropriate place. The way the code works, it's very easy to remove/re-add an indy city spawn (just comment it out), so I've been deleting some in my latest test version. I can't seem to make them fight each other yet though.

 

[sedna17]

Barbarians are coded as "Independents", so discussion of them belongs here.

There are two main ways to add barbarians, as cities (already implemented) and as spawning units. You specify for each barb "event":

1. A time period
2. A box inside which barbs will spawn at a random non-occupied location
3. The unit type and number (easily modified by difficulty)
4. The frequency with which the spawn event happens.

So, suggestions? For the box, you can just post a screenshot of the map area and I'll convert to coordinates (these can, obviously, be somewhat rough). The more specific the better.

So far here are my rough ideas:

• Animals. A few wolves/bears in Scandinavia/Russia and Lions in Africa for flavor. Anytime before 1000 AD
  
• Mediterranean pirates (light early on, heavy in the 1500-1800 time-frame). Start as triremes, transitions to caravals, carracks, war galleons at some point.
  
• Misc. Germanic barbarians. Axemen and spearman in France, Italy, Germany, Spain from 500 AD to 800 AD. Mounted Infantry in this area from 800 AD to 1000 AD.
  
• The Avars in Hungary 550 AD to 800 AD. Horse Archers.
  
• Misc other asiatic tribes. Small numbers of Horse Archers in Russia/Ukraine before 1000 AD
  
• Cuman and Pechenegs. 800-1100 AD. Horse Archers and then Light Cavalry. Spawning in the Ukraine?
  
• Seljuk Turks. Anatolia. 1070 AD to before Ottoman spawn. Unsure on units.
  
• Mongols! A huge number of keshiks (equiv to knights). 1250 all along the eastern edge of the map, but heaviest north of the black sea.

 

[st.lucifer]

My response to Jessiecat's suggestions on indies:

1. I'd be in favor of eliminating Nantes over Tours, but am fine with eliminating Leipzig, Memel, and Tver. I have reservations about eliminating Pisa and Minsk - I think that Minsk fills an area that doesn't have a lot of competition, and Pisa's sort of a special case.

What I'd suggest doing on the Pisa/Firenze problem is propose putting Firenze in the Venetian core area so that it flips on spawn. This gives Genoa Pisa and Venice Firenze, pits them against each other, and hopefully provides them with enough of a bulwark against the independents in Rome that they don't get recaptured or wiped out.

2. I'm in favor of both proposals - a crawling tech rate and always_war with each other if possible. This may lead to some consolidation in places with independents close to each other, but if it's workable it seems like a good idea.

3. I'm in favor of eliminating both Pamplona and Nantes, so I'd rather not see them as barb cities. However, we could make Burdigala or Tolouse barbarian, and they'd be more likely to affect multiple civs (France, Burgundy, Spain, and Independents), whereas Pamplona would only affect Spain and maybe Cordoba, and Nantes only France.

I like Beograd, Kharkov, Astrakhan (although there's no Caspian or river delta to put it on - I might consider changing the map to introduce that), and maybe Riga as barb cities.

4. I'm fine with barbs being able to raze any city. They razed Kiev!

5. Is there a way to modify or randomize the severity of plague? For instance, have a short plague (like a major influenza outbreak) that hits hard but lasts only a turn or two, and a long plague like the Black Death which lingers?

6. With the map as resource-rich as it is, I think the 1 tile spacing is ok. I realize that it's often used illogically or abused by the AI (I don't understand why Hungary does that), but too many parts of Europe are tightly packed with important cities and valuable resources to increase the distance requirement to 2. I understand the argument, but if there's a way we can address it by changing the AI behavior, I think that's a better solution.

7, 8. No objections.

9. If the indies are constantly at war with each other, they won't spend as much time building wonders. If they tech really slowly, they may not be able to. Let's see if we can modify the behavior rather than imposing the arbitrary restriction.

 

[st.lucifer]

Barbarians are coded as "Independents", so discussion of them belongs here.

There are two main ways to add barbarians, as cities (already implemented) and as spawning units. You specify for each barb "event":

1. A time period
2. A box inside which barbs will spawn at a random non-occupied location
3. The unit type and number (easily modified by difficulty)
4. The frequency with which the spawn event happens.

So, suggestions? For the box, you can just post a screenshot of the map area and I'll convert to coordinates (these can, obviously, be somewhat rough). The more specific the better.

So far here are my rough ideas:

• Animals. A few wolves/bears in Scandinavia/Russia and Lions in Africa for flavor. Anytime before 1000 AD
  
• Mediterranean pirates (light early on, heavy in the 1500-1800 time-frame). Start as triremes, transitions to caravals, carracks, war galleons at some point.
  
• Misc. Germanic barbarians. Axemen and spearman in France, Italy, Germany, Spain from 500 AD to 800 AD. Mounted Infantry in this area from 800 AD to 1000 AD.
  
• The Avars in Hungary 550 AD to 800 AD. Horse Archers.
  
• Misc other asiatic tribes. Small numbers of Horse Archers in Russia/Ukraine before 1000 AD
  
• Cuman and Pechenegs. 800-1100 AD. Horse Archers and then Light Cavalry. Spawning in the Ukraine?
  
• Seljuk Turks. Anatolia. 1070 AD to before Ottoman spawn. Unsure on units.
  
• Mongols! A huge number of keshiks (equiv to knights). 1250 all along the eastern edge of the map, but heaviest north of the black sea.

I like it.

I'd also add in wolf spawns in the forests of Germany and France, and bear spawns in the Carpathians, anytime before maybe 1300 or so. They'd only be able to pick off workers and unescorted settlers, but that seems reasonable to me.

 

[jessiecat]

My response to Jessiecat's suggestions on indies:

1. I'd be in favor of eliminating Nantes over Tours, but am fine with eliminating Leipzig, Memel, and Tver. I have reservations about eliminating Pisa and Minsk - I think that Minsk fills an area that doesn't have a lot of competition, and Pisa's sort of a special case.

What I'd suggest doing on the Pisa/Firenze problem is propose putting Firenze in the Venetian core area so that it flips on spawn. This gives Genoa Pisa and Venice Firenze, pits them against each other, and hopefully provides them with enough of a bulwark against the independents in Rome that they don't get recaptured or wiped out.

2. I'm in favor of both proposals - a crawling tech rate and always_war with each other if possible. This may lead to some consolidation in places with independents close to each other, but if it's workable it seems like a good idea.

3. I'm in favor of eliminating both Pamplona and Nantes, so I'd rather not see them as barb cities. However, we could make Burdigala or Tolouse barbarian, and they'd be more likely to affect multiple civs (France, Burgundy, Spain, and Independents), whereas Pamplona would only affect Spain and maybe Cordoba, and Nantes only France.

I like Beograd, Kharkov, Astrakhan (although there's no Caspian or river delta to put it on - I might consider changing the map to introduce that), and maybe Riga as barb cities.

4. I'm fine with barbs being able to raze any city. They razed Kiev!

5. Is there a way to modify or randomize the severity of plague? For instance, have a short plague (like a major influenza outbreak) that hits hard but lasts only a turn or two, and a long plague like the Black Death which lingers?

6. With the map as resource-rich as it is, I think the 1 tile spacing is ok. I realize that it's often used illogically or abused by the AI (I don't understand why Hungary does that), but too many parts of Europe are tightly packed with important cities and valuable resources to increase the distance requirement to 2. I understand the argument, but if there's a way we can address it by changing the AI behavior, I think that's a better solution.

7, 8. No objections.

9. If the indies are constantly at war with each other, they won't spend as much time building wonders. If they tech really slowly, they may not be able to. Let's see if we can modify the behavior rather than imposing the arbitrary restriction.

And my responses to your responses.

1. I agree with most of what you say. Let's drop Nantes but keep Tours. Drop Pamplona, Leipzig, Memel and Tver. Your probably right about Minsk so keep that. I'm fine with keeping Pisa if it flips to Genoa and if Florence flips to Venice.
2. Agreed
3. Change Toulouse, Beograd, Kharkov and maybe Riga and Vologda to barbs. Add Astrakhan as a barb. (see screenshot below. There is a delta there.)
4. Barbs can raze anybody. Agreed.
5. Three or four plagues. The Black Death and a couple of shorter ones.
6. Don't like close-spaced cities. I always raze one. But I can live with that.
7.,8. Agreed
9. You're probably right. Agreed

EDIT I also agree with Sedna's list of barbs and animals. The barb spawns look fine. Astrakhan could
be the spawn point for the Mongols though one group should appear in Anatolia after the Seljuk Turks. And a barb Kharkov for the Cumans and Pechenegs. To answer sednas question, like most Central Asian nomadic tribes the Seljuks excelled at horse archery. But I'll research further on that.

BTW There were lots of bears and wolves in Britain the early Middle Ages until the Normans killed them off.

 

[st.lucifer]

A proposal:


I would like to revisit the list of independent cities, both for pruning and for some new additions (!).


I think we may be taking the wrong approach in having spawning civs found their capitals in unoccupied space. Most of the capital cities are in areas that were population centers or major cities long before the spawning civs arrived, and should probably be represented as cities which flip immediately upon spawn and become the capital.
If we break it down by civ, it looks like this:

These civs should definitely have their capital city in place upon spawn:
Byzantium, France, Arabia, England, Poland, Portugal, and Austria.

These civs should probably have their capital city in place upon spawn:
Burgundy, Cordoba, Kiev, Germany, Moscow, Netherlands, Venice, Sweden

It may be appropriate for these civs to have their capital city in place upon spawn:
Spain, Genoa, Ottomans

It's probably appropriate that these civs start with settlers:
Bulgaria, Norse, Hungary


Implementing these cities (even if they only show up one turn before the civ spawns) gives the late-spawning civs a running start, makes city flips between civs and wars more common, and increases our level of historic accuracy.

Now, I'm not sure how to code this, but it seems like it should be doable. We can easily do it for France, and can justify doing it for Burgundy, which takes care of our opening civs. It'll be more of a challenge to implement for spawning civs, but isn't the code available from the 600 AD start in standard RFC?

 

[jessiecat]

I think we're agreed with most of the indies to drop. Instead of any new indies I wouldn't mind a couple more barbs on the periphery like Abo in Finland and one in the Azov area for barb spawn along with Astrakan as proposed above. But lets not get overcrowded again in the rest of Europe.

As far as having capitols pre-built I'm happy with your list although I think Spain has a better case than Germany. But the reasoning behind your idea is quite sound. I'll vote for it if it can be implemented as easily as the RFC 600AD start. Easier to adjust units and techs too I imagine.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Instead of any new indies I wouldn't mind a couple more barbs on the periphery like Abo in Finland and one in the Azov area for barb spawn along with Astrakan as proposed above.

By this do you mean a barbarian city of just a bunch of barbarians? Both would be kinda wrong, there were no major settlements in Finland before the Swedish arrived, and the Swedish didn't face a major resistance in Finland that could be represented by a group of barbarians.

 

[jessiecat]

By this do you mean a barbarian city of just a bunch of barbarians? Both would be kinda wrong, there were no major settlements in Finland before the Swedish arrived, and the Swedish didn't face a major resistance in Finland that could be represented by a group of barbarians.

OK. How about a few wolves and bears, just for flavour?