RFC Europe Independents

[jessiecat]

I'm just telling that I found Toledo as ''Toletum'' in a Wikipedia map of the Visigoth Empire.
Moreover, I would be in favor of dropping Valencia for Carthago Nova, which was more of an important city at that time.
I would also like to share a nice webpage I found as searching for those. www.euratlas.net It also shows Toledo as Toletum.

The problem with the euratlas site is that everywhere on all its early maps is in Latin. That doesn't mean the Visigoths in the 6th.C were speaking Latin and naming their cities with Latin names. They adopted the local Iberian name. Which was Toledo. Still I think its a French site isn't it? What do you expect?

BTW Valencia was founded as Valentia by the Romans in 137BC and continued to be important thru the whole of our mod. Carthago Nova was founded earlier by the Cathaginians and was important in Roman times but it was completely destroyed by the Vandals about 435AD. Therefore it did not exist at the beginning of our mod.

 

[micbic]

The problem with the euratlas site is that everywhere on all its early maps is in Latin. That doesn't mean the Visigoths in the 6th.C were speaking Latin and naming their cities with Latin names. They adopted the local Iberian name. Which was Toledo. Still I think its a French site isn't it? What do you expect?

Heh? What's that? Classical English anti-francoism? Anyhow, I suppose you are right at your point.

 

[JediClemente]

The problem with the euratlas site is that everywhere on all its early maps is in Latin. That doesn't mean the Visigoths in the 6th.C were speaking Latin and naming their cities with Latin names. They adopted the local Iberian name. Which was Toledo. Still I think its a French site isn't it? What do you expect?

BTW Valencia was founded as Valentia by the Romans in 137BC and continued to be important thru the whole of our mod. Carthago Nova was founded earlier by the Cathaginians and was important in Roman times but it was completely destroyed by the Vandals about 435AD. Therefore it did not exist at the beginning of our mod.

I don't understand your comment. By the 6th century there was no such thing as an "iberian", pre-roman language standing (one could argue about basque, but that's only in its region, not the whole Peninsula).

Visigoths did in fact have to speak latin with the "natives". The spanish languague is about a mixture of 60% latin + 15% arabic (some linguists would say even less than that) + pass of time and extern influences. There are very few, if any, spanish words with visigoth/barbaric roots; and some of them are disputed nowadays.

Toledo was Toletum by that time.

Carthago Nova was indeed destroyed by the vandals, and never recovered that high importance, but it was rebuilt as Cartagena and still a major naval seaport later by the time of Philip II. It's even a big naval shipyard today, on par with Cadiz and Vigo.

 

[jessiecat]

I don't understand your comment. By the 6th century there was no such thing as an "iberian", pre-roman language standing (one could argue about basque, but that's only in its region, not the whole Peninsula).

Visigoths did in fact have to speak latin with the "natives". The spanish languague is about a mixture of 60% latin + 15% arabic (some linguists would say even less than that) + pass of time and extern influences. There are very few, if any, spanish words with visigoth/barbaric roots; and some of them are disputed nowadays.

Toledo was Toletum by that time.

Carthago Nova was indeed destroyed by the vandals, and never recovered that high importance, but it was rebuilt as Cartagena and still a major naval seaport later by the time of Philip II. It's even a big naval shipyard today, on par with Cadiz and Vigo.

I bow to your expertise. Though the stuff I've read about Visigothic Spain describes the capitol as Toledo. I'm sure you're right about Latin being used but wasn't there also an existing Iberian language like Suevi which was spoken by ordinary people?
Anyway. I think we can agree that Valencia was more important than Cartagena until the latter was developed by Philip II as a naval base. When Cordoba spawns, it really should be indy Valencia rather than Cartagena, don't you think?

 

[JediClemente]

I bow to your expertise. Though the stuff I've read about Visigothic Spain describes the capitol as Toledo. I'm sure you're right about Latin being used but wasn't there also an existing Iberian language like Suevi which was spoken by ordinary people?
Anyway. I think we can agree that Valencia was more important than Cartagena until the latter was developed by Philip II as a naval base. When Cordoba spawns, it really should be indy Valencia rather than Cartagena, don't you think?

The suevi were another germanic tribe which came to Iberia before the visigoths, just like the vandals and alans (?).

Hispania was, apart from Italy (logically), the most romanized territory in the whole empire. Only some parts in the far north of the Peninsula were less touched by that influence (such as the Basque country, but I suppose you can imagine why that's a highly debated and controversial issue).

Most of the inhabitants spoke latin, or better put a slightly bastardized version of it (when Seneca first went to Rome he was laughed at for that). It's often said visigoths "romanized" themselves after conquering Hispania.

But please don't call this expertise. It's just that I still remember well my high school history stuff.

I seem to recall Toledo was only called like that with the Reconquista, but am not sure.

Anyway, I agree Valencia is a better fit than Cartagena for the mod. El Cid conquered it, after all (I still liked my idea to have wonders/projects after great literary works ).