RFC Europe map development thread

[st.lucifer]

On a lighter note, an Ice Age mod would be cool.

...no pun intended.

Agreed. I always liked that map.

 

[jessiecat]

On a lighter note, an Ice Age mod would be cool.

...no pun intended.

Ya, there's at least one I know. And very boring it is too.

BTW Are we OK now about the 1300 start for the Ottomans? If so, I really
think the green Osman flag would be most appropriate. Then all the Muslim
civs would include green and they'd be a nice contrast from the red ones.

 

[jessiecat]

My point was that I'm using the ice as a stand-in for the moor terrain for now. I'm fine with changing some of that back to grass, and if you can show me which squares should be higher production, I'll be happy to change them. I think we had decided that the moor terrain would have the same stats as plains but would gain no bonuses from irrigation.

I'm sorry if I come off as overly sensitive. I just didn't expect anyone to take the map so literally - I initially stayed away from the ice because of the jarring visual effect, but I couldn't think of anything else to use as a stand-in and I figured that at the very least, it would be easy to find and replace it once we had the new terrain added. I'm not mad, just frustrated.

I do welcome your suggestions and input, and I'll probably make some of the adjustments for cities that you suggested.

Thanks for your reply and kind words. And maybe I took umbrage at your
frustration a little too quickly. my apologies. It's just that I just saw that
Ice Age cartoon on the telly. The thought of this beautiful, warm part of
the country looking like that filled me with horror.

Seriously though. I've just been looking at Worldbuilder and I might have
the solution. SW England and Wales could all be hills producing 1 food, more
if you could irrigate them. Small moorland areas could be represented by
tundra. Is there such a thing as a tundra hill? Same for Scotland and the
North of England, except for a few mountain tiles in the Lake District and
North Wales and Scotland. Most Scottish hills could be wooded with the
odd deer and salmon in the rivers. That'd get rid of all the white squares
and look more natural as well as producing some food for nearby cities.
How about that?

 

[Úmarth]

Ya, there's at least one I know. And very boring it is too.

BTW Are we OK now about the 1300 start for the Ottomans? If so, I really
think the green Osman flag would be most appropriate. Then all the Muslim
civs would include green and they'd be a nice contrast from the red ones.

I wasn't aware there was a green Osman flag. Where you getting your info?

PS. we should probably keep this on the one thread. Please reply there.

 

[jessiecat]

I wasn't aware there was a green Osman flag. Where you getting your info?

PS. we should probably keep this on the one thread. Please reply there.

Yes. I thought you'd seen it. It's on the Code Coordination thread, post 46
in reply to your new set.
According to Wiki, it's the religious flag first carried By Osman I, who started the
Ottoman dynasty in 1299. Nice flag, I think.
Here's a zip of it again.

 

[Úmarth]

Wikipedia describes it as being used by the Caliphate 1793-1844 (outside the timescale of the mod) or as a generic "religious flag" with no dates and no reference to Osman. I believe I said that on the other thread.

 

[Zipzapzup]

Why don't you load the original RFC files? There you got swamp and moor and things.

 

[jessiecat]

Wikipedia describes it as being used by the Caliphate 1793-1844 (outside the timescale of the mod) or as a generic "religious flag" with no dates and no reference to Osman. I believe I said that on the other thread.

My apology about that. Can't find the reference to Osman myself now.
So i guess the red and white crescent one will be fine.

 

[Úmarth]

Why don't you load the original RFC files? There you got swamp and moor and things.

AFAIK you can't use worldbuilder on a different map with RFC loaded without it freaking out. I may be wrong.

 

[jessiecat]

AFAIK you can't use worldbuilder on a different map with RFC loaded without it freaking out. I may be wrong.

Or just use the hills and tundra from Worldbuilder, as I suggested. I just
tried alterring it on lucifers' map. All I did was turn the snow to plains
or grassland and add a couple of wooded squares. All those grassed
hills look Ok and will provide some food. It looks fine.

 

[st.lucifer]

AFAIK you can't use worldbuilder on a different map with RFC loaded without it freaking out. I may be wrong.

Yeah, sadly, it doesn't work. Since RFC is so closely tied to individual map placements, putting a different map in makes it very unhappy.

Jessiecat, I'm going to leave the map the way it is right now - just suspend your assumption that the ice is actually ice, and assume that it gives 1 food, 1 hammer, and 1 trade next to a river. Eventually, we'll get the graphics loaded in to switch it out - but for now, I don't want to inaccurately use a terrain that already represents a land type which we have a lot of on the map. If we weren't using tundra for anything else, I'd go for that - but I'd rather demarcate it clearly as something we need to switch out, and ice is the best way of doing that. I seriously considered doing something similar with the marsh, because the jungle tiles can be easy to overlook.

What do you UK'ers think about the revised shape? I realized from looking at Disenfrancised's map alterations that I had made what I intended to be East Anglia look like the bulge SE of the Wash, so I did my best to correct it. I also added Anglesey to Wales, which I had somehow missed. Spain's still a bit distorted, but it sort of has to be with the projection.

 

[jessiecat]

Yeah, sadly, it doesn't work. Since RFC is so closely tied to individual map placements, putting a different map in makes it very unhappy.

Jessiecat, I'm going to leave the map the way it is right now - just suspend your assumption that the ice is actually ice, and assume that it gives 1 food, 1 hammer, and 1 trade next to a river. Eventually, we'll get the graphics loaded in to switch it out - but for now, I don't want to inaccurately use a terrain that already represents a land type which we have a lot of on the map. If we weren't using tundra for anything else, I'd go for that - but I'd rather demarcate it clearly as something we need to switch out, and ice is the best way of doing that. I seriously considered doing something similar with the marsh, because the jungle tiles can be easy to overlook.

What do you UK'ers think about the revised shape? I realized from looking at Disenfrancised's map alterations that I had made what I intended to be East Anglia look like the bulge SE of the Wash, so I did my best to correct it. I also added Anglesey to Wales, which I had somehow missed. Spain's still a bit distorted, but it sort of has to be with the projection.

I'm fine with the shape, though I wish East Anglia was a little bigger, so
we could fit a city on the coast, far enough away from London, ie Norwich.
Still, we can't have everything. The maps not big enough for that.

I'm trying to get my head around your reasoning on the other issue. I've
been playing with Worldbuilder myself and what I think is as in my last
post. Why are you trying to make Cornwall and Wales so unproductive?
If you used a base of grassland for all those hills and couldn't irrigate them,
they'd produce 2 food each, as they are. What's wrong with that?
In real life all the hills round here are covered with farms. Same in Wales.
There's very little moorland in these areas at all. Even in the north
of England where there is more, it's grassy and covered with sheep.

Where does this idea come from that hills and moorland are largely infertile
and unproductive? I've travelled all over this country for more than 30 years
and I've rarely come across moors that bleak except in small specific places
like Dartmoor, Exmoor,Bodmin, North Yorkshire, etc.
I'm not having a pop at you, but I wish you could see how green and
productive some of these places are. And down here, it's nearly as warm
as the Carolinas, although a lot wetter. I've even got a palm tree
outside my flat. All due to the Gulf Stream, of course.
We don't even get frosts in the winter. Maybe one light snowfall. that's all.
Anyway, I probably can't convince you without you seeing for yourself.
I guess you've got your own view and I've got mine. I don't want to fall
out about it. It's only a game, afterall.

 

[Úmarth]

Yeah, sadly, it doesn't work. Since RFC is so closely tied to individual map placements, putting a different map in makes it very unhappy.

Jessiecat, I'm going to leave the map the way it is right now - just suspend your assumption that the ice is actually ice, and assume that it gives 1 food, 1 hammer, and 1 trade next to a river. Eventually, we'll get the graphics loaded in to switch it out - but for now, I don't want to inaccurately use a terrain that already represents a land type which we have a lot of on the map. If we weren't using tundra for anything else, I'd go for that - but I'd rather demarcate it clearly as something we need to switch out, and ice is the best way of doing that. I seriously considered doing something similar with the marsh, because the jungle tiles can be easy to overlook.

What do you UK'ers think about the revised shape? I realized from looking at Disenfrancised's map alterations that I had made what I intended to be East Anglia look like the bulge SE of the Wash, so I did my best to correct it. I also added Anglesey to Wales, which I had somehow missed. Spain's still a bit distorted, but it sort of has to be with the projection.

The east coast looks fine. But I don't think it's perfect: the Hebrides, the Isle of Mann and the Isle of White look overrepresented. Also, did you see my suggestion about Eboracum/York on the last page? I think it deserves to be an independent city.

jessiecat may have a point with the moors. I'm not sure what the exact reasoning behind them is but though iconic, it's my understanding that moors are quite small; not the length of a square on the map at least. And I do live in Yorkshire, where most of the countries' moorland is found. That's not to say the north is particularly arable, but perhaps maybe that's adequately represented with hills and plains.

 

[st.lucifer]

I'm fine with the shape, though I wish East Anglia was a little bigger, so
we could fit a city on the coast, far enough away from London, ie Norwich.
Still, we can't have everything. The maps not big enough for that.

I'm trying to get my head around your reasoning on the other issue. I've
been playing with Worldbuilder myself and what I think is as in my last
post. Why are you trying to make Cornwall and Wales so unproductive?
If you used a base of grassland for all those hills and couldn't irrigate them,
they'd produce 2 food each, as they are. What's wrong with that?
In real life all the hills round here are covered with farms. Same in Wales.
There's very little moorland in these areas at all. Even in the north
of England where there is more, it's grassy and covered with sheep.

Where does this idea come from that hills and moorland are largely infertile
and unproductive? I've travelled all over this country for more than 30 years
and I've rarely come across moors that bleak except in small specific places
like Dartmoor, Exmoor,Bodmin, North Yorkshire, etc.
I'm not having a pop at you, but I wish you could see how green and
productive some of these places are. And down here, it's nearly as warm
as the Carolinas, although a lot wetter. I've even got a palm tree
outside my flat. All due to the Gulf Stream, of course.
We don't even get frosts in the winter. Maybe one light snowfall. that's all.
Anyway, I probably can't convince you without you seeing for yourself.
I guess you've got your own view and I've got mine. I don't want to fall
out about it. It's only a game, afterall.

Oh, no - that's fine. As I said in the initial post, I may have been too aggressive with replacing grass with moor. I'm ok with changing most of Cornwall and Devon back to grass - I'm working off a map that has Exmoor and Dartmoor very prominently labeled, which is probably the source of much of the problem. Most of my time in the UK has been spent doing geology field work in the Scottish Highlands, so my perspective may be just a bit skewed.

Game balance may also be an issue - in the original RFC map, the British Isles are good for four very large, very productive cities (with a fifth, less productive one in Plymouth), which can often forgo military production as they're unlikely to face a serious invasion. On a larger map like this one, maintaining that level of productivity (especially with accurate resource placement, with all of the metals and coal in Wales, Cornwall, and Northumbria) could easily make England the runaway leader in every game. But we'll work on that when the time comes.

 

[st.lucifer]

The east coast looks fine. But I don't think it's perfect: the Hebrides, the Isle of Mann and the Isle of White look overrepresented. Also, did you see my suggestion about Eboracum/York on the last page? I think it deserves to be an independent city.

jessiecat may have a point with the moors. I'm not sure what the exact reasoning behind them is but though iconic, it's my understanding that moors are quite small; not the length of a square on the map at least. And I do live in Yorkshire, where most of the countries' moorland is found. That's not to say the north is particularly arable, but perhaps maybe that's adequately represented with hills and plains.

I'm fine with putting York in as an independent. We need something up there anyway, and that's the best candidate. Feel free to add it.

I could detach the Hebrides from the main mass of Scotland. Would that be better? I had intended the bridge tile to represent Skye, but the west coast of Scotland is such a mess that we're going to have to simplify it dramatically. I'm flexible on that, so please feel free to propose changes.

 

[jessiecat]

The east coast looks fine. But I don't think it's perfect: the Hebrides, the Isle of Mann and the Isle of White look overrepresented. Also, did you see my suggestion about Eboracum/York on the last page? I think it deserves to be an independent city.

jessiecat may have a point with the moors. I'm not sure what the exact reasoning behind them is but though iconic, it's my understanding that moors are quite small; not the length of a square on the map at least. And I do live in Yorkshire, where most of the countries' moorland is found. That's not to say the north is particularly arable, but perhaps maybe that's adequately represented with hills and plains.

Thanks for your comments on moorland. I think we both have observed that
the really bleak, desolate places like Dartmoor are pretty small as a percent
of the UK as a whole. I guess I got pretty passionate about it cause I know
Cornwall's not at all like that in general.
I like your suggestion about York. Was it part of Northumbria or Mercia
in 500AD? Maybe it could flip to the Danes at some point then be at war
with Wessex by 900AD. Have you been to the Jorvik exhibit? Great!
Anyway, I'm fairly OK about the shape of the UK given the size of the map.
Gotta go. Just got up. Cofffee first priority. Have a good XMAS.

 

[jessiecat]

Oh, no - that's fine. As I said in the initial post, I may have been too aggressive with replacing grass with moor. I'm ok with changing most of Cornwall and Devon back to grass - I'm working off a map that has Exmoor and Dartmoor very prominently labeled, which is probably the source of much of the problem. Most of my time in the UK has been spent doing geology field work in the Scottish Highlands, so my perspective may be just a bit skewed.

Game balance may also be an issue - in the original RFC map, the British Isles are good for four very large, very productive cities (with a fifth, less productive one in Plymouth), which can often forgo military production as they're unlikely to face a serious invasion. On a larger map like this one, maintaining that level of productivity (especially with accurate resource placement, with all of the metals and coal in Wales, Cornwall, and Northumbria) could easily make England the runaway leader in every game. But we'll work on that when the time comes.

I guess I have been a bit fanatical in defending where I live. But it's a nice
area. Prob. why it gets so many tourists. And why we moved down here
from London a couple of years ago (both recently retired - Ya, I'm that old!)

Interesting about your geology work in the Scottish Highlands. Years ago,
I did a lot of mountain and fell walking in the Cairngorms. Fantastic scenary,
as you'll agree. I'm an ex-history teacher myself, still my first love, with
geography and maps a close second. So, I guess we have a lot in common.

A quick comment on game balance. I've had most of my best wins as the
English in RFC, but I think that's been accomplished by rushing Astronomy
and dominating N. America before the Americans spawn. They always
become my vassal (Sorry 'bout that!). However, in this mod, I don't think
the English will have such an advantage in expansion. Nowhere to go.
I don't really understand yet how you're going to handle colonies, but
it's early days yet.
Anyway, keep up the good work. It's appreciated.
And have a great XMAS!

 

[Úmarth]

Thanks for your comments on moorland. I think we both have observed that
the really bleak, desolate places like Dartmoor are pretty small as a percent
of the UK as a whole. I guess I got pretty passionate about it cause I know
Cornwall's not at all like that in general.
I like your suggestion about York. Was it part of Northumbria or Mercia
in 500AD? Maybe it could flip to the Danes at some point then be at war
with Wessex by 900AD. Have you been to the Jorvik exhibit? Great!
Anyway, I'm fairly OK about the shape of the UK given the size of the map.
Gotta go. Just got up. Cofffee first priority. Have a good XMAS.

Northumbria. I've been to Jorvik, I did a training excavation up there last summer by the same organisation that runs Jorvik and got free tickets.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Don't you think that since the British isles are bigger, Scotland can be included, or Ireland? I mean, Scotland's talking about becoming independent again at the moment, and Ireland *is* independent. Plus Scotland has not been a part of England for most of history. England could be named the United Kingdom if it had Scotland as a vassal or conqured their territory.

 

[Úmarth]

Just to be clear, Scotland isn't part of England. They are equal partners in a union.