The Portugal Thread

[wcascade]

Slight gloat, but before the civic changes I managed to get a Portugal UHV on Monarch/Epic and become a tech leader without collapsing!! Haven't tried since, but I'd imagine it'd be a little easier with the monarchy buff. UHV1 is probably the trickiest. There are a few islands that have all of its immediate tiles as part of the Indian Trade Route which will help you reach that %. It's a hard UHV which took me many attempts but it is entirely possible

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Slight gloat, but before the civic changes I managed to get a Portugal UHV on Monarch/Epic and become a tech leader without collapsing!! Haven't tried since, but I'd imagine it'd be a little easier with the monarchy buff. UHV1 is probably the trickiest. There are a few islands that have all of its immediate tiles as part of the Indian Trade Route which will help you reach that %. It's a hard UHV which took me many attempts but it is entirely possible

Me too hehe, also Epic. I started a few Normal games but have truly no idea how to pull it off in time. Side note: rolled a start in which I was able to found Porto.

 

[SOVNARKOM]

Can we add Nagasaki in the historical area of Portugal? Portuguese Nagasaki did indeed exist in history

 

[makka]

What's the deal with this:

UU: Rename Carrack to Não. At least one request for buffs.

?

"Não" is portuguese for "No".
I assume you meant "Nau" (prior to the 20th century written "Nao"), which wouldn't be the best choice either, since - although it was also used for a certain subtype of carrack - it basically just translates to "Ship".
If UUs are generally supposed to have a name in the native language of the respective civ, then "Carraca" would certainly be the one of choice.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

What's the deal with this:

?

"Não" is portuguese for "No".
I assume you meant "Nau" (prior to the 20th century written "Nao"), which wouldn't be the best choice either, since - although it was also used for a certain subtype of carrack - it basically just translates to "Ship".
If UUs are generally supposed to have a name in the native language of the respective civ, then "Carraca" would certainly be the one of choice.

Excellent contribution. I must confess to no small bit of embarrassment, and will update leading post to include your input.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I'm starting to favor reverting to previous UP, mainly for the AI's sake. This is subject to potential changes, but as things stand, I've seen the AI persistently hit -25 Expansion stability shortly after acquiring TC cities, and sometimes before if they trigger Aztec/Inca conqs and don't get either the 10-turn cushion before the Stability hit or the temporary bonus for gaining historical/conquest cities. Restoring the Azores to the Core (even if as a Period function) would certainly help at little risk to upsetting other balance concerns. In any case I'm far from impressed with the new UP in the first place - its potential is undercut by Maintenance, wouldn't serve the player toward UHV pursuit anyway, and doesn't reflect these overseas settlements' contribution to the Portuguese enterprise (I stand by my contention that they were *not* a mercantile people). In terms of ideas, for now I can at least repeat a version of an earlier proposal that would somehow enable getting more out of overseas expansion earlier, as was I believe the scrappy lil kingdom's true bread-n-butter.

 

[AOS9001]

I’ve been reading A. R. Disney’s history of Portugal from the neolithic to 1807 (almost done with volume one, volume two next) and I can safely say religion was a far bigger part of the Portuguese state’s mindset than commerce, especially after King John III switched civics from clergy to fanaticism by inviting in and empowering the Inquisition (to a such a degree that he had to blackmail the Pope, who thought he was going too far), which would last into the 19th century.

I’m planning a write up for potential UP and UHV revisions once I finish volume 2.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I’ve been reading A. R. Disney’s history of Portugal from the neolithic to 1807 (almost done with volume one, volume two next) and I can safely say religion was a far bigger part of the Portuguese state’s mindset than commerce, especially after King John III switched civics from clergy to fanaticism by inviting in and empowering the Inquisition (to a such a degree that he had to blackmail the Pope, who thought he was going too far), which would last into the 19th century.

I’m planning a write up for potential UP and UHV revisions once I finish volume 2.

Oh goodie, thanks for the reading reference. I've had in mind to expand my knowledge beyond my main source which has been Roger Crowley's Conquerors: How Portugal Forged the First Global Empire. Even just this title is illustrative; it isn't something like "Merchants: How Portugal Built the First Global Trade Network" or "Traders: How Portugal Bought Low and Sold High To Get Rich". The picture painted is one of a perpetual Crusade. And of course a description of the famous encounter between de Gama and the Malabar markets in which the captain became flummoxed upon finding out the petty trinkets brought from home didn't impress the spice traders one bit. Good to know you've gleaned similar impressions from your reading.

 

[AOS9001]

Oh goodie, thanks for the reading reference. I've had in mind to expand my knowledge beyond my main source which has been Roger Crowley's Conquerors: How Portugal Forged the First Global Empire. Even just this title is illustrative; it isn't something like "Merchants: How Portugal Built the First Global Trade Network" or "Traders: How Portugal Bought Low and Sold High To Get Rich". The picture painted is one of a perpetual Crusade. And of course a description of the famous encounter between de Gama and the Malabar markets in which the captain became flummoxed upon finding out the petty trinkets brought from home didn't impress the spice traders one bit. Good to know you've gleaned similar impressions from your reading.

I find it endlessly fascinating that Portugal as an identity was questionable right up until they kicked out the Hapsburgs. Disney's volume one repeatedly makes the point that were was no geographical, cultural, or political reason for Portugal to have come into existence. It became a kingdom because a Castilan king was interfering with the rights of the local nobility in the County of Portugal, so they chose their own king who would respect them (his descendants sure didn't lol). At multiple points Portugal could have easily fallen back into Castile's cultural orbit and been absorbed like Galicia, Navarre, and Aragon (loud Catalonian protestation not withstanding). I haven't finished the Hapsburg rule chapter of volume one yet, but right up until King Sebastian's death, Castilan Spanish was a prestige language in the Portuguese royal court. The national obsession with crusade seems like one of the things Portugal, as a national entity, latched onto before the Iberian Union.

That's a bit of a ramble, but I am convinced there needs to be a religious goal for this civ. The Reconquista, the neo-crusader mindset, and St. Francis Xavier being sent to the East by the King of Portugal, I think it all deserves representation.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

The Reconquista, the neo-crusader mindset, and St. Francis Xavier being sent to the East by the King of Portugal, I think it all deserves representation.

Bruh, does anything illustrate this point more than the freakin bonkers Prester John fantasy? Like, dudes what were yous smoking when this forging this gem? (Oh right, the workings of the Medieval mind).

I find it endlessly fascinating that Portugal as an identity was questionable right up until they kicked out the Hapsburgs.

Ditto. The transition from "stuff that some noble dudes could say is theirs cuz their super-great-grandad owned it once and also wear shiny headwear sometimes as alleged proof" to the things that are now nations are at the top of my historical interest list.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Has anybody tried a UHV game since Regulated Trade was moved to Companies?

 

[AOS9001]

Has anybody tried a UHV game since Regulated Trade was moved to Companies?

I got started on one but I've been too busy for Civ lately, unfortunately.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

@AOS9001 So it's doable and kinda interesting running some new civic regimes. There's also room for a stronger military approach to expansion as an alternative to the familiar Super Settler Spam, although tbf the spam kinda just moved to carracks and galleons. All that aside, these games did bubble up a UHV idea, though a humble one: represent what we might call a civ's Aspirational Goal: Keep the Empire. The new TC structure w/ its overlapping targets > colonial rivalry (possibly a four way brawl!) is already a built-in source of challenge and variety. I'd just love to see one tweak to Portugals TC targets by trading Tambralinga for the Malabar Coast.

 

[banzay13]

Hey, guys! We have New fun added by Leoreth!
Also switching to Slavery from the begging, getting some slaves from Mali and settle them in island cites can be very helpfull

 

[AOS9001]

The new Portugal update is going to force me to make some time for Civ this week. I need to try these new goals out!

 

[Hickman888]

Someone get @SultanRedSnake on the phone, I already know he's gonna get several test games done with the new Portugal.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Just saw update and trying to wrap my head around the implications. I like what I see though.

 

[AOS9001]

Playing Portugal for the first time in a while.. I'm moving much too slow, guess I'm out of practice on normal speed. No solid opinions on the new goals yet except that I like them a lot in principle.

But playing the civ brought to mind some changes to small but significant islands I've talked about before.

Spoiler Azores :

This was the last stop on the return route from India, it was important for taking on water or making repairs before the final leg to Lisboa. It really ought to have the Indian Ocean Trade route around it:

I still maintain it could use a resource, too. Or be part of Portugal's core, since it's remained an integral territory of this civ for over 600 years IRL... Just something to make this historically relevant island worth settling.

Spoiler Cape Verde :

Another important part of the Indian Ocean trade route, a frequent stop for outbound armadas. Colonized by Portugal in the 1460s, it was used for salt production and growing cotton, as well as an outbound stop for the trans-Atlantic slave trade. This is another important part of the trade route I think could use something to make it worth settling.

Spoiler Socotra :

Socotra was never formally taken over by Portugal, but was used as an anchorage, meeting point, and base for further raids into the Red Sea. Giving it an incense or dye resource would provide some incentive for the player to settle there, since it offers such a large amount of Indian Ocean trade route control.

Generally these single tile islands are worthless, but Portugal didn't really do "colonization" in the time period the Indian Ocean trade route UHV goal is active for. They created chains of bases and/or trading posts along the Atlantic, Indian, and Pacific Ocean coasts, frequently small islands like Arguin, Cape Verde, Sao Tome, Mozambique (the island not the country), Macau, and even on occasion Socotra. I think making them worth settling would be interesting for Portugal, considering how they assist its unique UHV. A bunch of low population resource extraction islands or trading posts fit the civ's style perfectly.

 

[banzay13]

Also, sending GM to Yuan Empire (aka Marko Polo) can help a lot with research

 

[AOS9001]

It's something I've considered, but the great engineer for the trading company is still my number 1 great person strategy.

Speaking of strategies, I've been trying my Sebastiao Stratagem again. The nerfs to the Moors have made it much less viable, they don't hold out as long as they used to so you don't have time to make an army to capture Morocco before Marakesh starts spamming hill defense II crossbows after losing Cordoba. Kissonde is looking like it truly will be the new Sofala of 1.18. The question is, do you wait until you're in the Renaissance for those free buildings, or rush it as soon as you have Compass? I haven't decided yet.