RFC Europe: Small bugs/fixes

[AbsintheRed]

Actually I'm not that sure about heavy horse archers, it was some brainstorming only
Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK they weren't that common in Europe

 

[steerpike_swe]

Well I guess it depends on the definition of "heavy horse archer". If heavy means that they wore armour then I am pretty sure that examples could be found from Byzantium, Novgorod, Russia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Crimea..

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not really sure either. But a horse archer with armour could still go to the light cavalry unit category?
Also, we would need them to be somewhat late, not much before Knights. Horse archers and "heavy" horse archers weren't somewhat too close for that?

 

[steerpike_swe]

I think so yes. They are not wearing a heavy full plate armour...

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think so yes. They are not wearing a heavy full plate armour...

Cool. I'm not against it all, it was my idea after all
Anyway, we would need a better name for them. Adding Heavy there is a bit confusing, since the 2 cavalry unit category we have is Light and Heavy Cavalry.
Also, what do you think, which tech would be appropriate for "Heavy" Horse Archers and which for Mounted Sergeants?

 

[amrod]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK they weren't that common in Europe

I'm bad at history, but I think when the tribes like the Huns and later Hungarians invaded Europe with horse archers (and laater the Mongols) they were quite the shock (sagittae hungarorum etcetera).

Actually, that's one thing missing, the early (btw 895-955) adventures of Hungarians, in which they reached the Atlantic. Of course, the time pace in this mod doesn't allow to represent it properly, though if the AI plays them, they could get a little incentive to send a few horse archers west. (Though the horse archers would mostly be good only for pillaging.)

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm bad at history, but I think when the tribes like the Huns and later Hungarians invaded Europe with horse archers (and laater the Mongols) they were quite the shock (sagittae hungarorum etcetera).

Of course, horse archers are absolutely historic for early hungary, bulgaria, kiev, etc
I was speaking of "heavy" horse archers

 

[steerpike_swe]

I'm not really sure either. But a horse archer with armour could still go to the light cavalry unit category?
Also, we would need them to be somewhat late, not much before Knights. Horse archers and "heavy" horse archers weren't somewhat too close for that?

Cool. I'm not against it all, it was my idea after all
Anyway, we would need a better name for them. Adding Heavy there is a bit confusing, since the 2 cavalry unit category we have is Light and Heavy Cavalry.
Also, what do you think, which tech would be appropriate for "Heavy" Horse Archers and which for Mounted Sergeants?

Your are right about the naming, using "Heavy" in the name of a light unit would probably could cause confusion...

The way I see it the difference between the new "Heavy horse archer" and the previous horse archer is not so much about weight but more about technology/tactics/progress. To build the basic HA you need stirrups and a society with nothing else to do but guarding cattle, ride your horse and be bored enough to practice with your bow.... You do not even need iron or steel.

The HHA would be what those HA could become with a guy like Genghis in charge... and with access to iron & steel, chain mail and armour, horses bred for warfare, the riders trained, drilled & disciplined into full time soldiers, tactical deployment of units etc. They would not necessary be heavier - just more deadly.

I have no access to the game right now, but I agree that they should be available somewhere around Knights - or rather about the time of the Mongol invasions - I am sure that some people where inspired by the experience....

 

[amrod]

I have no access to the game right now, but I agree that they should be available somewhere around Knights - or rather about the time of the Mongol invasions - I am sure that some people where inspired by the experience....

What I wanted to say in my previous post is that I don't remember such units being used in Europe, though some ppl with more knowledge of history could check it out. Even people like Hungarians who came as horse archers, changed more to western style warfare in time (though their light cavalry traditions later resurfaced in the light hussar units - not so much the early ones, rather the 18th century hussars)

 

[amrod]

1) First two images:
It's the same unit. I have frozen animations.
I clicked on the arbalestier and its graphics changed btw these two.

2) Third image:
I'm not sure if this is normal. Crusade to aid Portugal, and it goes to Jerusalem? Or it's only the standard text? (I've never actually seen what a defensive crusade does, should probably use the cheat, I'm getting curious)

3) What does this mean:
Deal canceled: Peace Treaty (10 turns) to the Pope for Peace Treaty (10 turns).
I get it in several games; and of course more than 10turns after contacting pope, and there's no such thing as a peace or war with him anyway...

4) Can it be that one reason for AI's collapse is that it chooses civics without regard to their stability effects? I'll have to do more exploration, just noticed they have an interesting choice of civics...

 

[merijn_v1]

2) Third image:
I'm not sure if this is normal. Crusade to aid Portugal, and it goes to Jerusalem? Or it's only the standard text? (I've never actually seen what a defensive crusade does, should probably use the cheat, I'm getting curious)

I think those are 2 different crusades. The first one is a defensive crusade. The second one is a normal crusade. It's just coincident that those happen short after eachother.

 

[steerpike_swe]

What I wanted to say in my previous post is that I don't remember such units being used in Europe, though some ppl with more knowledge of history could check it out. Even people like Hungarians who came as horse archers, changed more to western style warfare in time (though their light cavalry traditions later resurfaced in the light hussar units - not so much the early ones, rather the 18th century hussars)

This is certainly a valid point - we might have been somewhat carried away with our brainstorming...

I just re-read Keegan´s "The history of warfare" + have spent quite some time with wikipedia. According to Keegan light cavalry units and tactics were largely absent from the (western) European way of warfare during the middle ages. Indeed this resurfaced only later with the 18th century hussars.

 

[rrosen]

SVN 791: Playing as Bulgaria, I get continous messages about mercenaries that are upset for not getting payed and abandoning my cause, despite there being money in the coffers (albeit running a deficit). My mercenaries stay though, so it's probably just something with the message.

 

[3Miro]

SVN 791: Playing as Bulgaria, I get continous messages about mercenaries that are upset for not getting payed and abandoning my cause, despite there being money in the coffers (albeit running a deficit). My mercenaries stay though, so it's probably just something with the message.

Can you post a savegame?

Never mind: I had the text switched for "Mercs are leaving you because you have no cash" and "New Mercs are available for hire".

 

[AbsintheRed]

Can you post a savegame?

Never mind: I had the text switched for "Mercs are leaving you because you have no cash" and "New Mercs are available for hire".

Actually that's not the cause of the messages
I fixed this yesterday night (switched the texts), and still got the python errors during my playtest today
Will upload a few pics in a minute

 

[AbsintheRed]

This first screenshot is connected to mercenary desertation, and comes up only when your gold goes negative
Note that strangly the slider doesn't count, merc can even desert you if you have 90% of your gold on research
This may be an issue later when mercenaries desert

This second screen comes up on every turn
Maybe the merc pool got full? But I'm not totally sure on this...

 

[3Miro]

The text fix did not show on my SVN, did you forget to upload perhaps? I uploaded the text fix anyway, so it should be good now.

The first screenshot that you show gives a bug that I now fixed. I just uploaded the fix.

I cannot find the second bug. The lines in your Mercenary.py file are a bit off from mine, did you add couple of new units? The place that seems the candidate for the bug is where I ask for the number of potential provinces for the merc. All provinces need to be listed in [] brackets or via the tRegions* variables. If you have only one province, you need to list it in brackets [iP_Scotland] not iP_Scotland. This is just a guess, the problem can be somewhere else. I tested several turns with Bulgaria and I had mercs available to help me fight mercs hired by the Byz, I got no errors (after the fix for the first error).

 

[AbsintheRed]

The text fix did not show on my SVN, did you forget to upload perhaps? I uploaded the text fix anyway, so it should be good now.

Yeah, saw you also fixed it
I didn't upload it, I only had some smaller changes yet
Anyway, will do it an hour

The first screenshot that you show gives a bug that I now fixed. I just uploaded the fix.

Cool

I cannot find the second bug. The lines in your Mercenary.py file are a bit off from mine, did you add couple of new units? The place that seems the candidate for the bug is where I ask for the number of potential provinces for the merc. All provinces need to be listed in [] brackets or via the tRegions* variables. If you have only one province, you need to list it in brackets [iP_Scotland] not iP_Scotland. This is just a guess, the problem can be somewhere else. I tested several turns with Bulgaria and I had mercs available to help me fight mercs hired by the Byz, I got no errors (after the fix for the first error).

Yes, in my version I have 2 extra lines (I'm on svn 792 currently + my own changes)
Will merge it into your latest changes in 793, then upload it

EDIT: Ohh, I just see I have missed those brackets in one of the lines. Sry

 

[3Miro]

EDIT: Ohh, I just see I have missed those brackets in one of the lines. Sry

Another mystery solved.

I uploaded fixes for the bugs, I hope those don't interfere with your code.

On a related note, are you and merjvin aware of the array in StoredData that should be at least as long as the total number of Mercs? If you end up adding too many mercs, just increase the size of the array.

lMercsHiredBy in StoredData.py

 

[AbsintheRed]

Alright, tested again with the latest svn version (794), and no python errors
But currently mercenary deserting can happen even with a developed economy, even when you spend more then 1000 golds on research/spying/culture
For example, you have your science slider at 100%, with -10 gold/turn. If you spent all your gold during the turn, but forgot to lower the slider to 90%, one of your mercenaries leaves.

Was it intended this way?
IMO it's not perfect, it only adds another thing to micromanagement. Because it's easily avoidable, but the player have to check the slider on the end of every turn.
Firaxis directly avoided this by auto-changing the science slider (if your gold would have gone negative with your current science percentage)

On the other hand (putting gameplay reasons aside), if you really want to do it this way, we can put some reasons behind it:
If you don't have actual gold reserves, your mercenaries go and find someone else who has, who is seemingly more stable financially