Rfc++

[SadoMacho]

pacifism is OK for me (if the great generam thinhy is possible). I think relgious civic is handle, unless some one wants to add something else, on to the unity civic?

Is it possible that with org. religion we can only build missionaries of the state religion without the monstary, for other religions, you'll have to build the monsatery?

 

[Vishaing]

hmmmm, That should be as simple as adding an if statement to the 'missionaries without monastary' tag the civic has. I'll look into that to. Also, I'm putting the dynamic civics on hold for a little while because frankly I haven't had any luck finding what I need, and I figure a balanced civic system would be a better place to start than a whole new foundation for the civics system. Hopefully in the next couple of dayds I will PM TheLopez or Aussie_Lurker and try and get their oppinion on it, but I just moved back home for the holiday vacation thing, so I'm spending some time with my family and my posts have become sporadic at best.

However, I agree the religious civics seem pretty well done now, so I will update the first post.

Let's move on to Labor civics, which we might have to discuss alongside Social civics, as they are pretty related.

Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Slavery: (tech: Bronze Working, upkeep: Low)
+2 hammers per mine/quarry/town, May use population to rush production

Serfdom: (tech: Feudalism, Upkeep: Low)
+50% worker speed, +1 hammers per farm

Guilds: (tech: Guilds, upkeep Medium)
+2 hammers / commerce per specialist, -1 production per tile

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: High)
-50% number of cities maintenance, +1 specialist per city, -50% great person growth

Professional Labor: (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce

 

[SadoMacho]

Tribalism is more something for social civic, I would name it state of nature (Hobe named it like this).

Slavery : +1 food for planations, +1 , maybe 2, because slaves are unhappy, and 1 would give only 1 hammer

serfdom : away with the hammers for farms, +1 food from pastures (common use og grazinggrounds in ME europe), +1 from castle?

Guilds : OK

socialism : look at it social-iSM, this should be in the social colom. This is a system that wants to give people equal starting chances at the start of there lives be a strong governement, as opposed to liberalism that lets people work out there own lives, Laisez faire, Laizere passé. If you place socialism here, you have to put liberalism inhere to as they cannot be implemented at the same time. socialism is a social structure, not a way of labor organization.

Professional Labor : at first, I found this strange, but you seem to mean the 3rd sector (services and so) economy with this, so I like it.

To replace socialism, I would like to see 'Industrialism'. This is a civic ment for the industrial revolution so,

Industrialism : (tech : steam power, upkeep : medium)
+1 hammer for workshop, saw mill, +10% hammer, +1 unhealth, unlimited engineers

 

[Phallus]

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: High)
-50% number of cities maintenance, +1 specialist per city, -50% great person growth

Aside from Socialism not strictly being labour as Sadomacho points out, why the great person penalty? This isn't the cultural revolution we're describing here.

Industrialism sounds nice though.

 

[Aeon221]

Industrialism : (tech : steam power, upkeep : medium)
+1 hammer for workshop, saw mill, +10% hammer, +1 unhealth, unlimited engineers

Way overpowered.

How about

Organized Labour:

+1 free engineer all cities, +10% production, +1 happy, +1healthy, -1g towns/villages, +10% city maintenance

And change Professional Labour to Service Sector.

Guilds: (tech: Guilds, upkeep Medium)
+2 hammers / commerce per specialist, -1 production per tile

This + Angkor wonder = +4 production priests. Maybe not a good idea? I'll leave it to others to suggest an alternative.

serfdom : away with the hammers for farms, +1 food from pastures (common use og grazinggrounds in ME europe), +1 from castle?

I prefer Vishaing's serfdom model. It gives you the ability to build up local infrastructure, which none of the other civics seem to do.

Slavery: +1g and +1food Plantations, +2 unhappy, +10% commerce, -25% city maintenance, pop rush.

 

[SadoMacho]

Org. Labour : OK, but +1 isn't good. This is the industrial revolution, and labourers won't that well off in those day, only the church could keep them from not revolting and going communist.

Service Sector : nice name.

serfdom: we intend to get closed economy in the economy civics whitch would give +1 hammer on farms, as this represents the feudal fiefdom and the Roman villas system of small agreculture units with every thing on it to survive, so also a blacksmith on the farm.

guilds : so 1 civ would get a lot of production extra, I don't mind. I like the guilds idea very much. And I thing a lot of the wonders should get new effects anyway, especially Ankor Wat.
Other suggestions are welcome ofcourse, this has to be something like the Hanze, Venice, Genua,... a medievel trading empire, just before mercantilism and the start of colonialism.

slavery : why +10% commerce and -25% city maintenance? I would give the worker bonus here and not to serfdom, as you can whip slaves at work faster.

so, some new ideas :

Spoiler :

slavery : (tech bronze working, upkeep : middle)
+1gold and +1 food on planations, +2 unhappy, pop. rush, +50% worker speed

serfdom (tech feudalism, upkeep : low)
+1 food from pastures, +1 happy from castle, +25% worker speed, I would add something to monastaries, as they were the centre of culture and science in those days, maybe +1 science/culture?

Guilds (tech guilds, upkeep : medium)
engineer +1hammer, merchant +1gold, scientist +1science, artist +2culture, (specialist are in guilds, so more productive)
Town, village +1gold (cities had to buy city rights from feudal lord, so extra gold from there)
+1 happy from walls (cities had to buy this right, and once in the city walls, serves were free)

Industrialism (or Org. Labor) (tech : steam power upkeep : low/medium?)
+1 free engineer all cities, +10% production, +1 unhealthy, -1g towns/villages, +10% city maintenance

Service Sector (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce

 

[SadoMacho]

No more replies, so everybody agrees or I'am talking to myself.

on to social:

the current is :
Barbarism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+1 free specialist, +3 happiness in 5 largest cities.

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.&#8221

Camaraderie: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities

Nationhood: (tech: Nationalism, upkeep: High) (This civic in my eye represents all ideologies that put the state before individual ambitions)
May Draft 2 Units per turn, +2 happiness from barracks, Courthouse.

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 in 5 largest cities.


Socialism should be added, and I am not to fond on nationhood and Camaraderie.

Ideas? Pease don't let me talk to myself.

 

[Vishaing]

Sorry about the lack of talkativeness.

I like your Labor ideas,
Serfdom will have something giving a bonus to monastaries, probably +1 culture. As for guilds, I'm not sure if it is possible to give bonuses to specific specialists, it would be nice if it were. If it is or I can rig it up I plan to give them sepcific bonuses, however If I cannot I think we might need a medly, perhaps 1 hammer, but hammers are extremely valuable, so I think maybe +1 commerce and culture, which can make sense on its own as the guilds primarily existed as a way of ensuring higher pay for workers by gaining monopolies on certain services.
I think Industrialism is a better name, as Organized Labour seems far broader and includes many things that are represented by other civics. I agree about Service Sector however, that is a nice name.

on to social.

I want Nationhood in. Nationalism is partly what let the U.S. win in the World Wars, and a lack of Nationalism is what largely what lost us the Vietnam and Korean wars. It should be represented, in my oppinion, I am open to any suggestions however. (plus it is a civic I really like using )

However, I agree about camaraderie, I never really liked it, so I would replace Camaraderie with Socialism.
Any ideas for effects?

 

[SadoMacho]

socialism (tech : communism, upkeep : high)
+20% science, +50% , +1 , +1 health, +50% ww

it is a social system that allows people to get higher education, and gives the working class a nice live.

I would place 'nationhood' in the Unionization civic to replace 'Sovereign Nations'. Nationhood symbolises that the people of a civ have a feeling of being 1 nation.
Nationhood is to be combined with liberalism (as you tell youself, because the USA had it) but also with socialism (The USSR had it during the great Motherland War = WWII). Nationhood is what caused the WWs in the first place, as it lead to a vendeta between France and Germany. We could replace it with a social structure for civs like china with a bureaucratic social order.

I would olso rename barbarism to Tribalism, as the most primitive social structure was the tribe, that's why I wanted to change tribalism in the labor civic. Tribalism in labor could be state of nature.

Caste system : take away the happiness for large cities. -50% (great people born outside the correct caste of there speciality can't become great people), +2 free spec.

Liberalism : not sure on the +100% culture, +50% would be more than enough for the coca cola effect of the USA.

 

[Phallus]

socialism (tech : communism, upkeep : high)
+20% science, +50% , +1 , +1 health, +50% ww

Seems a little overpowered to me. I'd remove the Great People bonus and see how things are with increased research and extra health + happiness.

Tribalism in labor could be state of nature.

For the name I'd suggest 'Sustenance' over 'State of Nature'. Either make sense as communities that have to focus everything on survival rarely have the time and resources to achieve anything spectacular, but Sustenance is probably more familiar as a general term.

Caste system : take away the happiness for large cities. -50% (great people born outside the correct caste of there speciality can't become great people), +2 free spec.

This sounds very good.

 

[fishhead]

Seems a little overpowered to me. I'd remove the Great People bonus and see how things are with increased research and extra health + happiness.

or perhaps add -x%

 

[Vishaing]

Names of starting civics have been changed.

So, we currently have:

Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+2 free specialist, -50% great person births

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+20% science, +1 happy, +1 health, +50% ww
(I agree about removing the +gp to balance it)

UNKNOWN

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 unhappy (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 happy in 5 largest cities.

 

[SadoMacho]

unknown :

We could use bureaucracy, in china this was the basis for social structure. I think confusianism had something to do with this, but I don't know who.
The Roman Empire had a bureaucratic system when it's tribal system moved to the background. Bureaucracy is a system wherein civil servants have great power according to there ranks. In Rome, you had the consuls, the procinsuls, the tribunes,...

Bureaucracy (tech : code of law, upkeep middle)
courthouse : +1 happiness / culture
granary +1 happiness (state keeps grain to support people, this was also an Inca way, place the granary were people can see it and where its save, they will be happier)
academy +1 happiness (people get an education here)
maybe +5% gold for markets and grocer as more civil servants, means more tax collection (less black market)????

on socialism :
this is an high upkeep civic, that's why I would like to see the +50% as it will be hard to maintane. But if it is really overpowered we could remove it. Or maybe just +25%?
Also, if liberalism is getting the +100% culture, socialism should get something to compete, socialism is not only the soviet model (that's socialism with state property), it is also very common in europe (socialism and free market).

 

[Vishaing]

Beaurocracy sounds like a good addition. PLus it was in the vanilla civics (albeit in a different category) so it is good to put it somewhere.

About Socialism, I'm not sure about other models, I know little about socialism and its affects, however my Roommate is Canadian, and most of his hatred of socialism is from it discouraging greatness by vastly raising the taxes on the successful people, to pay for and support the unsuccessful people. Again, this might only be the Canadian model. However, (going to Wikipedia despite Aeon's hatred of it) Socialism is described as a system where the economy is tailored to support the working class majority, and it does this by stripping power from the wealthy minority, which in civ terms would be the great people.
Hence why I don't want to give them a +gp bonus, I would prefer to up the happiness/health bonus first.

Also, currently Caste System and Beaurocracy have the same prerequisite tech, we should fix that.

so currently:
Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+2 free specialist, -50% great person births

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+20% science, +1 happy, +1 health, +50% ww

Bureaucracy (tech : Code of Laws, upkeep Medium)
+1 happiness / culture with courthouse, +1 happiness with Granary, +1 happiness with Academy (that's a lot of happiness, will really help in the early game period, but I feel there should be another bonus and some penalty. I think the +5% commerce with grocer and market might be a good bonus, but I can't think of a good malus.

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 unhappy (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 happy in 5 largest cities.

 

[SadoMacho]

do not agree with socialism without bonus, because great people are not the rich, but those who exel in there field of expertise. Merchants are maybe the exception with socialism.

But I'm willing to let it go. (I am a socialist, so I would like it to be a very good civic )

As you want to keep the upkeep medium, I wouldn't change to much to it, socialism in the USSR wasn't all that great, as long as socialic states with free market can compete with Liberal states.

Bureaucracy : tech : writting??? I want it in the early games, not with civil service like now, as China and Rome had a large bureaucracy, and Egypt to was known for there scribes that counted the field to collect taxes (they even had a god for that Thot). I don't like the current effects of the civic now, it was just some ideas a typed down quickly. But governementbuilding, like courthouse and granary should be affected.
A malus could be the upkeep, as a lot of bureaucrates cost a lot of money, maybe even high upkeep? Take away the happines from courthouse, and give it a +5% commerce bonus (not for market and grocer). Maybe some one has a good idea???

And what's up with the +100% culture for liberalism? I don't get this. The state with liberalism doesn't support art, a state doesn't care much about that with liberalism. Socialism (communist) on the other hand usses art (socalled 'social realism') and sport as propaganda "to show the glory of the worker paradise" as Stalin would say. Just give it +50% and I can live with it. There upkeep is low, so they can spend money to culture if they want to, because they have the freedom to do so, if they like it.

 

[Zetetic Apparat]

Socialist Realism isn't a factor of socialism, per se, it's a product of what was termed Marxist-Leninism (which had debatably little to do with the good or bad points of either's political ideology but was partially related to their analytically approaches at any rate) in the old Warsaw Bloc during Stalin's days and then only really survived in East Germany (where it was parodied to absurdity anyway ; e.g. Irmtraud Morgner). In the USSR at least, after Khrushchev's denouncement of Stalin, then the majority of the state-funded art (that is, all of it) while often patriotic etc. did not conform to Marxist philosophical viewpoints (determinism, dialectical approach etc.) simply because, I would argue, that there are more interesting ways of looking at the world.

The Soviet film adaptation of Solaris (and I suppose Lem's original novel) is one obvious example of this and, coincidentally, a film so tedious and overproduced that it also demonstrates how the Soviet system encouraged 'arty' and less populist films but those certainly didn't spread a huge amount of Soviet culture to the wider world. Worth noting that the novels and plays that came out of the Bloc and were picked up in the West are those like Solzhenitsyn and if anything those continued to damage Soviet culture (from cIV mechanics point of view) long after they were really relevant to how the Union operated.

Great people are certainly not the 'wealthy minority'. The wealthy minority in most established regimes, e.g. Russia in 1917, tends to be so inbred that their brains have been replaced by teeth. However communistic and socialist do tend to decrease individual creativity by their very nature but I would say make up for this by rather contrived pushes in specific fields, for example, Soviet and Eastern Bloc chess players. I'm not sure how you should model this but it certain shouldn't be an overall decrease in GP ; perhaps a weighting towards scientists and engineers rather than prophets and artists.

(P.S. 'True'* Socialism aims to equalise wealth not only because wealth distribution is unfair from the point of view that the most capable are not always the most rewarded (and they aren't) but also on the basis that unequal wealth distribution fundamentally has no moral value. There are obvious practical problems which aren't worth discussing.)

*Yeah, nasty word, sorry.

 

[SadoMacho]

You look at socialism as the soviet model most of the time, as do many people. You must olso take in regarde the social democratic states of North and West Europe, where the arts get more financial support from goverment than in traditional Liberal Capitalist states. I repeat, I can live with +50% culture, not with the overwelming 100%, as the only way the culture of the USA is spread over the world is because there the only superpower of the age, much like Rome was. Maybe we could give the same +100% to the Roman political system? That would be silly too, they got so much culture from buildings.


On : You have the brain drain from West Europe to USA, taking away all high educated people with a lot of talent to the USA (ex. Hawking, he's british, and after an education and prove of his talent, came to America, Einstein,...)
Also, if we look at the soviet space program. This was a based on the talent of a farmer's son who would have been a farmer (and not a rocketscientist) if there was no socialism in Russia. He would be a . Russia had almost no german WWII technology and non of the german scientist.
The American space program was a joke, even though they had a lot of Germany techoogy, and only when Von Brauns talent was used, the Space program got somewhere, and Von Braun got somewhere thanks to 'National Zocialismus' (=NAZI) or national socialism (not that I approve of this ideology and that socialism was mainly socialism in name, but the educationsystem was socialist).
Also the soviets developed the basis for nuclear fussion (tokamak reactor), and may more high tech ideas. Bad leadership and no money because of that leadership is what holds Russia down, and that's why we don't type in Russian now.
What does America place to that, what did the USA produce?
Bill Gates a great merchant
PT Barnum a great merchant
are there more?? (great generals not included of course)

But I am willing to live with the removal of +50% , I just needed to say this, and by making bold statements, I try to get more people in the discussion on the civic, more people could result in great ideas and a fantastic civc system (at least I hope, and if Rhye is willing to use it? Rhye???)

 

[Zetetic Apparat]

You look at socialism as the soviet model most of the time, as do many people.

I was considering truly planned economies rather than the interventionist and high-tax/spend governments of Europe. I don't think that there's ever been a truly free-market country (with every European country and USA country that tried it for any length of time eventually undergoing an economic crash, usually due to overspeculation, and then reverting to interventionism). There's certainly the problem that all Civs in cIV are centrally planned from the start, us being the planners! So the economic civic always jars with me ; I thought that 'state property' was the right direction to go in as far as semantics are concerned in the game. ('Free market' should really force you to abandon the ability to choose between different city improvements if it meant what it said. Just as Representation and Universal Suffrage should make approval more important.)

I'd also say that Nazi Germany was socialist, in the sense of central planning, in that fascism isn't too far off socialism but perhaps approached from a different direction and with very different aims ; fascism being the absorption of the state by corporations (at least in the original Italian form) and socialism being the joining of industry with the government. Certainly very similar in execution. If anything the Nazi Revolution was more socialist than fascist in the manner it came to full power. Both fascism and socialism tend to involve themselves as fully as possible with the individual ; even the 'social democracies' of Scandinavia pushed eugenics for scarily long periods of time and forced sterilisation upon the mentally disabled (I'm thinking of Sweden in particular). I'd argue that such a state isn't a democracy, personally, in the modern sense of a system that obeys majority will while respecting the rights of every individual.

P.S. Hawking still lives in the UK and is a Prof. at Oxford. The accent isn't something he picked up by living in the states.

P.P.S. I think perhaps rather than economic civics per se, just 'property' should be considered. Keep 'state property' and replace 'free market' with something corporation related. (There's also a massive problem with separation of labour and economy in my mind.) The separation of 'environmentalism' and 'state property' also makes no sense ; the only way environmentalism can be brought about is either by massive intervention (socialism) or maybe (I don't believe so ; silly libertarians ) massive responsibility (e.g. long-term fishing/farming rights)

 

[REDY]

Its very hard to find some system which was truly libertarian. Was New Deal libertarian?

 

[REDY]

Socialism: +20% science - its joke, isnt it?