Rfc++

[Zetetic Apparat]

Its very hard to find some system which was truly libertarian. Was New Deal libertarian?

No, the New Deal was one of those attempts to clean up after experiments with a more free market had failed. It included heavy subsides for farming (including large force hiring progs.) and reopening of banks only under heavy observation from the state. Roosevelt and those actually involved with implementing the plan were accused of being communists.

However, he did avoid massive nationalisation (indicating more of a 'capitalism reform' approach rather than true central planning ; it was an emergency stopgap really). It's far from certain what the actual aims of FDR were but I think it's not utterly wrong, that at least under the first 'deal' (1933-1935) that the USA was in many ways a socialist country.

 

[Aeon221]

What does America place to that, what did the USA produce?
Bill Gates a great merchant
PT Barnum a great merchant
are there more?? (great generals not included of course)

I agree with most of what you said, until here. This is just a goofy claim, and I'm not going to waste our time with more of this hyperbolic silliness.

The +20% science is a good balance to the +100% culture. I'd personally opt for the science, as it is a huge advantage.

with every European country and USA country that tried it for any length of time eventually undergoing an economic crash, usually due to overspeculation, and then reverting to interventionism

The Great Depression (which is what I assume you are referring to) had more to do with failed implementation of monetary policy (severe reduction of M2, to be precise) by various nations than it did with command economies.

The collapse of the Soviets had more to do with glasnost and perestroika than any economic policy. Indeed, the shock policy of Yeltsin (pushed by that bastion of poor economic policy, the IMF) was a major part of the collapse of the post-Soviet Russian economy in the 90s (by almost all measures, it was worse than the Great Depression was), and redonculous energy profits are leading to a return of the Soviet model under Putin as a result of the seeming failure of capitalism to outdo the Soviet model in Russia.

If there is a civic which is intended to represent command economies, it should increase city maintenance greatly (100% would not be out of the question), but similarly boost production and science.

 

[SadoMacho]

It seems time to start the economic civic discussion. Not?

Aeon, are you saying that you want to see a civic like state property (= planned economy as I like to rename it) with high city maintenance and a great boost on science and production?

 

[Vishaing]

Sorry it took me so long to post this, I had responded to SadoMacho before Zetetic Apparat busted onto the scene but the internet ate my post.

By the way Zetetic, thanks for joining the discussion, always nice to have more people for me to shoot ideas at.

Now, to sum up my post, most of what I was going to say about my views on Socialism was pretty well, if not better than, articulated my Mr. Apparat. So I'm moving on.

My judgements for civics were to lower the +culture to 50% and raise the +science to 25%. I think that should be a good balancer. Also, I feel that like Aeon said culture is far less important than science, so those two are pretty well balanced.

Now, on to economics;
(I have changed State Property to Planned Economy. It seems appropriate.)

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
Not sure about this one, Ideas?

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade.

Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Medium)
+2 trade routes, +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

Planned Economy: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 happiness with forest, +2 healthiness per city.

 

[Phallus]

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade.

There's still no incentive to adopt Mercantilism. Is it possible to increase the number of tiles a city can work through a civic?

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 happiness with forest, +2 healthiness per city.

It is ludicrous to categorise Environmentalism as some sort of rival system to the other economies. I'd suggest an alternative but most seem to be covered under these fairly broad terms.

 

[SadoMacho]

Mercantilism : unlimited merchants or 1 free merchant in every city?

planned economy : +1 unhealty, maybe even +2, as the USSR and communist China aren't known for there ecologist aproche.
Maybe something with collective farms? +1 food when a farm allready has 5 food or so?
no +1 hammer on mines (I asked Rhye to give mines +1 hammer with steam power, and common mining wouldn't give more hammers)

clossed economy: +1 hammer on farms (domminion concept of the farm). This is the economy of feudal Europe (with sefdom and vassalage) and of the Roman empire (with slavery and olichargy/Hereditary Rule), the Domus I think it was called, a villa of some sort of lord, with farmland nearby and everything to sustain this small unit.

free market : low upkeep and +1 trade route?

Environmentalism : it is a rival system to the other economies, this is the system of the green parties in Europe. But is hasn't been acomplished in real live, so this is a future way of economy, so I would like to see this replaced too. (I don't expect some state one day will have a Environmentalist economy, so to hell with it.)

How about war economy:
During the world wars the economy was radicaly changed, so an economy could support long wars in the modern time.

War Economy (tech assembly lines upkeep high)
+50% mil. production (or maybe food to produce mil. units? no growt in population to simulate the "lost generation" of a long time war), -50% WW,
+2XP, -1 trade route (convoy and submarine war from WWI and II)
+2 happiness from barracks and draft (you'll like this one, wouldn't you Vishaing)
As tech, we could take fascism to, but that's post WWI and there was a war economy too during WWI.
It has a lot of bonuses, but I would give it a lot because this is only good during wartime. In peace time, you are much better with free market or socialism, so you'll need a revoltution and anarchy, that's the malus.

 

[Phallus]

The war economy idea sounds interesting. It would be great to compromise other areas for extra production and happiness during prolongued conflicts.

 

[McA123]

I don't think barrackses should give happiness under War Economy... During the Vietnam War, say, the people were anything but happy from barrackses and things like that. How about +50% production for military improvements, along with the bonus for units.

 

[Phallus]

Well something should represent "wartime spirit" and the surprising nostalgia British civilians (for example) felt for the days of rationing and gas masks. I know wartime Britain hardly compares to a ravaged nation where the war is on your doorstep, but that isn't the nature of a 'War Economy', I suppose.

 

[SadoMacho]

War economy is a simulation of WWI and WWII situation. The Vietnam war was a criminal act of the USA like the invasion of Iraq. The charter of the UN (signed by the USA) states that no nation may intervain in the governement of on other (even the most terrible one) unless there is a resolution of the UN giving the right to do so. So soldiers die in a criminal war the solves nothing and is illegal. No wonder so many people opposed and still oppose these wars.

 

[Vishaing]

The one thing I don't like about war economy is the idea of a civic to represent it. I miss civ 3's 'mobilization' right now. Frankly I wouldn't object to a civic to represent it in theory, but I have a feeling that the AI would not understand it and would use the civic even in peaceful times, and not realize what it was doing.

So I think we need to figure out something else.

currently, I am looking at:

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
+1 hammer from farm

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
+1 free merchant, no Foreign Trade.

Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Low)
+1 trade routes, +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

Planned Economy: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 happiness with forest, +2 healthiness per city.

Now, to discussion. I'm not to keen on Environmentalism as a civic myself, but as I said replacing it with War Economy doesn't set with me either.

As for Free Market, I really like giving it the foreign trade bonus, as it makes it a more diplomat's civic than warmonger's. It just seems like a cool dynamic, but perhaps +2 trade routes is too much, so I did shift it down a bit.

Planned Economy I really se as the shift of commerce to production to help build a massive juggernaut production base of united workers. I'm unsure, what is your rationale for the food bonus instead of hammers?

I dislike the idea of Mercantillism giving unlimeted merchants because this never seems to do anything for me. so lets go with 1 free merchant.

Closed economy I had no ideas for and therefore cannot really argue with what you suggest .

 

[SadoMacho]

Planned economy: it has collective farms, that should give some extra food (if your state has capable leaders)

Mercantilism : OK, in my original ideas, I had a vision that for every specialist type, there was a civic that allows unlimited spec. That's why, but 1 free merchant is OK.

 

[GoodGame]

I think the War Economy idea is valid. Using it over say Free Market is reasonable in that severe rationing is probable during a War Economy period. I'd tone down the happiness. No negation of draft unhappiness, but +1 happiness for Drydock (are they in RoC?) and Barracks. And add a +1 happiness per military unit per city----but up to a limit (say +2?). (So no one's really happy to be drafted, but you could draft and beat the draft unhappiness by not moving the unit).

Possibly tone the military unit production to under 50%.
Maybe a general economy tone down to represent rationing? One less happinness luxury per city? One less commerce per plot that has 3 or more?

And no negation of war weariness (to not confuse it with Police state). I think that would distinguish it well from Herditary Rule, Police State, and Nationhood, while still representing increased mobilization level. <Realistically the Vietnam era protests were war weariness---there is no Just War concept in CIV 4>



On AI usage---perhaps there's a way to test if the AI is actively 'warmongering' or not, to determine if it resorts to this civic. I think it'd be a simple check of "Yes at war" and "Yes desparate to build new units". Also a 'facist' would definitely use it to build up for war even at peace. The only problem is if the AI then turns around and disbands them all (and the tech tree will probably be past Mercenaries for the AI to sell its units). Perhaps the AI could engage in some proxy war by gifting extreme excess units to allies?

The one thing I don't like about war economy is the idea of a civic to represent it. I miss civ 3's 'mobilization' right now. Frankly I wouldn't object to a civic to represent it in theory, but I have a feeling that the AI would not understand it and would use the civic even in peaceful times, and not realize what it was doing.

 

[Spearcatcher]

Dumb question I'm sure, but is it possible to play with this stuff in the Warlords version of the game? Or am I stuck with Vanilla only?
Thanks...

 

[TheAmerican]

Why not introduce another catagory ? Enviromental policy.

 

[Phallus]

Whatever happened to this project?

 

[SadoMacho]

I think Rhye isn't going to use a new civic system.

 

[Rhye]

I think Rhye isn't going to use a new civic system.

it's not my business. You should ask Vishiang

 

[Vishaing]

Yeah, this project has taken a bit of a back burner due to my inactivity, and I apologize for that. To make a long story as short as possible, not more than two weeks ago I had to completely rebuild my computer, and while the code was saved as I always had a back up of it on my external hard drive, installing the SDK and everything needed to run it was very tiring and painful (mostly because my laptop was very, how shall we say, 'jury rigged') and I have been putting off doing it again.

@Spearcatcher: not yet, but I'm hoping to start work on this again sometime soon, and the first thing I plan to do is update RFC++ to the newest build and create a Warlords version, so hopefully you will be able to soon. hopefully, however given my recent history with this mod I wouldn't hold your breath.

@TheAmerican: I would prefer to not add any full civic categories. I had originally intended the expansion civics to be sort of a thank you present to Rhye for making not just one but two great mods. I still intend to RFC++-ize the 6th civic column Rhye made, but that will be pushed back a little bit by the situation I described.

@SadoMacho: doesn't look like it, but i had never really intended any of parts of RFC++ to ever become core features of RFC, though it would have been pretty cool. That doesn't mean I'll stop making them.

Hopefully I can get myself back working on this again. First, I need to reinstall cIV. I'm hoping that the break I took will make me rusty with the game, and give me another chance to get back into it, because I will admit I had begun to lose interest. And school is really taking up a fair bit of my time.

Heres to hoping I play once more. If not, I am truly sorry for anyone I disappoint.
-Vishaing

 

[Vishaing]

That's Right, I'm back. And I almost have what could be a good reason for having been gone for so long.

You see, first, I redefined my entire life and am switching majors and universities. But you don't want my life story, so I'm just going to tell you about the mod.

RFC++ has enterred version 1.90-1.10!!!

I think.
Funny thing, I have the dll code from version 1.90 and I know I used that code, but I cannot seem to find the normal xml and python files from v1.90 so it is entirely possible this is really a version somewhere between 1.86 and 1.90

Now then. What took me so long to update? well, I was lazy to start with, and then some random part of the Air Forces Mod is apparently either incompatible, or I copied over wrong. However I have taken this as a hint, and am rebuilding the entirety of RFC++ from scratch (I can rebuild it, make it better, faster, stronger.), or as much of scratch as I can considering this is only really me mergin already made code.

This is why the version number for RFC++ is now a 1. number.

Reguardless, the download is up an works. Unfortunately this is built on the Vanilla v1.90 and not 1.92, which Rhye just uploaded, but it still works well, and I should have it updated for 1.92 soon.