Rifling a pain in the rear

[svv]

Lizzy is my favorite leader. Sisituil's recent strategy article will tell you why; she has the two best traits. I love running the hybrid economy, with a few specialized cities with specialists, and cottages spammed everywhere else.

I also used to think Lizzy had a great UU. Now, I'm starting to realize it's far more trouble than it's worth.

Let's say you're at liberalism and just got gunpowder (either from liberalism, or from research if you got to liberalism late or used it on something like printing press). To get rifling, you first need (1) guilds, (2) banking, and (3) replaceable parts before you can research (4) rifling. Now, those other three are all reasonably useful techs, but they're nothing that you can't wait for later until somebody else gets them and you can trade for them.

On the other hand, you could just go (1) chemistry (grenediers) and (2) steel (cannon). Now you've got a reasonably equivalent unit to the riflemen in the grenediers, plus (in my view) a much better offensive unit in the cannon. Plus, you can now build ironworks (which I love to build in my capital/gp farm to help farm great engineers).

The grenedier/cannon team is great. The grenediers defend and take on any riflemen you see, and the cannon do everything else. Throw in a few pikemen for mounted units.

It seems to me that going after rifling early is an awful strategy, even if you are the English. Am I seeing this wrong somehow?

 

[axident]

Lizzy is my favorite leader. Sisituil's recent strategy article will tell you why; she has the two best traits. I love running the hybrid economy, with a few specialized cities with specialists, and cottages spammed everywhere else.

I also used to think Lizzy had a great UU. Now, I'm starting to realize it's far more trouble than it's worth.

Let's say you're at liberalism and just got gunpowder (either from liberalism, or from research if you got to liberalism late or used it on something like printing press). To get rifling, you first need (1) guilds, (2) banking, and (3) replaceable parts before you can research (4) rifling. Now, those other three are all reasonably useful techs, but they're nothing that you can't wait for later until somebody else gets them and you can trade for them.

On the other hand, you could just go (1) chemistry (grenediers) and (2) steel (cannon). Now you've got a reasonably equivalent unit to the riflemen in the grenediers, plus (in my view) a much better offensive unit in the cannon. Plus, you can now build ironworks (which I love to build in my capital/gp farm to help farm great engineers).

The grenedier/cannon team is great. The grenediers defend and take on any riflemen you see, and the cannon do everything else. Throw in a few pikemen for mounted units.

It seems to me that going after rifling early is an awful strategy, even if you are the English. Am I seeing this wrong somehow?

The new Redcoats are weaker than the old ones by 2 strength and maybe some other stuff I am forgetting. Cossacks are weaker now too. Some UU reputations are out of date.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think Redcoats have become a little less attractive since they got nerfed in Warlords, which I think was unnecessary. Redcoats were an extremely strong unit, granted, but as you so clearly described, the tech path to get to them is torturous.

In most other games I follow the same path you do, emphasizing Grenadiers and Cannon over Riflemen. When I play as England, though, I still prioritize them--mainly because I prefer to upgrade my existing units with City Raider promotions to Redcoats for that additional boost. Plus I find if you bee-line to Rifling, the AI just doesn't have an effective counter, because it is following the same tech path and neglects the best counters to Rifles/Redcoats, i.e. Grens and Cannon.

Remember as well that after Guilds you can get Banking and that enables England's UB; the Stock Market, in turn, along with some of Guilds' Grocers, should boost your revenues enough to allow you to tick up the slider and research a little faster.

On a couple of slightly unrelated topics, I find it interesting that there isn't a UU based on Grenadiers. And I've thought for a long time that the American UU should come earlier--the Minute Man, based on either Musketmen or Riflemen.

 

[KMadCandy]

In most other games I follow the same path you do, emphasizing Grenadiers and Cannon over Riflemen. When I play as England, though, I still prioritize them--mainly because I prefer to upgrade my existing units with City Raider promotions to Redcoats for that additional boost.

i am a huge fan of upgrading old units to gunpowder units, to use the promos guns can't get. that's part of why i don't particularly like UUs based on musketmen...you have to build 'em from scratch. that being said, Churchill's fresh, not-upgraded-from-veteran redcoats are more fun than Lizzy's.

i like protective more than a lot of folks do. i'm a big fan of Drill4, and it's easier to get with Churchill than anybody else. drill4 archery geezers upgraded to redcoats are wicked heinous.

 

[svv]

I think the only times you could say the Americans had qualitatively dominant units would have been (1) before and after the Civil War, in their wars against Mexicans and Indians which allowed their expansion, and (2) in the very-recent modern era. I can't think of an appropriate civil-war era UU (and maybe their success against the Mexicans and Indians was more due to other factors), so I think a modern UU makes sense. However, the Navy Seal seems a bit useless to me. Maybe an improved version of Modern Armor or Mechanized Infantry.

 

[Bradlius]

I think the only times you could say the Americans had qualitatively dominant units would have been (1) before and after the Civil War, in their wars against Mexicans and Indians which allowed their expansion, and (2) in the very-recent modern era. I can't think of an appropriate civil-war era UU (and maybe their success against the Mexicans and Indians was more due to other factors), so I think a modern UU makes sense. However, the Navy Seal seems a bit useless to me. Maybe an improved version of Modern Armor or Mechanized Infantry.

That's if you insist that the UU be a military unit. What is really charactericstically American I think is the workers that built the infrastructure of this country, the Chinese coolies built the transcontinental railway or the Irish immigrants who dug the shipping canals and worked in the mills and factories and so on.
How about, discovering Emancipation unlocks the American UU, the Immigrant Laborer, a souped-up version of the Indian Fast Worker (which I really never understood?). Maybe they have the same stats as the Fast Worker, but they build for half price? I don't know, just a thought. I hate Navy Seals. I built one once. Never used it.

 

[Quagga]

I don't go after Rifling until I need it for building Infantry. By then I usually have some vassals that I assign to researching it. Hopefully one will be willing (Mansa or Gandhi) to trade it to me.

Minuteman suggestion: Musket with withdraw chance and ability to use enemy roads (i.e., Flanking+Commando, but not upgradeable).

 

[axident]

That's if you insist that the UU be a military unit. What is really charactericstically American I think is the workers that built the infrastructure of this country, the Chinese coolies built the transcontinental railway or the Irish immigrants who dug the shipping canals and worked in the mills and factories and so on.
How about, discovering Emancipation unlocks the American UU, the Immigrant Laborer, a souped-up version of the Indian Fast Worker (which I really never understood?). Maybe they have the same stats as the Fast Worker, but they build for half price? I don't know, just a thought. I hate Navy Seals. I built one once. Never used it.

How about a Slow Worker that does twice the work per turn, but only gets 1 move?

 

[nullspace]

It seems to me that going after rifling early is an awful strategy, even if you are the English. Am I seeing this wrong somehow?

Riflemen and Redcoats are draftable. You can draft a large number of your UU very quickly, especially if you use things like the Globe theater and the culture slider for happiness. Redcoats are a good unit to have a lot of because there is no strong counter against them in the renaissance era. And it's good to get them early because the first things that can stop them are infantry and machine guns.

 

[axident]

Riflemen and Redcoats are draftable. You can draft a large number of your UU very quickly, especially if you use things like the Globe theater and the culture slider for happiness. Redcoats are a good unit to have a lot of because there is no strong counter against them in the renaissance era. And it's good to get them early because the first things that can stop them are infantry and machine guns.

Personally, I just upgrade my CR III swordsmen/axemen into grenadiers and cut through enemy riflemen like butter. No need to draft and get the penalties associated with it.

 

[LuckyAC]

If you have already teched to rifling and are fighting people in the Renaissance era, it doesn't sounds like you have any problems. That's the problem with the janissary unit too - it's great for weak opponents on, say, Monarch, but chances are you won't get that far ahead on a difficulty or versus opponents where it matters. The great thing about grenadiers is they allow you to beat more technologically advanced opponents who are actually a threat to you. They can ALSO beat anything up to infantry and machine guns, they are cheaper, and they do better against both riflemen and other grenadiers. If you are getting attacked by stacks of cavalry, sure, that's where you need rifleman, but in general human vs AI should be extremely offensive for the human.

 

[Quagga]

If you are getting attacked by stacks of cavalry, sure, that's where you need rifleman, but in general human vs AI should be extremely offensive for the human.

Stacks of barrage cannons work wonders against stacks of cavalry. Knock 'em down a bit and then let the grenadiers take over. Rifles are unnecessary.

 

[Jorunkun]

Riflemen and Redcoats are draftable. You can draft a large number of your UU very quickly, especially if you use things like the Globe theater and the culture slider for happiness. Redcoats are a good unit to have a lot of because there is no strong counter against them in the renaissance era. And it's good to get them early because the first things that can stop them are infantry and machine guns.

In my book, this is the main point of Redcoats. They can be quickly drafted en masse, at the best pop/hammers ratio of all draftable units, and they are very versatile (you can't defend well with cannons).

Plus there's nothing wrong with beelining for cannons first and backfilling with Redcoats later.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

The reason I go after rifling is cavalry is so darn annoying and nothing in your list will have an easy time against them. You mention the unit that rock/scissors/papers riflemen but you dont mention the unit that riflemen trumps themselves.

The AI isnt very good at exploiting it but because I have exploited it against the AI I assure you if someone gets cavalry and their neighbor doesnt have calvary or riflemen then that is death. Specially if you start coining and upgrading a bunch of knights.

Its like one of the most one sided eras I can think of if someone falls behind on tech and is just a step behind. Cavalry are the unholy march of death if you are missing the tech for one of the two key units.

And btw contributing to the structural flaws in your plan is a stack of cannons gets murdered by cavalry post patch civ.

So anyway thats why I rush to one or the other. If the AI ever gets better about exploiting a cavalry advantage omitting riflemen could be very painful. I tuned into this once when catherine dumped a bunch of cossaks on my border.

 

[Vynd]

Let's say you're at liberalism and just got gunpowder (either from liberalism, or from research if you got to liberalism late or used it on something like printing press). To get rifling, you first need (1) guilds, (2) banking, and (3) replaceable parts before you can research (4) rifling.

If I'm planning an offensive war during this period then I like to go for Chemistry and Steel myself. However, I think you're making Rifling out to be a little harder to get than it really is.

If your goal is to get to Rifling quickly, then don't research Gunpowder. In fact, don't research Education or Liberalism either. Just go straight from Paper to Printing Press. If you get to Printing Press before anyone else you should be able to trade it for Guilds on one turn, and Banking the next. Ideally you will be in a position to trade it for Gunpowder as well. But getting Banking is what really matters, because then you can research Replaceable Parts, which you can assuredly turn around and trade for Gunpowder if you didn't get it before. Then you research Rifling.

There's a tendency to think that the best way through the middle of the tech tree is always through Education and Liberalism, but depending on your goals sometimes that's just a big detour.

 

[Quagga]

And btw contributing to the structural flaws in your plan is a stack of cannons gets murdered by cavalry post patch civ.

Cannons cannot defend against cavalry, but they can attack. A stack of rifles against a stack of cavalry is a 1-to-1 matchup: Each rifle can take on only one cavalry. A cannon, even though it may die, will hit seven cavalry at a time. It doesn't take long to so severely weaken a stack of cavalry that your leftover pikemen and macemen can clean it up.

 

[svv]

I find that pikemen are a pretty good defense against cavalry. In fact, a few pikemen in your SOD, the AI usually won't even try to attack with cavalry.

If cavalry are defending in the city, in a mixed group with other units, as has been said cannon are more than adequate. Further, I often find that the AI won't take advantage of adding a cavalry to a defensive stack - they usually send them hither and there, making them vulnerable to a pikeman if they are damaged, and two pikemen if they are not.

 

[Sisiutil]

If I'm planning an offensive war during this period then I like to go for Chemistry and Steel myself. However, I think you're making Rifling out to be a little harder to get than it really is.

If your goal is to get to Rifling quickly, then don't research Gunpowder. In fact, don't research Education or Liberalism either. Just go straight from Paper to Printing Press. If you get to Printing Press before anyone else you should be able to trade it for Guilds on one turn, and Banking the next. Ideally you will be in a position to trade it for Gunpowder as well. But getting Banking is what really matters, because then you can research Replaceable Parts, which you can assuredly turn around and trade for Gunpowder if you didn't get it before. Then you research Rifling.

There's a tendency to think that the best way through the middle of the tech tree is always through Education and Liberalism, but depending on your goals sometimes that's just a big detour.

An excellent point and a very intriguing tech strategy. I'll have to try that the next time I play as England.

Cannons cannot defend against cavalry, but they can attack. A stack of rifles against a stack of cavalry is a 1-to-1 matchup: Each rifle can take on only one cavalry. A cannon, even though it may die, will hit seven cavalry at a time. It doesn't take long to so severely weaken a stack of cavalry that your leftover pikemen and macemen can clean it up.

I find that pikemen are a pretty good defense against cavalry. In fact, a few pikemen in your SOD, the AI usually won't even try to attack with cavalry.

If cavalry are defending in the city, in a mixed group with other units, as has been said cannon are more than adequate. Further, I often find that the AI won't take advantage of adding a cavalry to a defensive stack - they usually send them hither and there, making them vulnerable to a pikeman if they are damaged, and two pikemen if they are not.

You both make good points, but one place where I feel the Riflemen/Redcoats have an edge is when it comes to pillaging Cavalry, which is a tactic we all know the AI loves to employ. Pikemen won't usually win 1-on-1 against Cavalry, nor will Cannon; using those units against large numbers of dispersed Cavalry can get pretty expensive. Rifles do the best job of protecting your economy from pillagers at that point.

So if I'm going after Rifling for that purpose, I may as well go whole hog. Especially if I'm playing as England, because once you've got them, Redcoats just rock.