Right mechanics, wrong civilization?

[Vermicious Knid]

So I was poking around tinkering with the XML the other day...trying to figure out why I wasn't having fun with the Kuriotates. The thought struck me that there are a LOT of interesting unique mechanics floating around...but they might not be attached to the right civs.

Example#1 The Kuriotates

lore: "Nomads and wanderers, the Kuriotates seach for a home throughout Erebus. They prefer small enclaves, shunning the complexity of urban centers. Luckily, their advanced technology allows flight through Airships, and their unique alliance with the Centaurs provides them superior mounted units."

The mechanic: They Kuriotates can only build a few cities, but they work a larger radius and can get HUGE. They can build an unlimited number of pop 1 settlements to exploit resources.

How this plays out: You end up with a small number of cities with huge populations, surrounded by enclaves (urban sprawl). You then build a number of settlements to procure resources for your densely-populated urban core.

So...yeah. Not really working out there.

Example#2 The Jotnar

Lore: "Jotnar are the giant kin, an assortment of races that is held together by a common ancestry and traditions. They live centered around small family groups called 'Steaddings' or 'Homestaeds', not seldom attracting some odd kin to their dwellings. Hill giants, Trolls, Fiery giants, Tritons of the sea .. even the mightiest of them - the Titans - might fall in under their banners once they unraveled the mystery of immortality. Tightly held together, slow to bear offspring and to come to action, their pure size make them a force to be considered."

The mechanic: Jotnar can build a virtually limitless number of cities, but they work a small area and are capped at size 8. You can't build any decent combat units, but you spawn Jot Citizens that can be upgraded to brutal combat monsters. Your spawn rate is determined by number of cities.

How this plays out: City spam. The more cities the better. You will usually find that your population dwarfs (both in size and number) neighboring empires. Once you get rolling it is all over for the opposition.

So...not really a lore win there either.


I might be crazy, but wouldn't it make sense to swap the two unique city mechanics here?

 

[Hawkwood]

Where did you get that lore for the Kuriotates? Because their entry in regular FfH says that they are a highly urbanized civilization with a few metropolises (spelling?) ruling a huge empire consisting mostly of small outposts with no civil population governing large areas of land, with them mostly retreating from the outposts to defend the closely packed urban core when they're at war.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Where did you get that lore for the Kuriotates? Because their entry in regular FfH says that they are a highly urbanized civilization with a few metropolises (spelling?) ruling a huge empire consisting mostly of small outposts with no civil population governing large areas of land, with them mostly retreating from the outposts to defend the closely packed urban core when they're at war.

http://kael.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Kuriotates

 

[solistus]

I don't know much of anything about lore, so I will focus on game mechanics.

I agree in terms of gameplay that both Kurio and Jotnar need tweaking. Jotnar aren't broken per se, but I think it needs to be much harder to city spam. I'm fine with city spam being desirable but it shouldn't be so easy to pull off.

Kurio are an interesting idea that's totally broken, IMO. First and foremost, the AI has no friggin' clue how to deal with cities/settlements rationally. It often stays under the city cap, builds settlements when it should be building cities, rarely/never promotes settlements to cities when appropriate, places settlements in locations that would be good for normal cities, doesn't really seem to understand the interaction between settlements with no culture production and the one-shot worldspell to give settlements nice fat borders... The list goes on. Human players, in contrast, can exploit the crap out of settlements... Giving them to the AI comes to mind, either to boost a vassal/ally or to get out of a war. It's generally more effort than it's worth to build that many of them, except for particularly juicy resources near your cities, so the exploit-based uses become more important than the 'official' purpose.

I like the idea I've heard floating around, to allow an unlimited number of cities but have a steep cost for each one (not sure how to teach the AI about this but it can't be worse than the status quo right?). I'd favour abolishing settlements altogether; they add too little to gameplay for the number of problems they create. A cool alternative would be to enable Kurio forts to gradually pop a single ring of culture. Forts already serve as trade route connectors, so enhancing their resource-claiming functionality makes more sense to me than the broken settlement mechanic that basically does the same thing.

It would be rather difficult to balance (especially in terms of map size), but a more radical option would be to limit Kurio to their capital and create a series of unique national wonders that would enhance the capital's tile range and other stats. So, as other empires expand out, the Kurio focus on producing an uber capital. A lot of people seem to really enjoy the 'one uber city' method of gameplay (myself included) and this would make the Kurio the perfect choice for that style of play. I haven't really thought this idea through and it would take a lot of planning to get it right... Just another possibility to ponder

 

[Valkrionn]

To be honest, I've been planning on copying the Fort Defender mechanic from Orbis... I won't allow settlements to produce anything, as the method used in Orbis is too similar to the Jotnar, but I think a third promotion for the fort defenders allowing a third tier of culture would work. Probably block settlements all together, and instead give them a special unit that can 'settle' forts?

 

[Vermicious Knid]

To be honest, I've been planning on copying the Fort Defender mechanic from Orbis... I won't allow settlements to produce anything, as the method used in Orbis is too similar to the Jotnar, but I think a third promotion for the fort defenders allowing a third tier of culture would work. Probably block settlements all together, and instead give them a special unit that can 'settle' forts?

That would be super-easy (the "settling" forts thing). Can do it all in XML with a spell.


Still leaves them with that massive urban core though...which really seems wonky. Has the lore changed on that from what is in the wiki?

 

[Hawkwood]

Kuriotate Civilopedia entry:

Spoiler :

The nucleus of the Kuriotates was formed in the harrowing years between the end of the Age of Ice and the dawn of the Age of Rebirth. Squabbling tribes, clans, warlords and embryonic city-states were gathered into a small nation led by the boy-king Cardith Lorda. It is in this background that we find the secret behind the Kuriotates' rather odd societal structure. All these diverse elements gathered together in a sheltered and bountiful land, and started to forge a state that could survive in a dangerous world. However, the mutual distrust between all the clans, families and dynasties Cardith Lorda brought together means that they will not suffer another to grow more powerful than they are. In effect, the lower levels of government in the core regions are marked by a form of democracy, watched over by a royal administration with complete control.

Thus, all expansion is conducted by the King, and by him alone, and all territory is royal territory. The army swears allegiance to the king alone, and all administrative functions flow from the state rather than a master-servant system. There is no feudal system among the Kuriotates. The powerful live in the cities, and compete for positions there. In the outlying areas, the powerful are only powerful by royal decree, and Cardith Lorda's careful machinations ensures that it stays that way. Thus arose the system of settlements.

The Kuriotates are a confederation of peoples and races, marked by a very powerful core region, vast areas more loosely connected to the core cities, and full freedom of asylum, even citizenship, for those who wish to move from other nations or the wilderness of uncivilized territory. The settlements, controlled solely by the central administration (i.e. Cardith Lorda's government) act as administrative centers, tying vast areas, often with their own highly advanced semi-autonomous indigenous populations, into the Kuriotate confederacy. The settlements provide facilities for transit, trade, administration and diplomacy in the affiliated regions, but never develop a very large population of pure Kuriotates. They are mostly populated by bureaucrats, merchants, a handful of soldiers and their families and the most promising born here quickly relocate to the central cities. A system of trade and friendship with their centre on the small Kuriotate settlements keeps the hodge-podge of allies, protectorates, semi-autonomies and client states happy and ensures that much-needed resources continue to flow to the core lands.

The vast areas with sparse human population that get locked within the Kuriotates' disproportionately large sphere of influence and cultural domination mean that they get in contact with many of the rarer species of Erebus. For many civilizations, that might prove problematic, even act as a source of conflict and destruction. For the Kuriotates, it is a boon, and a source of their strength.

For the Kuriotates don't much care who you as long as you have something meaningful to offer to the nation as a whole. The Kuriotates' particularly positive relationship to the non-human species of Erebus dates back to the very beginnings of the confederation, when a small group of Centaurs aided Cardith Lorda in his rise to power. Other creatures, attracted by the special power they detect in the boy king, have since flocked to the Kuriotate banner, escaping marginalization or even persecution in other parts of the world. The Centaurs, having risen to be a force to be reckoned with in Kuriotate political life, smooth their transition and integration into the society, putting their special skills to good use in the areas at which they excel, through innate ability or cultural conditioning.

The culture of the Kuriotates is such that the demi-humans are treated as, and indeed regarded as being, equal to the human majority, and judged by merit and benefit to the nation alone, although the fundamental differences between the races mean that some measure of distinction is necessary in order to allow the Kuriotate nation to run smoothly. However, again this may be a secret benefit.

This specialization and segregation has given rise to something akin to a Caste system, another reason the Kuriotates have such a stable central government. While the humans are the jack of all trades, each of the races have found their niche, dominating their own area. The Centaurs, the warrior caste, hold many high positions in the army, the Lamia wield great magical power, and command respect among the magi, and so on. Since all these subcultures owe allegiance to the king alone, they act, in their specialized roles, as an effective bulwark against the ambitions of human noblemen.

Those few dissidents who let their resentment at being bypassed be channeled into irrational hatred of demi-humans are held in check by strong personal trust in Cardith Lorda and an emphasis on the state religion, not to mention state superstition and traditions. Few Kuriotates dare cross or even question the will of the state, the will of the people of the confederation, and most importantly, the will of the divine Boy-King.

The Kuriotates hold loose sway over a massive sprawl of an empire, but the borders are porous, and when war threatens, they will often act as a turtle, retreating into the hard shell of their core lands until they can muster the forces to take back that which was lost. Thus, the Kuriotates through their openness to others, strong central authority and large but loose sphere of influence have a flexibility many of their opponents lack. Truly, they are one of the centers of enlightenment in the dark of Erebus.

EDIT: Just to clarify: IIRC the civilopedia entry has been that way since at least 0.33 (which was when I first downloaded FfH). So unless a proper lore post or civilopedia entry has been made after that I'm guessing the wiki is just someone trying to explain their mechanics (since IIRC airships was added purely for gameplay reasons, because the Kuriotates had problems with oceans (they had so save a city if they started landlocked and had to "sacrifice" one of their cities if the only strip of coast available to them was unfavorable), not because of any lore regarding advanced technology)

 

[Valkrionn]

The pedia entry for the civ makes it clear that while the majority of their empire's citizens live in small enclaves, they maintain a few massive metropolises.

Spoiler Pedia :

The Kuriotates are limited in the number of real cities that they can acquire, but those cities will have greater production due to a wider workable area.

The nucleus of the Kuriotates was formed in the harrowing years between the end of the Age of Ice and the dawn of the Age of Rebirth. Squabbling tribes, clans, warlords and embryonic city-states were gathered into a small nation led by the boy-king Cardith Lorda. It is in this background that we find the secret behind the Kuriotates' rather odd societal structure. All these diverse elements gathered together in a sheltered and bountiful land, and started to forge a state that could survive in a dangerous world. However, the mutual distrust between all the clans, families and dynasties Cardith Lorda brought together means that they will not suffer another to grow more powerful than they are. In effect, the lower levels of government in the core regions are marked by a form of democracy, watched over by a royal administration with complete control.

Thus, all expansion is conducted by the King, and by him alone, and all territory is royal territory. The army swears allegiance to the king alone, and all administrative functions flow from the state rather than a master-servant system. There is no feudal system among the Kuriotates. The powerful live in the cities, and compete for positions there. In the outlying areas, the powerful are only powerful by royal decree, and Cardith Lorda's careful machinations ensures that it stays that way. Thus arose the system of settlements.

The Kuriotates are a confederation of peoples and races, marked by a very powerful core region, vast areas more loosely connected to the core cities, and full freedom of asylum, even citizenship, for those who wish to move from other nations or the wilderness of uncivilized territory. The settlements, controlled solely by the central administration (i.e. Cardith Lorda's government) act as administrative centers, tying vast areas, often with their own highly advanced semi-autonomous indigenous populations, into the Kuriotate confederacy. The settlements provide facilities for transit, trade, administration and diplomacy in the affiliated regions, but never develop a very large population of pure Kuriotates. They are mostly populated by bureaucrats, merchants, a handful of soldiers and their families and the most promising born here quickly relocate to the central cities. A system of trade and friendship with their centre on the small Kuriotate settlements keeps the hodge-podge of allies, protectorates, semi-autonomies and client states happy and ensures that much-needed resources continue to flow to the core lands.

The vast areas with sparse human population that get locked within the Kuriotates' disproportionately large sphere of influence and cultural domination mean that they get in contact with many of the rarer species of Erebus. For many civilizations, that might prove problematic, even act as a source of conflict and destruction. For the Kuriotates, it is a boon, and a source of their strength.

For the Kuriotates don't much care who you as long as you have something meaningful to offer to the nation as a whole. The Kuriotates' particularly positive relationship to the non-human species of Erebus dates back to the very beginnings of the confederation, when a small group of Centaurs aided Cardith Lorda in his rise to power. Other creatures, attracted by the special power they detect in the boy king, have since flocked to the Kuriotate banner, escaping marginalization or even persecution in other parts of the world. The Centaurs, having risen to be a force to be reckoned with in Kuriotate political life, smooth their transition and integration into the society, putting their special skills to good use in the areas at which they excel, through innate ability or cultural conditioning.

The culture of the Kuriotates is such that the demi-humans are treated as, and indeed regarded as being, equal to the human majority, and judged by merit and benefit to the nation alone, although the fundamental differences between the races mean that some measure of distinction is necessary in order to allow the Kuriotate nation to run smoothly. However, again this may be a secret benefit.

This specialization and segregation has given rise to something akin to a Caste system, another reason the Kuriotates have such a stable central government. While the humans are the jack of all trades, each of the races have found their niche, dominating their own area. The Centaurs, the warrior caste, hold many high positions in the army, the Lamia wield great magical power, and command respect among the magi, and so on. Since all these subcultures owe allegiance to the king alone, they act, in their specialized roles, as an effective bulwark against the ambitions of human noblemen.

Those few dissidents who let their resentment at being bypassed be channeled into irrational hatred of demi-humans are held in check by strong personal trust in Cardith Lorda and an emphasis on the state religion, not to mention state superstition and traditions. Few Kuriotates dare cross or even question the will of the state, the will of the people of the confederation, and most importantly, the will of the divine Boy-King.

The Kuriotates hold loose sway over a massive sprawl of an empire, but the borders are porous, and when war threatens, they will often act as a turtle, retreating into the hard shell of their core lands until they can muster the forces to take back that which was lost. Thus, the Kuriotates through their openness to others, strong central authority and large but loose sphere of influence have a flexibility many of their opponents lack. Truly, they are one of the centers of enlightenment in the dark of Erebus.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Third one to post the pedia entry wins a prize!


OK, so central urban core + forts seems like it will work fine, Valkrionn. Still curious whether they will be any fun to play...right now I'd have to give that a resounding "no". Would you be raising their city limit any?

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't know... Personally I love the massive, limited cities thing. It all depends on your playstyle... And I always love to build my cities up.

 

[Hawkwood]

I also like to sometimes play with a few massive cities, though some way of increasing the yields of their tiles in the later game might make a bit more fun (not like enclaves since they pop automatically, something that requires to be more active with increasing the yields).

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I don't know... Personally I love the massive, limited cities thing. It all depends on your playstyle... And I always love to build my cities up.

Hey, I'm totally a builder as well. I usually build a huge infrastructure before even thinking about war. The Kurios...just don't feel right to me for some reason. Their special units are all centaurs, which don't really mesh (in my mind) with urban sprawl. Could just be a personal taste thing.

BTW, what ever happened to the other races mentioned in the pedia? Where are the lamias, for example?


Oh yeah, and my second example...what do you think of the Jotnar? Is city spam for them a problem in your mind?

 

[Valkrionn]

Lamias have been modeled, but not animated yet. Been waiting on the animation for quite some time, actually....

The Jotnar I'm not sure about. There needs to be some mechanic to limit sprawl, but I like the way their cities work... Not sure how to get the one, without gimping the other.


And a special build order for the kuriotates that increases yield would be interesting... Not sure how to do it aside from making new terrains.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Lamias have been modeled, but not animated yet. Been waiting on the animation for quite some time, actually....

The Jotnar I'm not sure about. There needs to be some mechanic to limit sprawl, but I like the way their cities work... Not sure how to get the one, without gimping the other.


And a special build order for the kuriotates that increases yield would be interesting... Not sure how to do it aside from making new terrains.

Jotnar...yeah, I'm stumped as well. They should be scarce (dwindling race)...but their mechanic does the opposite. I guess you could do a python city count and increase the cost to upgrade to settler based on the total number of existing cities....but that is a lot of work, I'm not sure if it would work, and I'm not sure it would fix the problem.


Increasing yield for Kurio should be simple. Make a new trait, have it selectable with adaptive, and have it increase yields like financial does...but apply it to food and/or hammers. I think you could make the trait Kurio-only...but I'm not sure.

 

[Valkrionn]

See, that would be simple but I'd rather have it as a build order that requires more of an investment. Would be easy if the aspect system was coded but it's not.

 

[Tarquelne]

The Jotnar I'm not sure about. There needs to be some mechanic to limit sprawl, but I like the way their cities work...

Lower the # of cities maintenance bonus from Traditions? It's -75%, IIRC.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Lower the # of cities maintenance bonus from Traditions? It's -75%, IIRC.

Money is the bottleneck for the Jotnar...that could work. Probably the easiest adjustment to make.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

See, that would be simple but I'd rather have it as a build order that requires more of an investment. Would be easy if the aspect system was coded but it's not.

Well, they are giving up their adaptive choice...

What about a ritual? Build the ritual, add the trait.

 

[Sephi]

I also like to sometimes play with a few massive cities, though some way of increasing the yields of their tiles in the later game might make a bit more fun (not like enclaves since they pop automatically, something that requires to be more active with increasing the yields).

How about a Traveller UU. If he visits foreign cities and spends some time (and money) there, he gets the ability to improve his home city when he returns? I think that fits the "Nomads and wanderers, the Kuriotates search for a home throughout Erebus" lore

 

[far_wanderer]

For the Jotnar, the biggest issue is to remove the primary benefit of city-spam: increased citizen spawn. Make the spawning of Jotnar Citizens unrelated to the number of cities, and you remove a fair amount of the encouragement. It also puts a limit on city sprawl, because if you expand too fast you won't have enough units to defend.
Another thing that would help is to remove the population cap, allowing them to run a halfway decent specialist economy without needing to expand like crazy to keep up in research.