Ring of Flames

[BCalchet]

Here's another big difference between priests and mages: priests can generally get RoF the turn they're built (or maybe a couple of turns later if you're running peacetime civics). 2 xp, and then you have a RoF caster. Adepts need 10 xp to become a mage. While confessors can be made pretty much combat ready, mages require more of an investment.

I wouldn't call it more of an investment as far as hammers are concerned - you just make that purchase earlier, when building the adept.

Gold, on the other hand, does weigh heavily against the mages. (I'd say the likes of Spring, Whirlwind, Haste, Regeneration, Summon Skeleton and other utility spell do quite a bit to counter this, though - a mage will always have something to do, while a confessor is limited to fighting, providing medic and killing himself building a temple somewhere.)

 

[Silverkiss]

True.

Nothing to do with the topic, but I just remenbered a cool strategy with the Calabim. Vampires can get Death II the turn they are built, and that means Contagion. You can have an army of Contagion casters that have average to good strenght depending on the time (They can have 8 strenght on the late game with Mithril Weapons) that can basically destroy any stack whidout combat and still defend themselves and the cities they capture.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Crush does physical damage, essentially the same type that a melee unit would do. Both Crush and contagion do damage to only one tile, but Maelstrom works exactly like RoF except with lightning damage, which is fewer units can resist.

 

[Sureshot]

based on what ive seen, i think the best counter to RoF is Lizardmen Rangers of Sheelba.

Orcs have a natural fire resistance, then sheelba adds on some more via magic resistance, then if you add on 1 promo of fire resist (easily gotten via Apprenticeship), then you're looking at fire immune 2 move units that are easier to get, with 6 strength, who can get 4 movement, so doesn't matter how hasted or mobile those confessors are.

So, someone can have 30 confessors, I can beat them with 15 lizardmen rangers. Or in a normal game, I could just rush a confessor-rusher before they even get confessors while the're rushing them, I believe a confessor rusher would still be researching the order while the first of the rangers rush the warrior defense thats in existence, and would have a decent amount of time, while they finish researching the Order (they need to start working on Priesthood and finding incense after that, tho it wont be very useful once its found, cause like i said, lizardmen rangers with 1 promo are immune to RoF).

 

[katika]

To add to the mage vs. confessor battle, Confessors start with Medic II which now leads directly to March. For 5 XP, Confessors can cast RoF and heal themselves even after moving, and very fast thanks to Medic II. On the other hand, you could just spread out your units so that RoF can only hit one or two units and the rest of your army is posed to strike back. Why would you stack your entire army in one tile against someone who's using Confessors? I still think that RoF is too powerful as it is, but with a simple damage cap and perhaps unit cap (number of units that can be damaged), RoF would be balanced.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Backfire possibilities are cooler.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Why would you stack your entire army in one tile against someone who's using Confessors?

Cities. .

 

[Sureshot]

army of workers in every tile around the city lol, theyd hafta waste an attack/spellcast on killing them heh

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Perhaps Fire damage should be greatly reduced when crossing rivers or bodies of water. Maybe cities could build a new defensive building-a moat-if they have an aqueduct. This could offer something like +50% fire resistance to units garrisoned there.

It would also give a regular defensive bonus, comparable to walls. Perhaps the aqueduct should not be required if the city is on the coast of by a river.

 

[Sureshot]

no need for a new building for it, just make it so aqueducts grant +50% fire resistance.

and that is a good idea.

 

[katika]

Cities. .

Don't let them get to your cities, attack them in the field.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Don't let them get to your cities, attack them in the field.

And leave yourself open for a scalding counterattack? Only cavalry can get in and away, and that only if the terrain is completely flat. Plus, the confessors might bring a few bodyguards... using mages of your own might work well, but that's any bodyguards at all would make them useless.

 

[uberfish]

The trouble with RoF is that not only is it a considerably more effective spell than fireballs or summons (which require you to attack a stack's top defender,) RoF ready priests are very easy to mass produce. If you lose a mage or conjurer stack it takes a while to wait for new adepts to get back to 10 xp and then you have to pay gold to upgrade.

RoF should be moved up to high priests at fire 3 imho, because units that can deal this level of mass destruction should require more investment to train and to replace.

 

[Sureshot]

personally id rather see prophets/disciples/etc. gain XP like adepts, and require Confessors/Ritualists/etc. to upgrade from prophets/disciples/etc.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

personally id rather see prophets/disciples/etc. gain XP like adepts, and require Confessors/Ritualists/etc. to upgrade from prophets/disciples/etc.

Just the Acolyte/Zealot types. And give the Acolytes and Savants an extra point of strength while you're at it.

 

[BlazeRedSXT]

hmm.. I like a combination of those changes. Moving RoF to Fire 3, and making them a .. what... lvl4 upgrade from disciples?
Perhaps give different bonuses to the disciple units, based on a resource...
Like, give Savants a (+1 fire) damage if you have gunpowder.
Zealots a (+1 poison) with .. hmm.. what regeants? mabey Dyes?
Runes disc can get the Bronzeworking weapons tier
Leaves maybe a +1 str with a Nature Mana
Order, give them +1 Holy with Law Mana

does that make those units too strong? I guess it would make them 3/1 units but most of them with portions of resistable damage.

I think that making the Priests more on tier with the magic units makes sense, considering how powerful they can potentially be.

Cheers!

 

[katika]

And leave yourself open for a scalding counterattack? Only cavalry can get in and away, and that only if the terrain is completely flat. Plus, the confessors might bring a few bodyguards... using mages of your own might work well, but that's any bodyguards at all would make them useless.

If they're attacking your cities I hope you have roads, but that's besides the point. Confessors have weaknesses and those should be exploited. Pitting them against city-stacks is putting them in an ideal situation for their use and exaggerates their strength. RoF is unbalanced for its unlimited damage, but it does have counters.


I do have two other ideas for balance of spells in general. First, require a movement point to cast a spell (with certain exceptions of course). Second, I'd like a "Silence" sorcery spell that prevents spell casting. It would work similarly to Charm Person.

 

[Sureshot]

ya, i like those ideas.

i had modded prophets/etc. to gain xp like adepts by giving them Channeling 1 (it didnt let them cast anything, but it gave them xp over time) but still found them without much use, then i gave them the ability to levelup with better healing rates.
but i like the idea of special damage types with certain resources/mana.

id change them to:
Savants (+1 unholy) with entropy mana
Zealots (+1 cold) with water mana
Thane can get Metal weapons
Leaves (+1 poison) with nature mana
Order (+1 Holy) with law mana

 

[Chandrasekhar]

If they're attacking your cities I hope you have roads, but that's besides the point. Confessors have weaknesses and those should be exploited. Pitting them against city-stacks is putting them in an ideal situation for their use and exaggerates their strength. RoF is unbalanced for its unlimited damage, but it does have counters.

Should a priest really be a city-buster, though? It doesn't make any sense... I see your point, though.

I do have two other ideas for balance of spells in general. First, require a movement point to cast a spell (with certain exceptions of course). Second, I'd like a "Silence" sorcery spell that prevents spell casting. It would work similarly to Charm Person.

I think that spells that cost a movement to cast should be in the minority. They should be the exception, not the rule.

hmm.. I like a combination of those changes. Moving RoF to Fire 3, and making them a .. what... lvl4 upgrade from disciples?
Perhaps give different bonuses to the disciple units, based on a resource...
Like, give Savants a (+1 fire) damage if you have gunpowder.
Zealots a (+1 poison) with .. hmm.. what regeants? mabey Dyes?
Runes disc can get the Bronzeworking weapons tier
Leaves maybe a +1 str with a Nature Mana
Order, give them +1 Holy with Law Mana

does that make those units too strong? I guess it would make them 3/1 units but most of them with portions of resistable damage.

I think that making the Priests more on tier with the magic units makes sense, considering how powerful they can potentially be.

Cheers!

ya, i like those ideas.

i had modded prophets/etc. to gain xp like adepts by giving them Channeling 1 (it didnt let them cast anything, but it gave them xp over time) but still found them without much use, then i gave them the ability to levelup with better healing rates.
but i like the idea of special damage types with certain resources/mana.

id change them to:
Savants (+1 unholy) with entropy mana
Zealots (+1 cold) with water mana
Thane can get Metal weapons
Leaves (+1 poison) with nature mana
Order (+1 Holy) with law mana

No, no, the point of giving Acolytes and Savants an extra point of strength is because they come so much later. Is a 3 strength medic disciple-class unit that can spread its religion and costs, what, 60 balanced? Maybe at Orders from Heaven, but not Way of the Forests.

 

[eerr]

maybe make it the reverse of dnd-divine casters don't get insta-cast(costs 1 movement point to cast a spell)