Rivers and Hydro Power

[star15389]

I think the whole premise, that there's supposed to be tradeoff between different sources, is wrong. Fossil fuels have always been way more important than nuclear and hydro combined, to the point that even countries like France and Canada that have made exceptional use of alternative energy sources still rely on fossil fuels and used to rely them even more. So I think the solution is simpler: power comes from coal plants, period. Hydro and nuclear require coal plant to be built; Hydro gives a hammer bonus and maybe +1+2 or something like that. Nuclear gives a similar hammer bonus, +2, and enables construction of ICBM in that city

 

[1SDANi]

I think the whole premise, that there's supposed to be tradeoff between different sources, is wrong. Fossil fuels have always been way more important than nuclear and hydro combined, to the point that even countries like France and Canada that have made exceptional use of alternative energy sources still rely on fossil fuels and used to rely them even more. So I think the solution is simpler: power comes from coal plants, period. Hydro gives a hammer bonus and maybe +1+2 or something like that. Nuclear gives a similar hammer bonus, +2, and enables construction of ICBM in that city

I can see that argument for everything except Nuclear Power. The only real risk for Nuclear Power is the public relations malus. Modern Nuclear Reactors don't melt down. The last government approved Nuclear Reactor design to suffer a major meltdown was Chernobyl in 1986 and that particular design was extremely flawed even by the era's standards. If possible, it'd be interesting to see some tech between Fusion and Fission get an effect that massively reduces the chance of meltdowns. Though it'd be rather interesting if Nuclear Reactors gave +1 per power used.

 

[Vectors]

I can see that argument for everything except Nuclear Power. The only real risk for Nuclear Power is the public relations malus. Modern Nuclear Reactors don't melt down. The last government approved Nuclear Reactor design to suffer a major meltdown was Chernobyl in 1986 and that particular design was extremely flawed even by the era's standards. If possible, it'd be interesting to see some tech between Fusion and Fission get an effect that massively reduces the chance of meltdowns. Though it'd be rather interesting if Nuclear Reactors gave +1 per power used.

How about no unhappiness until a reactor melts down, then all reactors gives unhappiness, and people start demanding you end nuclear power?

 

[Leoreth]

How about no unhappiness until a reactor melts down, then all reactors gives unhappiness, and people start demanding you end nuclear power?

Oh that's interesting. I don't know if you (or most people) are aware, but the random meltdown chance from the base game has been removed. Instead, there's an event with roughly the same rate of occurence where you encounter a reactor leak, and you can either choose to fix the problem (costs money and has a very low meltdown chance), ignore the problem (causes temporary unhappiness, has a somewhat higher meltdown chance, and the event may continue like slave revolts), or decide to phase out nuclear power (all nuclear plants obsolete).

Would be interesting to let the first two decisions also stack +1 unhappiness on all nuclear plants every time they're picked? Obsolete buildings do not cause unhappiness so picking the phasing out option would get rid of the problem.

 

[brett0007]

Oh that's interesting. I don't know if you (or most people) are aware, but the random meltdown chance from the base game has been removed. Instead, there's an event with roughly the same rate of occurence where you encounter a reactor leak, and you can either choose to fix the problem (costs money and has a very low meltdown chance), ignore the problem (causes temporary unhappiness, has a somewhat higher meltdown chance, and the event may continue like slave revolts), or decide to phase out nuclear power (all nuclear plants obsolete).

Would be interesting to let the first two decisions also stack +1 unhappiness on all nuclear plants every time they're picked? Obsolete buildings do not cause unhappiness so picking the phasing out option would get rid of the problem.

In my opinion id rather not punish nuclear capable civs with stacking penalties permanently, I'd advocate for a safe reactor tech or Thorium. Or some way to offset it like a a national/world wonder that is a production sink

 

[Leoreth]

That would be unrealistic though.

 

[1SDANi]

Agent K's we live in a society line is probably the best description of how the public consciousness views the danger of nuclear reactors that I've ever seen

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it

 

[Leoreth]

There is no legislation or popular will opposing thorium reactors in most of the world that I am aware of. Still the market, known for finding the most efficient solution to any problem known to mankind, hasn't produced them yet. I am left to conclude that nuclear power isn't all that great when you don't wanna build ICBMs as a side gig.

 

[brett0007]

There is no legislation or popular will opposing thorium reactors in most of the world that I am aware of. Still the market, known for finding the most efficient solution to any problem known to mankind, hasn't produced them yet. I am left to conclude that nuclear power isn't all that great when you don't wanna build ICBMs as a side gig.

The market does not find solutions, it just finds the easiest and cheapest way to make a quick buck, it just so happens a lot of the side effects of that are beneficial.

 

[1SDANi]

There is no legislation or popular will opposing thorium reactors in most of the world that I am aware of. Still the market, known for finding the most efficient solution to any problem known to mankind, hasn't produced them yet. I am left to conclude that nuclear power isn't all that great when you don't wanna build ICBMs as a side gig.

Too much of the market is built on fossil fuels. Diversifying your portfolio is for peasants, the real corporations twist the law to fit their world. See: Mickey Mouse and Fossil Fuel Subsidies.

Also, the fossil fuel industry has made Windmill Syndrome a widely known phenomenon that represents a real threat to the spread of wind power despite it being completely fictitious. I highly doubt there won't or hasn't been something similar to prevent thorium reactors from being built.

 

[brett0007]

Too much of the market is built on fossil fuels. Diversifying your portfolio is for peasants, the real corporations twist the law to fit their world. See: Mickey Mouse and Fossil Fuel Subsidies.

Also, the fossil fuel industry has made Windmill Syndrome a widely known phenomenon that represents a real threat to the spread of wind power despite it being completely fictitious. I highly doubt there won't or hasn't been something similar to prevent thorium reactors from being built.

Ironically a lot of the largest investors in renewables are oil companies. back on track it was mostly lack of interest, India is now putting big investment in it due to having huge thorium deposits and needing to cleanly power a subcontinent.

 

[1SDANi]

Ironically a lot of the largest investors in renewables are oil companies. back on track it was mostly lack of interest, India is now putting big investment in it due to having huge thorium deposits and needing to cleanly power a subcontinent.

Yes, but it seems to me that they see it as a sort of Plan B, back on track hopefully that interest continues to grow

 

[brett0007]

Yes, but it seems to me that they see it as a sort of Plan B, back on track hopefully that interest continues to grow

Its more smart business, they know for a fact that global warming is going to hit us like a train in the next few decades so preemptive Investments into alternatives is just good business if your in the energy sector, remember there interested in making mountains of money, if it's in there self interests and seems reasonable given reasonable knowledge. That's the reason that companies will bend over to virtue signal about how they agree with BLM despite using african/asian sweatshop labour to make cheap consumer products...

 

[Leoreth]

The market does not find solutions, it just finds the easiest and cheapest way to make a quick buck, it just so happens a lot of the side effects of that are beneficial.

That's not what I learned at PragerU

 

[1SDANi]

Its more smart business, they know for a fact that global warming is going to hit us like a train in the next few decades so preemptive Investments into alternatives is just good business if your in the energy sector, remember there interested in making mountains of money, if it's in there self interests and seems reasonable given reasonable knowledge. That's the reason that companies will bend over to virtue signal about how they agree with BLM despite using african/asian sweatshop labour to make cheap consumer products...

Oh I'm aware of that, but they seem to be of the mindset of "bank off Plan A as much as possible while setting up to switch to Plan B the moment Plan A is not longer viable" with no regard for the catastrophically massive number of people they are essentially murdering with Plan A

 

[brett0007]

That's not what I learned at PragerU

PragerU is for Capitalism, what Chapo Trap House is for socialism.

But back on topic. I still think thorium should be an optional route for nuclear energy.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay. It would be unrealistic.

 

[brett0007]

Okay. It would be unrealistic.

On what grounds? Its been technologically possible for decades, India is developing it. It makes sense that it would be an option to develop.

 

[triplebassist]

On the grounds that nobody has developed it yet. DoC doesn't go into speculative futures, and while the technology is certainly possible, it hasn't been used on a large scale by any country on the level to justify its inclusion in a mod that goes only until the present day

 

[brett0007]

On the grounds that nobody has developed it yet. DoC doesn't go into speculative futures, and while the technology is certainly possible, it hasn't been used on a large scale by any country on the level to justify its inclusion in a mod that goes only until the present day

Nobody has landed on mars yet...