Roads and Lands (a call for the modder community)

[V. Soma]

and:

on your map-example I see "S"-es that are part of the road, right?
So these S-s are same as road tiles?
Then:

Check these parts on the lower part of your map:

- * - R
- * - -
- * - -
- S * *

isn't it 5 in 3x3? (bottom-right 3x3)

and:

* - *
- * -
S - -

here we have 4 but no horizontal or vertical alignment of 2 roads...


hm?

EDIT:

only thing I can accept that on these S-s there are no roads, roads only lead to them and end there
...but in this case the S does NOT mean continuity for the road, not for military supply, either...

 

[V. Soma]

mrgenie, with your rules as in your attached doc, I can make this loop:

* * * X X X * * *
* * X * * * X * *
X X * * * * * X X
* * X * * * X * *
* * * X X X * * *

But as it is 7 tiles wide, I think it is acceptable,
as it is a likely distance between 2 cities

 

[V. Soma]

I guess these rules may work

EDIT
let me quote them, so others see it:

* The rule 2x2 with max 2 roads
* The 3x3rule with max 3 roads,
EXCEPT, when 2 roads (within the 3x3 matrix) are either horizontally or vertically aligned - then 4 roads
* Imperial road can only be build to an existing imperial road


But I think we shouldn't have extra rules around the cities.
Instead, simply do not take cities as roads for the rule,
and thus there can be only 3 exits from a city...

(with the city in the centre of the 3x3 zone)

 

[mrgenie]

Why would you allow for a city to have 4 exits? or why restrict to have 2?
I guess 3 is enough, so let the same rule (3 in 3x3 /plust the city/ apply here)

I wouldn't allow to 4 or restrict to 2...like i said, no rule for the city is needed because the 3x3 already incorporates this...

it;s just, principally, with the 2x2 rule as standard(we all agree this rule MUST BE) using the diagonals 4roads to a city is the maximum...I just assumed a player might not want diagonals and north south instead...nothing more
was just writing thoughts

but you're absolutely right, the 2x2 and 3x3 rule would do the job

 

[mrgenie]

yes, you're right about the 5 in the 3x3 but any player or computer can solve the problem by going on in diagonals...it's just hypothetically an example of what might be the issue we want to create...and yes S=Strategical resources WITH imperial road INCLUDED mistake of me to make 5tiles in a 3x3

as for the 7loop....such a loop is acceptable...regarding normally there will be some sort of strategical resource somewhere in between anyway, you might not want to create the loop anyway...the problem is...you dont know all resources from the beginning..now a human player can delete roads and build them somewhat different to include strategical resources into the system of imperial roads...
but, the computer must have some rule:
IF new strategical resource AND no imperial road possible because of rule,
THEN, delete and rebuild the system with N x N area..
then we must think the theoretical minimum which the computer needs to fix the roads including the new resource.

or...make a true exeption!! IF no road possible to new city or new resource, THEN apply 4max on 3x3 rule ONE TIME ONLY...to make sure you can leave the existing loops...i think a human player is smart enough to do this himself..butfor the AI we must think of something to cover failures.

 

[V. Soma]

Seems like we (mostly you) have come to some achievement here !

 

[mrgenie]

WE! it's a matter of discussing possibilities that leads to successes, not 1 person can discuss most famous physician(einstein) didnt discover anything himself..he discussed with his friends hundrets of hours...that was the succes!! not the person! the discussion!

 

[V. Soma]

Hi folks!
Especially mrgenie and keldath there!

It has been disapperaing acts lately from me, but now here I am
and would like to ask whteher we can catch up on the project described here

 

[V. Soma]

MrGenie and - I hope - the Visa creating community still support this mod,
for them I put up the new document in the OP

 

[mrgenie]

it's not a matter of support, it's a matter of time! the moment I'll find time i'll give it a shot to start making subroutines for it..

 

[V. Soma]

Well, let me give here an attached xls file to show examples of the imperial road...

I tried to collect the possible variations of the 4 tiles in the 3x3 field,
and I counted 16 basic cases,
together with rotations: 64 variations.
I think that is a good number: variant but not TOO much...

 

[V. Soma]

Below I would give an idea of the Imperial Road:

Imperial roads would evolve "naturally" from economic roads (“simple” roads)
in the following way:

Every city has a cultural level.
This value will be used for measuring the number of tiles a city can „give” to a would be imperial road.
Let’s call it imperial road value: IRV.
So IRV is 1 at foundation of the city and jumps to 2 at the first border jump, 3 at the next and so on.
Strongholds have cultural level 1, so their IRV is 1.

CONNECTING ROADS TO TURN INTO IMPERIAL ROAD

When the roads CONNECT two cities/strongholds,
there is a possibility of the connecting road to become imperial road!

AI checks the shortest connecting road between the two cities/strongholds
and counts the number of tiles of this road

IRV RULE:
If the number of tiles of the shortest connecting road is less or equal
to the the added IRV of the two respective cities/strongholds:
then
CLOSE CITY RULE:
When IRV RULE is POSITIVE, there is another check:
Say the connection would be between city/stronghold A and B.
The AI checks whether there is a city/stronghold C on the map that
would give a road “A–C plus C–B” of length equal or shorter than “A–B”
– if there is, then this imperial road is abandoned!
- if there is not, then the connecting road will AUTOMATICALLY TURN INTO IMPERIAL road!
(changing time: for normal speed: the number of tiles times two)


If the number of tiles of the shortest connecting road is more than
the added IRV of the two respective cities/strongholds – the road remains a road.

(But later it can turn into imperial road, when the IRV of the cities get bigger,
or the structure of the map changes (by building a stronghold, for instance)

There could be ONE uninterrupted imperial road between two given cities/strongholds.

As written in the mod-plan (see OP), imperial roads have the function
- to bring support to military units
- to create trade between civs
- to allow faster move than on economic road

Note:
If we take this concept, then there is no need for the "3x3" and "2x2" rules
to check the number of imperial road tiles.

 

[V. Soma]

Now, that the ViSa team has Roads and lands planned to MAKE (code),
I try to think over the plan...

Right now I think (together with söör, my co-planner),
that ships sould need NO supply.
The fact that they cannot capture city supports this, too

Also: how about no supply needed for gunships, either?

Blockading a harbor would cut resource trade
and the commerce trade by coastal tiles or ocean.

 

[kettyo]

Blockading a harbor would cut resource trade
and the commerce trade by coastal tiles or ocean.

Blocking resource trade would need to blockade every single seaside city which is too big work for it's benefit.
Also it would need diplomatic additions too because blockading trade hurts another civ too. It should give you negative diplomodifiers or something.
It's not easy

 

[V. Soma]

Blocking resource trade would need to blockade every single seaside city which is too big work for it's benefit.
Also it would need diplomatic additions too because blockading trade hurts another civ too. It should give you negative diplomodifiers or something.
It's not easy

You have valid points there...

Uh, well, but I like blockade of the city from sea - how could it be a good game concept?

The blockade itself would mean
the occupation of all water tiles within the 21-tile city area.
A ship would have a 3x3 zone for this role...

 

[kettyo]

You have valid points there...

Uh, well, but I like blockade of the city from sea - how could it be a good game concept?

The blockade itself would mean
the occupation of all water tiles within the 21-tile city area.
A ship would have a 3x3 zone for this role...

To don't mess things too up i would restrict blockade effects to the city under blockade. It's too complicated to model nationwide and international effects.
I think it could be done that until the blockade exists all access to sea resources are blocked for the city. It could be implemented for land blockade the same way. (making it to starve or revolt by happiness/health decrease).
Of course the openborders trade output of the city could have been blocked too. (it's harder to implement how it affects other mostly foreign cities trade routes to the blockaded city)

 

[V. Soma]

OK, so what I see is that blockade from sea might complete
a full blockade of the city - thus a city would not get any resource then

 

[1shmael]

What I want most is a road that will make impassible terrain, passable.

For example, I would like to make flood plains impassable by cannon unless a road (or your imperial type) is present. Destroy the road and the cannons cannot cross through the flood plain. As another example, tanks could not move through jungles unless such a road were present (these roads would be usable by both friendly and unfriendly units).

 

[V. Soma]

What I want most is a road that will make impassible terrain, passable.

For example, I would like to make flood plains impassable by cannon unless a road (or your imperial type) is present. Destroy the road and the cannons cannot cross through the flood plain. As another example, tanks could not move through jungles unless such a road were present (these roads would be usable by both friendly and unfriendly units).

Aha, so this would imply that certian types of terrain are impassable for certain units, so the imperial road would allow them to be passable...

May be an interesting feature - I will discuss it with the ViSa Team

 

[1shmael]

Aha, so this would imply that certian types of terrain are impassable for certain units, so the imperial road would allow them to be passable...

May be an interesting feature - I will discuss it with the ViSa Team

Yes. I already have my units in ViSa set up this way. It makes terrain much more fundamental to the game. One of the greatest benefits is that exploration of the complete map is far longer delayed. It would be a lot better , however, were I able to open up terrain with an "imperial road."

In Civ 3, I did the same. At the beginning of the game, my initial warrior could enter only grasslands and praries -- no forests, no hills, no deserts, no tundra, no jungle, no snow, no mountains. As more advanced units were developed, they gained access to more terrain types. I even had special units , buildable only when the player had a set of three resources, that could enter terrain earlier than would other players.

Using this system, I was able to experience a real "Age of Discovery" around 1600, when I finally gained limited access to jungles. Ussually these areas were by this time heavily populated by barbarians however so, as I discovered them, I was in for a hard battle (as the first units I had that could enter the jungles were very weak).