Roads are fundamentally flawed in game.

I think the essential problem with road spamming in civ4 is, there's nothing else for the workers to do at the end. So they end up road spamming to places that are nowhere.

So how about workers being able to become population. If I remember correctly, I thing this was possible in civ3. This does unlock a strategy where you can make a dozen workers before making a new city. But this would be very costly in an early game anyways, the only time there's any extra land to make new cities. A possible solution for the endgame is having workers upgraded at a certain tech to be very expensive (the upgraded worker being faster like the indian worker, but only the same effect for becoming population). Players are tempted to convert workers into population after having them build what is really necessary.


And about being able to use enemy roads: well think of it this way, if you know the enemy is going to be able to use your roads, you won't build roads in places you don't need and the enemy might use. You would probably build many roads in the center of your empire, while having few roads by your borders. I would imagine myself building a hill-fort and having country-border-road go through it. Connecting cities with multiple paths will have their merits and demerits: it will be harder to cut them off from the rest of your empire, but the empire itself will be vulnerable from mobile units.
But I still think the AI won't be able to use all this as well though.

Interesting thing to think about :)
 
In Civ 3 dedicated worker pumps would pound away creating much of the civ's population, and cities didn't have to grow their own.

I don't really see a problem with roadspam in Civ 4 when all other work has dried up. So what?
 
Okay, let's give this a try...
Long time lurker, first time poster.
...
I've been using CivIV as "tool" for developing role-playing "campaigns" for a number of years now.
This allows me to provide a quick and dirty background history and have a game-world that functions on a larger scale in some parts.
A player character that is also a general gets to determine the movement of their "stack", a PC-mayor can choose improvements, a PC-king gets the whole interface each turn.
This whole approach brings up issues of specific scale that are interesting.

For example, my most recent campaign is in the zombie genera like Walking Dead meets Road Warrior.
I use the map from RoadWar 2000 at 96 squares e/w by 40 squares n/s.
This brings up a simple question.
Roughly how big is each square on that map?
I find that setting each square to a scale of about 40 miles across is roughly in the ballpark for the actual distances and areas represented.
Knowing the scale for each square makes a big difference in how I look at it on the map.

Civ has always played it pretty loose here.
I mostly get it.
With turns as long as they are questions about the movement scale can get really weird pretty quickly.
How far could a Panzer move in a 40 year turn?
I'm not trying to nitpick here.
Consider the following comments from this thread.

"Somehow tangential to this thread, there is definitely a flaw in railroading mines and lumbermills. You get +1 on a mine only because a railroad segment on a hill that leads nowhere. I think you should get the +1 only if the railroad connects to a city."

" Just look outside your window, and you'll see tons of roads leading to everywhere."

Simply stating a rough scale, like 40 miles across a tile for the RoadWar map, can help address this kind of thing by giving the players the same basic idea of a tile.
I get that the abstractness of the scale allows flexibility for scenario and map design, and I'm not trying to advocate for some stringently fixed scale system here but some kind of basic scale was assumed in design for unit sight if nothing else.
I live at the beach.
Technically when standing on the shore in clear conditions I can see maybe 4 miles out into the Pacific.
If I were standing in the middle of a square 40 miles across I'd have to get up a 3000ish foot high "hill" to "see" the surrounding squares.
A huge map of Terra is a different ballpark.
90 n/s by 210 e/w?
Call it 25,000 miles round the equator... something like 120 miles across a square or three times the RoadWar map.
I'd expect a road on the American Revolution map to have different effects maybe than a road on a huge Terran map.
If one let's the scale get TOO abstract you can end up with oddness like tiles that are obviously meant to represent areas of thousands of square miles that only allow 1 "unit?" per tile.
THAT sounds like a fixed scale limit too me.

Here's notes on the RoadWar thing.
I use the old Metagamming Melee stuff for the basic individual character system so that's why this mentions 1.3 meter scaled hexes.
Also worth noting is that I draw hexes on quarter-inch graph-paper.
The way I lay them out a 1-inch hex is the same area as a 1-inch square.

1 Page is 10 inches from top to bottom (north to south) by 8 inches from side to side (east to west).
10 one inch hexes cross a Page from top to bottom and 8 from side to side.
1 Melee-hex is 1 inch from hex-side to opposite hex-side (top to bottom) on the Page and 1 1/4'' from easternmost vertex to westernmost vertex (side to side).
1 Melee-hex represent a distance of 1.3m (4.3ft.) from hex-side to opposite hex-side.
4 Pages top to bottom by 5 pages side to side equal 1 large table-map (3.3 feet by 3.3 feet) that is 40 by 40 one inch hexes.
1 Vehicle-hex is 4 Melee-hexes across.
1 Mass-hex is 40 meters (31 Melee-hexes) across from side to opposite side, and roughly 40 Melee hexes across from easternmost vertex to westernmost vertex.
There are about 40 Mass-hexes across per mile.
5 Mass-hexes across is 1 furlong (or stadia), or an eighth of a mile.
A League is 3 miles, roughly the distance a man or horse walks in 1 hour.
At 1 League per hour 1 furlong is covered every two and a half minuets.
There are about 10 miles per Strategy-hex or 400 Mass-hexes on the Strategy Map.
There are 1600 Mass-hexes across 1 Campaign-square (64,000m or about 40 miles).
1 Campaign-hex is 160 miles across from side to opposite side.
There are 36 Campaign-hexes from the earths equator to a pole.
A mega-Campaign-hex is 5 Campaign-hexes across from side to opposite side.
Each mega-Campaign-hex is 25 Campaign-hexes in area.
1 mega-Campaign-hex is 800 miles across from side to opposite side.

Long story short it takes about 50,000 1.3m Melee-hexes (roughly from wrist to wrist for 6 foot tall Figure w/hands [swords, etc.] reaching into adj hexes) to cross one 40 mile square.
1 unit per "tile" simply doesn't work on this scale-level as it's about 2.5 billion Melee-hexes in total area.

So for me, with the RoadWar stuff and how I'm trying to "use" CivIV I've got each "tile" conceptualized at about 40 miles across or about 1600 square miles in area.
This tells me a lot about what I would like to get outta fiddlin with roads.
If I were looking at an order of magnitude "closer" (4 miles across) I might expect the enemy to get to "use" my roads... with Panzers anyway, 1 square is like the Grand National at that scale...

Anyway, that's my two cents and you can't have them because I need 'em for a boatride...

<time, time, time, see what's become of me...>
 

--WMMMWMMMMMMMMHgggggggggggggggggffffffffffft22 2222228WWWW-WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW-
---tWMMMMMMMMMMHHgggggggggggggggggffffffffff1WW W-WWWWW\WW0222228WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW----
----4MMMgggMMMMHHHHgggggggggggggggggffffffff1ff WWSS-WWW97-----WW9228WWWWWWWWWWWW-WWW-WggW--WWW
-WM-tMMfgg0t2228MHHgggggHggggggggggoggffffff1ff WWSWWWWW---------WWWW\WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWggg-WWWWW
-WMtf92227fWWMMM\MHHHHHgggggggggggggggf02222t8f fWWWWSW----W------WWWW\WWWWWWW-WWWWWWgt--WWWWWW
--W1fMMffffffMMWW\HHHHHgggggggggg022227ffffff49 28WWWWWW-WWWW--WWW-WWWW\WWWWWWWWWWWWg/WWWWWWWWW
--W1fMMfffffHMHHMM928HHggggggggg/ggggggffffff1f ff98WWWWWWWWWWWW-W------\WWWWWWWWWWg/WWWWWffWWW
--Wt2222228gHMHHHMHHH928ffgggg07gggggggffffff1f fffft8fffWWWWW---WW------4WWWWWt022t28WWWHffWWW
--WtfMMfffW4MMMMHHHMMMMM922226ggggggggggfffff1f ffff1f\WfffWf--fWWfW---g-1WWWg07gMM1MW4MMffWWg-
--WtfMMggMM5fMMMMMMWggMMoHHMggggggMggggffffff1f ffff6ff98Wfff--Wfff---gggt2227-fWMM1MW1Mfff----
--W5WMMgggMg9t22228ggfMMMHHHHHggggWggggggggff1f fff3fffff98ff--ffffff-gggt-----ffWf6MW5Wf------
-WMf4MMgggggggfffff\fHMHMggggHgggggfggggggggf5f fff1fffffff9t--t22t8fg027gt2t22t22tWWff4-------
--MM1MMfgggggg0228gg\gHHHgggggMgffffggggggggff4 fff1ffffffff1--ff/o4tt----6offf1gW19t22t-------
--WM1MHHggg027gggg4-f4H022222228fffoffggfffffft fff1ffffffffttff/fft----07WoWWWtWf10t2tfi------
-WWM1MMHgd3ggggggd5--t7MMHHHMMMH4f02222222222tf 4ff1fffffff/gg43ff/o92ttffffWWWtfftii----------
-WWM1fMHdg6ggggggdd97tMWWHHHMMMH1/fffffffffffff 1ff6ffffff/fff51o3off/tft2222222tt-------------
--WM5f02t7gggggggddgg6MggoHMMHMHtgoggfffoffffff 5f/ffffff3ffff0tftfftffWMMWWWfftfW-------------
--WWftfMMggggggggggg/MgggHffMHHHtggggffffofffff ft22228ff60227f19t27ffofMMMWff3f---------------

---Wtt4fMMggggggggg3fMgggHMMMMHH1ggfgfffffffff0 7ffffff9t7foffW1ffWfWWMMMMMWfftf---------------
----tftffMMgddggggg6MggggHMMMHHH1ggffffffffot7f ffffW027W4ffofftffWffWMMMMWfft-W---------------
----MtHtffMMgddggg/MgggggHHHHHMH1ggggggggfff1ff f0227gWWW1gffff6WfWWWMMMWWff0t-----------------
-----tfHtffMMdgdd/ggggHHHMHHHHMH6ggggggggfff1fo /ffWWWWWW6ffff/ffWWWMMMWff07/ft----------------
-----WWHHtofMdddtHggggggHHMMHH07fggffggggfff1ot ffWMMMWW3Wf02tffWWMMMMffftWtffSS---------------
-------fHtoHddd/gHggWMgggggHHt8Hfgfffgogfffft7o fffffffWt27Wff\WWMMMMg0t7Wf6fW-----------------
-------ftt\HHH/dggggHMMWWWMHH6H922222t2222271ff WWWWWWf/1ggWgfW\WWMMgtgWWg/WSW-----------------
-----------ttt222228gHHHMMMM3HMHggggf1fffffo5ff WW02227f1fgWWfff\W027WWWg/WS-------------------
------------\fdddddftgggHHHM5HMHggoogtfffoggg40 27fWWWgf1gfW0t222tggWggf3W---------------------
-------------t8ddddgg\ggggggg4H02222222222222tf ffoWoWWf6og3WWWWgg\WgWWW6----------------------
-------------tdtddddddt222222t7Hggggogggggff/ff WWWWWWW3WfW1gffffWW4WWW/-----------------------
-------------ddd--ddd3HHgggggt928gggggggggftfff WWWWWWW1ofW6WfWffff1WW3------------------------
--------------ddd--dd1MMMgggg1ggH9228gggggftfff fWWWofW1fW/WWW WgWf5WS1------------------------
---------------dd---dtMMMMggg5gggHggg928gggtfff fot22285-/---- WWWWW4Wt------------------------
----------------dd---d\MMMMggf4gddHddggg92tf922 to---SS9to---- --W-W1W5------------------------
----------------ddd---d4MMMMgftgddddHHggg35fffo --------------------1fW4-----------------------
-----------------ddd---5MMMMHgg4gddddgggg6g\fo- --------------------1Wt1-----------------------
------------------dd---d\MMMMMg5gddddggg3ggot-- --------------------t7f5-----------------------
-------------------------\MMMMgg\gddgggg6gggg-- ---------------------\f-t----------------------
-------------------------f\MMMMgg\gddgg3ggoff-- ----------------------92t--i-------------------
---------------------------\MMMHggt2222tggott-- -----------------------St---i------------------
----------------------------\MMot7ggggHgfggg--- -----------------------S-----t-----------------
-----------------------------97MMggggggHgfgg--- ---------------------ii----g--i----------------
------------------------------fMMggggggHgggg--- ----------------------------i--i---------------





- water
i island
f farm
g plain
o oil
W woods
S swamp
H hills
M mountains

t town

1 road n side to s side
2 road e side to w side
3 road s side to ne corner
4 road s side to nw corner
5 road se corner to n side
6 road sw corner to n side
7 road w side to ne corner
8 road w side to se corner
9 road nw corner to e side
0 road sw corner to e side

"Each movement on the overland map represents travel of approximately fifty to seventy-five miles."

The east to west break represents the weather-line for winter effects.
The north to south break represents the page break between the 2 sections of the PC DOS maps.
 
Wait that post was srs? I reported it because I thought it was a spambot. >.>
 
"Wait that post was srs? I reported it because I thought it was a spambot. >.>"

:confused:

Should I be insulted or complimented?

:crazyeye:

The second post is just an ascii representation of the hypothetical map for RoadWar 2000 I was talking about.

The first "wall of text" was me saying that IMHO Civ needs to fix a "basic" scale system.

IF "Roads are fundamentally flawed" I 'personally' think it has a lot to do with the lack of a scale system for the overall concept.

What physical dimensions does a "square" represent?

More importantly to why I'm here instead of the CivV section; how big does a "Unit" need to be in people to "fill" 1 tile?

And of course, what does a road mean on that tile as defined like that?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass.
I just use the thing in an odd way perhaps.
Maybe I'm being too speculative?

Anyhoo, if I'm outta line I beg forgiveness and didn't mean to "spew" all over the forms.
It's just an opinion.
 
Hah, the strange references coupled with the fact I saw the ascii text as some kind of spamming made me, combined with the stranger post structure and double post think you are a spambot.

But apparently, you are legit, so sorry about that. ;)

A square in civ IV is pretty damned huge, considering it takes people centuries to run across them, so I'd imagine you'd fit several hundred thousand easily, city sizes in game support this.
 
That's got to be the most formidable second post I've seen since I joined the forum 6 years go.

Welcome to civ fanatics.

T/Y for the welcome.

That map isn't mine directly.
uhhhh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtaAh9JmyS0

It's a basic playthrough on youtube

I just noticed this vid shows the missing map areas around the Alabama gulf coast I'd missed in notating the thing.
Couldn't find one on the web so spent the best part of a day playing to get it down.

As I used graph-paper I went on to draw state-lines and also major rivers along square-sides.
I also bothered to mess with lines of longitude and latitude.
For what it is it's a nifty little map for '87 in this style.

Credit to those guys.
It wasn't much before this that the great highlight of my computer game life was solving Scott Adams 'Adventureland' with the frustrated command <screw bear> with shocking results.
Apparently parsers at the time were only looking at 4 letter words in "scale" and the command <scream bear> would have scared it off the ledge too but the player visual certainly wouldn't have been the same in the retelling.
 
Hah, the strange references coupled with the fact I saw the ascii text as some kind of spamming made me, combined with the stranger post structure and double post think you are a spambot.

But apparently, you are legit, so sorry about that. ;)

A square in civ IV is pretty damned huge, considering it takes people centuries to run across them, so I'd imagine you'd fit several hundred thousand easily, city sizes in game support this.

I get that a Civ square is big, but how big?
How much spam could one fit into a single tile?
The American Revolution seems to use radically different sized squares than a huge map of Terra does.
This bugs me a bit when trying to be general about things like roads.

Oh and on the spam...
:goodjob:
I don't like spam.
I prefer things withOUT spam.
Have you anything withOUT spam?
Waitress: welllll... spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam ...spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam...
Vikings: Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam!
Waitress: ...or Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Wife: I don't want ANY spam!
Man: Why can't she have egg bacon spam and sausage?
Wife: THAT'S got spam in it!
Man: Hasn't got as much spam in it as spam egg sausage and spam, has it?
Vikings: Spam spam spam spam... (Crescendo through next few lines...)
Wife: Could you do the egg bacon spam and sausage without the spam then?
Waitress: Urgghh!
Wife: What do you mean 'Urgghh'? I don't like spam!
Vikings: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up!
Vikings: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up! (Vikings stop) Bloody Vikings! You can't have egg bacon spam and sausage without the spam.
Wife: I don't like spam!
Man: Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam beaked beans spam spam spam and spam!
Vikings: Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up!! Baked beans are off.
Man: Well could I have her spam instead of the baked beans then?
Waitress: You mean spam spam spam spam spam spam... (but it is too late and the Vikings drown her words)
Vikings: (Singing elaborately...) Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam. Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Spam spam spam spam!

<Daisy, Daaasiy.., giiiive meee youkldfjghjk........>
 
I'm not trying to be a smart ass.
I just use the thing in an odd way perhaps.
Maybe I'm being too speculative?

No, scale is easily one of the hardest fundamental balances to attempt in a game like civ. Most games, civ included, fudge on it quite a bit just to get something workable.

This is also one of the reasons I really dislike realism arguments for a lot of the gameplay mechanics that are poor for other reasons; while the game loosely follows history in some senses its basic premise and rule-sets are not realistic at all. Eventually, you break reality so that you can actually play a game. Even so, why scale it one way vs another? It's not wrong to question movement, units/tile, scaling of cities vs worked land, etc. Those kinds of things could make the game much better (or worse).
 
This is why I don't have a problem with road spam in civ IV. Although the value of roading everywhere *is* worthwhile...just after other improvements are done and you have a lull between that and new available improvements you want. A good road network is a serious boon in MP, but again not at the expense of massive amounts of :food: and :hammers:.

"anyone can use these" is indeed an interesting concept for roads. Without something wonky like reintroduction of ZoC though, it would make mounted absolutely ludicrous, especially after engineering.

It would also make siege way too good. Allowing use of roads in enemy territory with a zone of control would be more realistic, and I'd have no problems with it. BUT other things would have to be tweaked because at higher levels the sheer number of units you'd need to stay protected would lose you nine out of ten games at immortal-deity. As it is, things are well balanced.
 
I think you bottled up too much of what to say in all the years of lurking..

Grats on letting it out? Welcome to the forums.
 
I certainly like the ideas both of roads costing maintenance and having gradations in road quality finer than just the Engineering movement bonus and rail - yes, the Roman Empire is a great real-world example - but in practice any implementation would skew the game badly.
 
I certainly like the ideas both of roads costing maintenance and having gradations in road quality finer than just the Engineering movement bonus and rail - yes, the Roman Empire is a great real-world example - but in practice any implementation would skew the game badly.

Don't know if any of you have played this, but Sword of the Stars is a space 4X TBS in which each of the different races has very different methods of travel (one of them can only travel between pre-defined points; another travels very slowly to new points but can instantly travel anywhere they have a gate set up; another just flies wherever the heck it wants at an average speed...). It probably wasn't easy for them to do it, but it is pretty balanced now. Adding variations in movement speed is a great way to make for asymmetric yet balanced games (Starcraft and SC2 are great examples of this as well). I agree it does skew games somewhat though; you can't just change movement and leave everything else identical.
 
No, scale is easily one of the hardest fundamental balances to attempt in a game like civ. Most games, civ included, fudge on it quite a bit just to get something workable.

This is also one of the reasons I really dislike realism arguments for a lot of the gameplay mechanics that are poor for other reasons; while the game loosely follows history in some senses its basic premise and rule-sets are not realistic at all. Eventually, you break reality so that you can actually play a game. Even so, why scale it one way vs another? It's not wrong to question movement, units/tile, scaling of cities vs worked land, etc. Those kinds of things could make the game much better (or worse).

I know you.
I've seen you on the YouTube.
MAN this can be a weird library...

I mostly agree with you about the scale and wholly agree that the whole point of a game is entertainment.

Most of the hot mess I spit out on scale is a result of me using the thing in ways that it wasn't meant for.
For most folks it's less than superfluous to work out how many RPG melee-hexes are in tiles of much larger scale.
Civ's not supposed to be about stuff like that.
<looks in CivV's direction>
That's what I'd call implied in the stuff I'm supposed to put off disbelieving so we can play this thing.
The only reason I messed with it at all was because I plopped CivIV into a bigger game and needed to be able to answer packing problems for really big tiles and whatnot.
However, I think that Civ does have a loose limit to the scale levels that a given tile can represent just by its empire building genera status.
If a melee-hex in a Civ-tile is too small to sweat then there's a lower limit somewhere.
Likewise putting a whole planet in a single tile just doesn't "feel" right either.
There's quite a number of other things the interface and game does to strongly imply that there's some sort of scale assumed from unit animations to increased LoS on hills.
For most of what CivIV does this is perfectly fine.
If you really sat back and sweated it some of the scales don't jibe well but I'm more interested in actually playing rather than working out LoS implied elevations.
As you say that's not important.
On top of that, when running a CivIV turn inside a RPG if a stack with players in it has combat I'm stopping Civ and breaking out Squad Leader (and down to Melee if their squad gets into HtH) to resolve the battle then using World Builder to apply results.
That's cheating by Civ standards and I do lots of it for RPG "campaigns".
But when looking at things from a "mod" perspective I think that having a good idea of the scale your looking at helps inform decisions about what and how much to muck with.
The way I see it a statement like "roads are fundamentally flawed" implies a strong opinion on the assumed scale.
If I were going to mod roads for the RoadWar 2000 example it helps alot to know that I'm using a 40 miles across scale.
It helps inform all sorts of choices from adjusting movement modifiers to how they might look graphically and also can help indicate stuff I might not have considered at first blush.
I know I'm only marking roads that are major highways and these can be a major problem especially around large cities.
As a result secondary routes could be pretty important.
I happen to live at the western end of the Trans-America bike trail (Yorktown VA to Astoria OR) and the Lewis and Clark hiking trail (St. Louis MO to Sunset Beach OR).
As the goal of the "campaign" is to get a scientist from Portland to D.C. both these routes are available for players at the start.
So I looked at what tiles they run through.
Sure enough, for the most part they run through tiles without highways in them.
So would these routes require some kind of road status too or should I just assume that there's always going to be at least one way past a square side that's 40 miles long and use terrain mods for those squares?
If I am mainly using this as a kind of interactive campaign map for tracking player progress in RPG play then I'd probably go a much different way with my choices than I would if I were trying to make a scenario to play in Civ.
What works for one doesn't usually work for the other and the campaign map pretty much just boils down to move 75ish squares in CivIV.
As a playable scenario with some meat to it I'd suspect the moding required would be pretty intense if doable.
So I guess I'm saying that paying attention to scale can help in making design choices and ignoring scale altogether can lead to CivV.
Suspension of disbelief only goes so far... much like the CivIV scale.
 
If you´re talking about realism and suspension of disbelief how come it takes a bunch of warriors 25 years to walk 40 miles at the start of the game?
 
I certainly like the ideas both of roads costing maintenance and having gradations in road quality finer than just the Engineering movement bonus and rail - yes, the Roman Empire is a great real-world example - but in practice any implementation would skew the game badly.

I agree.
I'd never mess with CivIV's gameplay in general.
However some scenario setups could benefit a lot from movement adjustments.
...
Let's see...

CIV4RouteInfos.xml?
CIV4MiscSchema.xml?

CIV4TerrainSchema.xml?
CIV4BonusInfos.xml?
CIV4TerrainInfos.xml?
CIV4TerrainSettings.xml?

-<ElementType content="eltOnly" name="RouteYieldChange"> <element type="RouteType"/> <element type="RouteYields"/>?

Sigh... this could take awhile.
I've not modded CivIV before so it's easier to check adjustments to core concepts like movement with pen and paper methods before I'd ever try a mod but one thing I've already scoped is an advantage to the Americans in off road movement in the American Revolution scenario.

So 1 month turns but what scale is the map at?
51 squares north to south by 40 squares east to west.
A very cursory look at an old atlas suggests the map shows roughly 1200 miles east to west by about 3600 miles north to south.
Hummmm... that works out to a rectangle 70 by 30 miles... guess I'll have to fudge abit... half 70 is 35, half again 30 is 45, and halfway twixt 35 and 45 is 40.
40 mile squares.
Let's check it...
18 squares from Richmond to St Louis... 720ish miles?
Google says 820 but what's a couple of squares between players?
40 mile squares looks like it'll do.
Sometimes the universe likes me.
WAY sometimes...
So what's the old saw?
40 miles a day on beans and hay.
30 squares a month... or turn.
HMS Victory could do 8 knots or about 10mph... 240 in a day (with proper conditions) or 180 squares in a month.
So there's that, but there's lots of ways to nerf the optimum movement rate.
It'll probable take a combination of things to cut things down to only a couple of few squares a turn though, throw more turns at it and up the map size perhaps...
...
Anyway, all of that to mention that I've messed with movement systems where the "locals" don't take negative terrain mods, or at least not as severe as "invaders".
A working ratio might go like this:
Continuous road movement - 1 per sq
Grassland - 2 per sq
Hills - 3 per sq
Forest - 4 per sq

And maybe 0.5 per sq for sailing... who knows?
The Americans might get a +1 in hills and forest...
...
Great... I'm loosing track of time now... someone tell me who wins, I'm gonna get lost in XML...

<starts the coffee>
 
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