Role Play Challenge: A Gentleman of Culture II

[madscientist]

Here's another voice for the chariot rush. Scoring an AI capital early is always a huge boost to your civ. Actually you should have started the rush right from the get-go. It would have been almost certain to succeed.

Even so, I don't think it's too late. Two chariots per archer, four to six total, should be enough and you already have two. You're aggressive, the city is on flat lands, you have a lookout point and the level is Monarch marathon. What more do you want? Ikhandas to reduce corruption in Paris maybe? Send a unit to the hill to the northwest of Paris to scope out the story.

Incidentally, what was the point of researching archers when you had already found horses in the BFC?

The spoiler is a chariot rush before a settler.

Spoiler :

Build order: worker-scout-barracks-warrior-warrior-worker-warrior-chariot-chariot-chariot-chariot-settler. The second scout soon died but the first was superman. As well as learning how to fish, he completely scoped out the continent, gained experience and no less than 292 gold

Once finished, SuperScout went to the hill northwest of Paris to keep an eye on the situation. There were two archers in the city. One warrior stayed home for MP duty. All the rest of the troops went to the southwest, the chariots hiding just out of sight.

When the number of archers in Paris dropped to one, I waited one turn to let the settler-pair get out of range. Then I moved in with everything I had. I lost my first warrior to a panther and the last chariot had just left home so that meant three chariots and a warrior. It was more than enough against a single archer.

As well as the capital, I also scored a worker. Orleans was also a nice city

I won't read the spoiler, but in my experience chariots make poor city defenders. Archery is cheap enough.

 

[Abegweit]

I won't read the spoiler, but in my experience chariots make poor city defenders. Archery is cheap enough.

There is no information in the spoiler which is relevant to the current situation as you have already played past the end of it. Still. Don't read it if you don't want to. I put it in tags just in case you felt this way. But do go check out the situation in Paris. Unless Nappy has jammed in four or more archers, and I really doubt that he has, you can take him out easily - and it will be well worth it.

I agree that chariots suck as defenders, but then why do you want defenders? Warriors are just fine to keep your citizens from whingeing too much. You do need some sort of military in order in order to prevent barbs from attacking and pillaging your lands. Chariots are better than archers for this; they work fine until the swordsmen appear. By then you are going to need some metal.

Actually aggressive warriors (+35% against archers without even counting defensive bonuses) are just fine until the barbs get axes which, at this level, won't be for a long long time. You shouldn't be researching archery even if you have neither horses nor bronze - and you have both, one in the BFC.

 

[madscientist]

There is no information in the spoiler which is relevant to the current situation as you have already played past the end of it. Still. Don't read it if you don't want to. I put it in tags just in case you felt this way. But do go check out the situation in Paris. Unless Nappy has jammed in four or more archers, and I really doubt that he has, you can take him out easily - and it will be well worth it.

I agree that chariots suck as defenders, but then why do you want defenders? Warriors are just fine to keep your citizens from whingeing too much. You do need some sort of military in order in order to prevent barbs from attacking and pillaging your lands. Chariots are better than archers for this; they work fine until the swordsmen appear. By then you are going to need some metal.

Actually aggressive warriors (+35% against archers without even counting defensive bonuses) are just fine until the barbs get axes which, at this level, won't be for a long long time. You shouldn't be researching archery even if you have neither horses nor bronze - and you have both, one in the BFC.

I am definitely a Snaaty convert on archers. Warriors ar egreat for monitoring borders, and very early city manning. Archers get CG I with the Ulandi, plus and extra +50% city defense, and a first strike.

But I agree, Naps should be easy picking providing I get my Chariots off to catch those French settlers. I'll play the enxt round tonight.

 

[Abegweit]

I am definitely a Snaaty convert on archers. Warriors ar egreat for monitoring borders, and very early city manning. Archers get CG I with the Ulandi, plus and extra +50% city defense, and a first strike.

Re-read Snaaty's threads. No offence intended but you clearly misunderstand him. He would not recommend archery in this situation.

First off, he plays Deity (I'm emp and about to move up). The difference between Deity and Monarch is huge in this area. At Diety, you to have to have some sort of defence against the insane number of barbs you get at that level. Either axes or chariots are what you want to have - preferably axes especially since chopping is so important too. At Deity, you get one chance. If you have the prerequisite, you can research either bronze or horses. If you don't find the resource you are looking for in your BFC, you have to go to archers or you are dead.

By this point in his games, there will be plenty of barb archers coming after him. The axes may have started too. So if he didn't get really lucky with his initial research, he has to have archers; they are the only other possibility. But you are playing Monarch. You haven't even had a warrior enter your lands yet - never mind an axeman.

Furthermore, you seem to misunderstand the purpose of his archers too. It is not to cower behind city walls. You have to get them out there in the field. Otherwise you will be pillaged to death. Who cares about CG1? If the enemy gets to your cities, you've already lost. The archer's 25% hill defence is far more important than his city defence bonuses. Chariots and axes are better than archers because they can go to the attack. They don't have to fortify and hope that the barbs are stupid enough to attack instead of going around to pillage.

But I agree, Naps should be easy picking providing I get my Chariots off to catch those French settlers. I'll play the enxt round tonight.

No! Forget the stupid settlers. Take the city! BTW, ever wonder why you haven't seen a settler yet? After all, you have one and the AI does get building bonuses on Monarch too. Wassup wi dat?

 

[madscientist]

Abe, well whether I misunderstand him or not I am not one to ignore the tech for a cheap prime early city defender. Call it an error move but we shall see. The next segment is complete, and well something unforseen has sort of happened. Not what we discussed in these posts earlier. I am building the next Part and will post an update soon, (gulp!).

As far as the settlers not showing up, well it is only 2380 and we got some early workers because of the expansive trait.

Hold on aminute...

 

[madscientist]

Shaka A Gentleman of Culture: Part II

Shaka screams like a mad-man hitting anyone in his path. His shame from the last attempt to prove his cultural superiority still stings his heart. Breathing heavily he grabs the axe and shovel to build chariots himself, "Faster, faster, faster, WE MUST work faster". The next settler groups runs in terror from his view as they look for the first viable settling spot for their bloodthirsty lord's next city.

OK, Shaka is still ticked from the first RPC attempt and boy is looking for a punching bag.

We continue mysticism and finish the settler.

As you can see I went to the closest source. We are not fooling arround this time, Shaka smells French blood!

Very quickly the capital builds more Chariots, 5 with one more we pickup on the way.

Shaka's all chariot force waiting on the outskirts of Paris

However, after teching mysticism I did something quite different, the next tech was horsebackriding (we have archery already). 36 turns rather than 30 for iron working. My reasons are that we can get a 6 strength unit that can keep pace with the Zulu UU. Plus they can be built right away. Why do this for the annoying French? Because I am not stopping there.

3 poorly promoted french archers are no match for 6 ikandi promoted chariots

Yes, the chariot rush was a success. Thanks to all for the suggestion instead of waiting for axes!

Napolean had only 1 other city, which we directed several chariots against.

And very soon

We burn Lyons to the grouhd. The little general is dead. I am sure many you are cheering in the streets.

Our tech path continues with Pottery/writing/Masonry

Tokugawa is closer than we origionally thought, and with horsearchers at our disposal and not a sight of a Japanese chariot or axe, we decided

To send a rather small stack against Toku while we build the real invasion army.

First we take and burn Osaka

We then attacked a newly settled city to the south which did not even have a cultural defense yet.

Toku is down to two cities, the capital and Tokyo

we surround The capital with Impi, axes, chariots and most importantly horsa archers

And very quickly

The site of our third legendary city!!!!!

OK, who out there say HAs are a crappy unit. 6 stength with that rapid movement, for a few turns more than IW. PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We took the capital so fast that newly built axes had to be directed towards Tokyo

AFter a brief war

Syanora Tolugawa. Two glorious rush attacks by 1380 BC!!!!

I know we thought of building up for Tolu, but hell if I can nail him early before I have to deal with Samuri all the better all the better.

So the land of our newly conquered continent.

The continent

Ulandi

Paris

And Kyoto

The demographics are interesting

This is what I see, we are behind in tech, but tops in production. That gives us a decent shot at some of the early wonders.

So how to proceed here?

Here's my idea

1) Cottage like hell except for 1 city which is our GP farm

2) I think the capital is a production gold mine, we need to work that foir some wonders. I smell parthenon and SoZ there.

3) We are isolated so teching will be slow.

4) When and if do we wnat to settle the stone and marble resources.

5) What is the fastest path to CoL from where we are? I think caste system is in order

6) Pyramids, OH yeah!!! The stone would help and we can run an unlimited amount of artists with representation for excess science and culture.

OK, let's calm our crazed leader down a bit and entertain him with some culture and happiness. This way when we meet those other uncooth civilization we can show then how classy the Zulus are. Plus they will never know what transpired here, Shaka is a real peaceful guy at heart!!!

 

[Leventis]

Nice job on the double rush there . 5 cities this early means you should probably rebuild for a while yet. I say you should let a border pop claim the stone for you and you could plonk down a filler city there much later. Hard to see what else is near the marble (cows?) from your screenshots but I think you can wait a while to claim it also -- at least until you can afford it. If there is sufficient food near the golds then you could put another down there as it would pay for itself. Again, it's hard to see from your pics. Could you show a map with resources on in your next update? Longterm, you have some really nice cottageable riverside land in the south as well as a bunch of floodplains. Looks like your tech rate will be fine despite the isolation now. Other than that it looks like you have plenty of calendar resources too that should offset the lack of religion.

 

[absimiliard]

Bravo sir.

I fully approve the use of the chariots against Napolean. Isn't it nice how quickly they can hit someone? I'm increasingly fond of them as an early rusher myself.

I had figured you would recover before hitting Tokugawa, but I think I like what you did better. I've thought HA make a decent attacker for a bit, they follow on to your chariot rush particularly well.

Very interested in how you recover from this. I frequently find myself facing the same challenge. I've eaten the continent well before my economy can handle it.

Very interested in how you handle it . . . yes indeed.

-abs

 

[Morgrad]

Very nice! I'm nowhere near as good at the early rush - I played a shadow game and just finished Toku off in 740 AD. I'll make sure not to spoil anything in my recap (which is pretty easy, as I haven't contacted anyone off our island yet, and I have to go to bed!)

Major differences: I have Stonehenge, the GW, and the Pyramids in my capital, all of which are already cranking over 1000-year-old double culture - that's nice! I figured a slower rush (I axe-rushed nappy with axes made exclusively in cities 2 and 3) would allow me to grab some early wonders that would be very beneficial to both getting to Legendary for the capital and for general wondery-usefulness for buildermode once the island is mine.

I wouldn't have chosen a cultural path in a hundred thousand years on this map - which is why I'm finding it really interesting to do so as the RPC. Overall I have to say I'm really, really enjoying shadowing the RPC - I've never played this way and am glad I'm not the one who has to come up with the rules for them.

Getting the needed culture is going to be tough in former-Japan. Two food resources a lot of foodless water. Something tells me that's where the Hermitage is going to have to go for a cultural win.

Anyway, thanks for the experience - I like it a lot. Oh, and I'm really surprised just how completely different our city placement was - I definately went for the goldrush.

 

[Abegweit]

Excellent dude! Not only did you get over your fear of taking out Paris, you also moved on to Target #2 without any prompting whatsoever.

This game is in the bag. Perhaps it's time that you moved up a level?

 

[Killroyan]

Woohooo, what a turnset. Impressive. You already have the two capitals you needed. Now onto CoL quickly to get the maintenance down. And then go culture happy with cottage spamming all over the place. Get the strategic resources first (I believe you have stone and marble) so that is good. But the mids are not gone yet? It is already 1300 bc, so I hope you are able to get that one still. Now lets see an isolated start culture play without cathedrals. I hope the game gets more interesting with another culture hugger on another continent (no news about wonders falling yet?). But darn, what a start.

 

[semirami]

The rules
1) Shaka can only win via culture, all other victoires are left on for the AI (including time).
2) Shaka's first legondary city is his capital. The other 2 must be captured AI capitals
3) Shaka has no problems with religion, but catherdrals are prohibited (unless somehow present after capturing an AI capital). In contrast to HOLY SAL where artists were prohibited and cathedrals emphasized, we are going in the other direction here. The bulk of culture will come from artists, great artists, corps, culture slider, wonders

I have a couple questions:

1st: I want to move the Palace and Ulundi will be no more my capital. But I want to keep Ulundi as one of my Legendary cities. And if it is not allowed, can my new capital become a Legendary city? Or maybe I dont have right to move the Palace at all?

2nd: Cathedrals are prohibited at all, or only in the Legendary cities? Because I want to build one in another city.

 

[grandad1982]

War! Death! Kill!!!! Oh their all dead. Wasn't me govnor. Nice follow up of Toku.

If your thinking beelining CoL, I reckon you should go for currency - I guess with no tech trade partners alpherbet was off any way - as you'll want the markets to bolster your economy.

As for settling the marble you don't need to do that untill your nearly ready to build the GL. No point in stressing your economy more than you have too.

This is a hemisphere map right? Does that mean no more contacts till optics?

On a side topic, I've got so exited about your Rome OCC that I started my first OCC last night! I'm having a go at Peter as his trait combo seems pretty powerfull for the almost enivetable SE OCC seems to demand. Also that extra health is great!

 

[madscientist]

Thank you, thank you all. Shaka takes a large bow in appreciation to the truely intelligent Civfanatics who can see true class.

Part of my goal for this style of game is to show anytime, anywhere a culture win can be obtained. I am looking for heavy emphasis on wonders, artists, and culture boms. Farms in the three legendary cities, cottages in the others. I am real curious how far I can run this cultural game without adjusting the science slider!!!

Alternative rules for Sem

1) The capital may be moved but not to Paris or Kyoto. The new capital must become one of the legendary cities.

2) Cathedrals may be built in any of the non-legendary cities.

In the bag, please!!!!!!!!! This is an RPC game and we know how these can change on the dime with the rules.

Suffice to say that not all that many wonders have fallen, so perhaps no wonder hogs out there.

Also, there are two hemispheres only which means Buddhism/Hinduism/Judaism have been founded there. Here's to wishing for a bunch of Isabellas, Justinians, chucks, sals over there!

 

[bestje]

Also, there are two hemispheres only which means Buddhism/Hinduism/Judaism have been founded there. Here's to wishing for a bunch of Isabellas, Justinians, chucks, sals over there!

or just monty for utter chaos he's still the man

 

[fugazi]

Sexy times! Once you can start plumping down courthouses and ikhanda's everywhere while turning one city into a crazy farmer's community so you can support a whole bunch of merchants you can expand like mad and grab all that nice land

 

[huerfanista]

Well done, Mad Scientist! That's the Shaka we know and love/hate. The real challenge in this game is getting the economy out of the toilet. There were several times in my shadow of this game when I was on the verge of a general strike. It took a while to get things in order. I played a different strat - axe/chariot rush (mostly axes) to knock Napoleon out, then a long break to get solvent and be able to tech halfway decently. Toku had no iron or bronze at all in his third of the continent, so he only had archers. I kept stacks of axes and swords near the iron on his borders. Every time he settled nearby, I DOWed and razed that city. Once I teched construction, I built a gazillion cats and mowed him down (around 700 AD). By that time, he had built lots of towns and plantations for me, so I did no pillaging at all - just put his cities under new management. I'm in the middle of the 16th century now, with triple the score of the nearest rival, a huge tech lead, Ulandi at 75k culture, Paris at 50k, Kyoto at 30k, with 5 GA's saved so far, 1 GM and 1 GE for Sid's and Mining Inc. I plan to sushi spam and run a gazillion artists everywhere. Should be a piece of cake. Currently running 1000 beakers at 50% science and 30% culture. Diplo? Nobody would dare attack me. (My infantry vs grens at best; they're teching astronomy and I'm in the middle of sci meth, heading toward electricity and sushi).

I second the motion to start spamming wonders in that capital. I built about 75% of them so far. SH, GW, Oracle, Mids for sure, Parth, HG, GL, Schwedagon, Sistine especially, etc. Get a couple of GP farms up in those flood plains, and buld a couple of cottage cities. Forget ToA and GLighthouse - being alone on this continent, it's likely that you won't have any foreign trade routes for a looooong time.

I think you need to get the marble and stone hooked up asap if you're going to build wonders - you may have this continent to yourself, but there are others out there and you're not industrious; they will get built by someone. I put my 1st 2 cities (before rushing Nappie) near these 2 resources. In my game, Nobamba was 1s1e of yours so I could claim the stone, copper, and sheep with the 1st border pop (I was building Stonehenge). That limited its future potential, but there are so many city sites in this game and I wanted those resources FAST.

There are 2 decent GP farms - you should eventually build them both. You'll need lots of GArtists without being able to use cathedrals in your capitals. Paris and Tokyo won't be as easy to wonderspam as Ulundi.

Ikandas are very good early courthouses - I'm sure you know to build them in every city asap. They'll really help on this map with the maintenance.

Onward to culture!

 

[semirami]

Alternative rules for Sem

1) The capital may be moved but not to Paris or Kyoto. The new capital must become one of the legendary cities.

2) Cathedrals may be built in any of the non-legendary cities

I won a cultural victory at 1839AD, for about 50K points. I know I could do it better, but it was boring and I played fast. I never used 1). I used 2). I will remember this game, because it was Shaka, without a single melee unit!

I dont want to bother your game, so I will post screenshots and the saved game, when you win(I know you will).

 

[madscientist]

Hue, I all for shadowing the game. But any observations dating after my post please place in spoilers. I do realize I am probably isolated at this point but still not 100% (If you remeber the Persians in Space game, I thought I was for a bit but found Sal real close by).

 

[Artichoker]

Great job with the fast conquest, now that the entire continent is conquered at such an early time!

I wouldn't worry about the isolated position. You should concentrate on a few areas:

1) Access to all important resources on the continent.

2) An early start to your culture growth for the 3 future legendary cities.

3) Early contact with other civs to allow trade to happen.


If you have a lot of resources and contact with some rival civs, those excess resources can easily be put to good use.

Also, use the barbarian cities and units as practice grounds and practice targets for your military units. You'd still want to have the ability to make West Point, just in case.