Romani Civilization? Feasible? Controversial?

[PhoenicianGold]

Actually, some of those names in the eureka pedia are more generalized. But I scrolled through that long research document in the population article to get a more accurate and complete list. It's on page 239 of this document: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file/show/Romanias-Roma-Research.pdf

Leader: Stefan Razvan

Capital: Razvan/Iasi (Razvanii?)

City/Clan List (sorted by population size):

• Vătraşii
• Căldărarii
• Rudarii
• Spoitorii
• Mătăsarii
• Ursarii
• Cărămidarii
• Gaborii
• Florarii
• Lăutarii
• Ciubotarii
• Argintarii
• Pieptăanarii
• Corturarii - noted as being nomads so maybe we should exclude them
• Lăieşii
• Cocalarii
• Tismănarii
• Fulgarii
• Zlătarii
• Cositorarii
• Răcarii
• Bidinerii
• Geambaşii
• Ciurarii

And, additional clan names which exist but did not make the poll (sorted roughly by prominence in a Google search):

• Lingurarii
  
• Salahorii
  
• Kovachii
• Sfirnarii
• Sitarii
  
• Potcovarii
• Kirpachii
  
• Mestere-Lacatuchii

In Romanian, the second "i" indicates plural, so the name of a house is "Gabori," while people of/from the house are "Gaborii."

This was taken from a poll of 1804 Romanian Romani. Of these, 428 did not identify with a specific clan but as generalized ethnicities. But I think it's probably the most accurate and focused list of tribes assembled from any region so I'm all for using it as a city list. As I also mentioned, Romania has the highest population of Romani and is basically their European region of origin/point of divergence, so I'm even more convinced that we should focus representation to Romania.

Also, I made a thing for you Greywulf!

 

[Greywulf]

I'm glad to see we're mostly in agreement on luei's ideas. See above for my specific comments. I think leui is on to something with the vardo as a civilian unit that would grant benefits when stationed in your own city. Functions like a unique improvement, but it can move. I think an amenities bonus is a given. And as noted above, I think it should grant 1 trade route for the city it is positioned in, to encourage building "caravans" of vardo to be stationed in your cities to maintain your population and trade routes. As an added consequence, if you never max out your trade routes or are fine losing them, you can just move your caravan to another city and build some more trade routes there.

This is coming along surprisingly fast! I'm really glad you are all so enthusiastic about something that I wasn't even sure could work in VI.


I very much like this idea. Seems a fitting way to represent the diversity of the Roma without bringing too much focus to some of their impoverished settlements.

I have a shortlist of tribe names here taken from a Romanian poll:

This I think is an elegant start, given that

Here is an article that lists a bunch of family names from various studies: http://www.refworld.org/docid/3df4be9c20.html; It seems most last names are just their trades, which wouldn't be that offensive either. Those same names and others seem to have been consolidated here: http://eurekaencyclopedia.com/index.php/Category:Romani_Clans. The Rumanian Romani seem to have the most consistent tribal structures and naming conventions.

This site gives populations in Romania are as follows: Vătraşii (13.8% of respondents), Căldărarii (5.9%), Rudarii (4.5%), Spoitorii (3.7%), Mătăsarii (3.2%), Ursarii (2.7%), Cărămidarii (1.5%), Gaborii (1.4%) and the Florarii (1.2%). Some of these align with the above list; some seem to be newer or maybe even combined clans. http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/gallery-item/different-roma-tribes
I think it's easiest to limit the city names geographically to Romania, which seems to repeatedly be a region of cultural importance to them, and seems to have the largest overall Romani population, complete with something resembling data and I'd argue the most cohesive identity in the Rumani Romani tribes. And (in a roundabout way) this fills out a part on the TSL map that will likely never be filled by an official Firaxis civ. I think, semantics aside, representing the Romani as belonging to the Romanian region just makes the whole thing coalesce.

I've listed the Rumani Roma tribal names above. They seem to be the most clearly defined although we could feasibly broaden out the list to include other, what the wiki calls them "non-Gypsy" tribes. Now that we know where to look for tribe names, I advocate for just making it a "Romanian Romani" civ. It avoids misrepresenting Romani clans that may not want to identify with the broader Romani culture, and sticks to a pretty safe subset that seems comfortable being lumped together under a Rumani Romani identity.

If we do go this direction and make it specifically a Romanian Romani civ, I further advocate for just reverting back to Stefan as the leader. And then we would have two options for capitals. We could either use the physical capital of Moldavia, Iasi. Or, the idea I like better to fit with this clan theme, is to call the capital Razvan. It seems to have been his last name and therefore in all probability his family/clan name. And it seems to be a Romani term that, although unknown in origin, might roughly translate to "Bringer of Good News."

I'm going to update the post to include these ideas...This is very exciting that we might actually get a mod out of this!

 

[Greywulf]

Also, I made a thing for you Greywulf!

Sweet! Only thing is that the Cree have the dominant color blue, and the lessor color green, so perhaps if we just switched colors and made it dominantly green and the lessor color sky blue?

 

[Greywulf]

I think it's easiest to limit the city names geographically to Romania, which seems to repeatedly be a region of cultural importance to them, and seems to have the largest overall Romani population, complete with something resembling data and I'd argue the most cohesive identity in the Rumani Romani tribes. And (in a roundabout way) this fills out a part on the TSL map that will likely never be filled by an official Firaxis civ. I think, semantics aside, representing the Romani as belonging to the Romanian region just makes the whole thing coalesce.



I've listed the Rumani Roma tribal names above. They seem to be the most clearly defined although we could feasibly broaden out the list to include other, what the wiki calls them "non-Gypsy" tribes. Now that we know where to look for tribe names, I advocate for just making it a "Romanian Romani" civ. It avoids misrepresenting Romani clans that may not want to identify with the broader Romani culture, and sticks to a pretty safe subset that seems comfortable being lumped together under a Rumani Romani identity.

If we do go this direction and make it specifically a Romanian Romani civ, I further advocate for just reverting back to Stefan as the leader. And then we would have two options for capitals. We could either use the physical capital of Moldavia, Iasi. Or, the idea I like better to fit with this clan theme, is to call the capital Razvan. It seems to have been his last name and therefore in all probability his family/clan name. And it seems to be a Romani term that, although unknown in origin, might roughly translate to "Bringer of Good News."

If we are just focusing on the Roma tribe that is in the country Romania, then we can call them the "Roma" instead of "Romani". "Romani" works well for a blob civ title that includes all of the tribes ~ it can technically still be used either way, however if we are not focusing on the broader culture, then Roma might be the right title for this specific civ.

 

[Greywulf]

I've updated the stats for the civ, and included alternate ideas...


Roma Tribe / Romani Nation


Leader: Ștefan Răzvan. (alternatively: Ionel Rotaru)

Leader ability: Romanipen (Romani Spirit). Cities gain +2 loyalty, and +5 loyalty during a Dark Age. Also grants the unique mercenary unit Roma Merc that replaces the horseman. Is unlocked with the Mercenaries civic. When next to a unit of a civilization you have an alliance with, both units gain +5 Strength.

(Sindi are a related ethnic group)

Agenda: Baht da Ladž (Honor and Shame). Likes Civs with Great Artists/Writers/Musicians. Dislikes Civs who conquer City-States.

Civ Bonus: Latcho Drom (Safe Journey). Escorting civilian units with a military unit grants a defence bonus. All units gain additional defence during the opening turns of a war you did not declare.

Unique Unit: Vardo (Civilian unit, replaces Trader). In addition to trade routes generating gold after completing a trade route, they also generate +1 housing and +1 amenities in both cities connected by a domestic trade route. Foreign trade routes provide production to foreign civs.

Unique Building: Romen Theatre (replaces Amphitheater). In addition to amphitheatre abilities, generates additional great writer/artist/musician points and has one extra GW slot and able to accept any GW.

Capital: Razvan (Razvanii?) or Iasi. (alternatively: Šuto Orizari)

City names based on clan names: Vătraşii, Căldărarii, Rudarii, Spoitorii, Mătăsarii, Ursarii, Cărămidarii, Gaborii, Florarii, Lăutarii, Ciubotarii, Argintarii, Pieptăanarii, Lăieşii, Cocalarii, Tismănarii, Fulgarii, Zlătarii, Cositorarii, Răcarii, Bidinerii, Geambaşii, Ciurarii, Lingurarii, Salahorii, Kovachii, Sfirnarii, Sitarii, Potcovarii, Kirpachii, Mestere-Lacatuchii.
City names based on settlements: Sulukule (oldest Romani settlement in Europe), Sacromonte, Ayvansaray, Stolipinovo, Hacıhüsrev, Ayrancılar, Örnekköy, Šangaj, Jarovnice, Alsószentmárton, Strmec Podravski, Bangladeš, Csenyéte, Gilvánfa, Cojasca, Armășești, Slobozia Bradului, Vâlcele, Fakulteta, Tokaito, Nadezhda, Ungra, Brdarica, Letanovský Mlyn, Kerinov Grm, Caneira Montijo, Triana, Nou Barris, Marinkova Bara, Deponija, Buzescu, Depresija, Bolintin-Vale, Goveđi Brod, Jatagan Mala (Other settlements also exist in other parts of the world).

Citizen names: (male) Barsali, Danior, Camlo, Django, Hedji, Merripen, (female) Esmeralda , Charani, Araunya, Ehra, Gildi, Lolli, (male modern) Jardani, Kem, Manfri, Tobar, Vano, Rukeli, (female modern) Kizzy, Dorenia, Fifika, Jeta, Miselda, Tiena.

Colors: Green and sky blue (Earth and sky).

Symbol: Wheel of freedom.

Music: (Apologies for the use of the "G" word in the title of the clip)

So how does that look now? When we are done I plan to share it in the design a civ thread and also in the 2K games forums.

 

[luei333]

Okay! So! Speaking of learning things as I code more, I was just redoing my template a bit, and I noticed that the flags for most of the specific civilian units, like settlers' ability to found cities, and yes, the trader's ability to make trade routes, are just in the Units table in Civ 6, which is actually really nice. I even looked on the workshop and found at least 2 mods that replace the settler with their own version. So, I was wrong! We could do either version of the Vardo, really. If we had them act as traders, we could just restrict the civ from making the heavy chariot? I think that's a thing you can do (I know it works with prophets, I think it can be extended to any unit). As the unique civilian unit, though, we could maybe have an improvement it could make, or have it be able to repair pillaged tiles, or spread religion, I'm just spitballing.

Functions like a unique improvement, but it can move. I think an amenities bonus is a given. And as noted above, I think it should grant 1 trade route for the city it is positioned in, to encourage building "caravans" of vardo to be stationed in your cities to maintain your population and trade routes. As an added consequence, if you never max out your trade routes or are fine losing them, you can just move your caravan to another city and build some more trade routes there.

I'm not sure what you're thinking here. Raising the trade route cap is nation-wide, not city-specific. Moving a caravan of Vardo that grant trade route capacity from city to city would do nothing. Besides, trade route capacity on them is problematic. Trade routes, and amenities too, are very finite resources in the game. Having a unit you can build ad infinitum grant them is game-breaking. Also, I'd like to find some other purpose to Vardo than just cranking them out on every district tile and having them sleep there for eternity; that seems just boring and easily abused. If we made them grant bonuses, or even just more powerful bonuses, in foreign cities, it could be interesting when they go to war with you or something like that. Or have them work with a more fluctuating resource, like loyalty, or amenities but with positive and negative benefits. OR we limit how many the player can build, like 1 Vardo per.... some building? I'm hesitant to add even more to the Romen Theater... I'll be thinking more about it, but for now I need sleep. Also, this is all assuming we have the Vardo as the unique civilian unit, of course.

Also, while design and stuff is my forte, I'm understandably reluctant to just jump in and take over the abilities and stuff. Don't necessarily take what I say as rote, I say a lot of it to just let you guys know what is/isn't possible.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Sweet! Only thing is that the Cree have the dominant color blue, and the lessor color green, so perhaps if we just switched colors and made it dominantly green and the lessor color sky blue?

If we are just focusing on the Roma tribe that is in the country Romania, then we can call them the "Roma" instead of "Romani". "Romani" works well for a blob civ title that includes all of the tribes ~ it can technically still be used either way, however if we are not focusing on the broader culture, then Roma might be the right title for this specific civ.

Sounds good to me. And if there were any risk of confusion with Rome, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it "Romania."

Okay! So! Speaking of learning things as I code more, I was just redoing my template a bit, and I noticed that the flags for most of the specific civilian units, like settlers' ability to found cities, and yes, the trader's ability to make trade routes, are just in the Units table in Civ 6, which is actually really nice. I even looked on the workshop and found at least 2 mods that replace the settler with their own version. So, I was wrong! We could do either version of the Vardo, really. If we had them act as traders, we could just restrict the civ from making the heavy chariot? I think that's a thing you can do (I know it works with prophets, I think it can be extended to any unit). As the unique civilian unit, though, we could maybe have an improvement it could make, or have it be able to repair pillaged tiles, or spread religion, I'm just spitballing.

Okay, so trader is back on the table. I also never considered the possibility of making it a settler unit, which may have design space.

Religion spread wouldn't be a bad bonus to a trader unit. Civilian unit could make a campground I guess, if we focus design more closely to the Roma specifically.

I'm not sure what you're thinking here. Raising the trade route cap is nation-wide, not city-specific. Moving a caravan of Vardo that grant trade route capacity from city to city would do nothing. Besides, trade route capacity on them is problematic. Trade routes, and amenities too, are very finite resources in the game. Having a unit you can build ad infinitum grant them is game-breaking. Also, I'd like to find some other purpose to Vardo than just cranking them out on every district tile and having them sleep there for eternity; that seems just boring and easily abused. If we made them grant bonuses, or even just more powerful bonuses, in foreign cities, it could be interesting when they go to war with you or something like that. Or have them work with a more fluctuating resource, like loyalty, or amenities but with positive and negative benefits. OR we limit how many the player can build, like 1 Vardo per.... some building? I'm hesitant to add even more to the Romen Theater... I'll be thinking more about it, but for now I need sleep. Also, this is all assuming we have the Vardo as the unique civilian unit, of course.

Ah, brain fart. Of course it's nation-wide.

The foreign cities thing feels like it violates Romanipen, not to mention is very similar to Mongolia's M.O. Maybe with the religion concept above but beyond that I don't seen much motivation for a Romani civ to travel to foreign cities. A bonus for traveling between your own cities seems more in flavor.

Maybe it's as simple as building off of a concept where a vardo trader grants an amenity to both cities on domestic trade routes?

Also, while design and stuff is my forte, I'm understandably reluctant to just jump in and take over the abilities and stuff. Don't necessarily take what I say as rote, I say a lot of it to just let you guys know what is/isn't possible.

Your input has been greatly appreciated! And you seem to have some really cool ideas that extend beyond basic modding mechanics.

 

[Greywulf]

Perfect! I've updated the civ post to include this.

Sounds good to me. And if there were any risk of confusion with Rome, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it "Romania."

Actually I feel strongly that it would be a stretch to call a Roma/Romani civ "Romania". They really are not at all the same thing but completely different ethnicities that seldom got along (the Romanians did force them into slavery for a time, and now still some Romanians treat them with extreme prejudice), and it will definitely be controversial to call a Roma civ "Romania"; unnecessarily controversial.

Okay, so trader is back on the table. I also never considered the possibility of making it a settler unit, which may have design space.

Religion spread wouldn't be a bad bonus to a trader unit. Civilian unit could make a campground I guess, if we focus design more closely to the Roma specifically.

The Romani weren't really known to spread religion. Actually they often adopted the religion of the region they ended up living in (perhaps some kept some old ideas from Hinduism? I'd like to know if that carried thru at all, that would be interesting), and due to intermarriage, lots of Sinti adopted Judaism ~ by the time of WW2 there was a significant population of Jewish Sinti living in Europe, so much so that the Fascist Germans organized a group of people to locate and inform on Jewish Sinti people.

Ah, brain fart. Of course it's nation-wide.

The foreign cities thing feels like it violates Romanipen, not to mention is very similar to Mongolia's M.O. Maybe with the religion concept above but beyond that I don't seen much motivation for a Romani civ to travel to foreign cities. A bonus for traveling between your own cities seems more in flavor.

Maybe it's as simple as building off of a concept where a vardo trader grants an amenity to both cities?

Not to worry, such an ability involving foreign cities would hardly violate Romanipen. The Romani were good at retaining their own culture despite living in other nation's cities, so this shouldn't be a problem. We just need to work out a good ability for the Vardo that relates to this that benefits both the foreign city and the Roma civ. As mentioned earlier in this thread, amenities would be a good benefit for the friendly foreign city, but religion spread I don't think should be involved...If anything the Roma would be picking up on the foreign religion, rather than the other way around ~ that is how it was historically. Maybe in harmony with Romanipen, the Vardo can generate loyalty while in foreign cities, as they strived to keep their culture when they were surrounded by foreign culture. What do you think of that? Although we have already given them a loyalty boost, and an extra loyalty boost during Dark Ages, so we don't want to give them too much loyalty.

 

[JamesFaith]

Okay, so trader is back on the table. I also never considered the possibility of making it a settler unit, which may have design space.

Religion spread wouldn't be a bad bonus to a trader unit. Civilian unit could make a campground I guess, if we focus design more closely to the Roma specifically.

The Romani weren't really known to spread religion. Actually they often adopted the religion of the region they ended up living in (perhaps some kept some old ideas from Hinduism? I'd like to know if that carried thru at all, that would be interesting), and due to intermarriage, lots of Sinti adopted Judaism ~ by the time of WW2 there was a significant population of Jewish Sinti living in Europe, so much so that the Fascist Germans organized a group of people to locate and inform on Jewish Sinti people.

They werenť known for religion but they were known as, how to say it, "small artisans" - mostly tinkering, then some jewellery, smithing...

So what about some production bonus instead religion?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The Romani weren't really known to spread religion. Actually they often adopted the religion of the region they ended up living in (perhaps some kept some old ideas from Hinduism? I'd like to know if that carried thru at all, that would be interesting), and due to intermarriage, lots of Sinti adopted Judaism ~ by the time of WW2 there was a significant population of Jewish Sinti living in Europe, so much so that the Fascist Germans organized a group of people to locate and inform on Jewish Sinti people.

Okay, so let's set aside religion.

Not to worry, such an ability involving foreign cities would hardly violate Romanipen. The Romani were good at retaining their own culture despite living in other nation's cities, so this shouldn't be a problem. We just need to work out a good ability for the Vardo that relates to this that benefits both the foreign city and the Roma civ. As mentioned earlier in this thread, amenities would be a good benefit for the friendly foreign city, but religion spread I don't think should be involved...If anything the Roma would be picking up on the foreign religion, rather than the other way around ~ that is how it was historically. Maybe in harmony with Romanipen, the Vardo can generate loyalty while in foreign cities, as they strived to keep their culture when they were surrounded by foreign culture. What do you think of that? Although we have already given them a loyalty boost, and an extra loyalty boost during Dark Ages, so we don't want to give them too much loyalty.

Loyalty where and to whom? Each city has its own loyalty score. So either the only loyalty you'd be affecting is the foreign city's loyalty to its own civ, or you'd be generating positive loyalty for the Romani with no apparent city to receive the benefit.

It still feels very similar to Mongolia, not to mention portrays them as "invasive" which I'm not sure would go over very well. Plus they already have the merc unit to interact with ally civs, but not much mechanical incentive so far to "keep to themselves." I'm leaning more toward making the vardo unit a trader that grants +1 housing/amenity to both cities it connects with a domestic trade route.

It would encourage building domestic trade routes (representing traveling from one Roma settlement to another) more than foreign trade routes, which the Romani don't really need more incentive to build since the merc unit acts as a pseudo-diplomatic unit. It would also limit the number of vardo you can build to however many trade routes you would already have built anyway. And as a consequence, the number of amenity bonuses a city can get are strictly limited, thematically tied to the Romani's primary source of development (trading services), *and* treat the vardo as a "quasi-house improvement." It would just be an improvement that happens to always be "moving," even if it is along set paths and doesn't actually have any adjacency or terrain interactions.

If even with these limitations this is still too OP, we could refine it a bit; I'm trying to shoot for something on power level with the golf course.

 

[Greywulf]

They werenť known for religion but they were known as, how to say it, "small artisans" - mostly tinkering, then some jewellery, smithing...

So what about some production bonus instead religion?

This could work, and is quite fitting too. How would you implement this though?

Okay, so let's set aside religion.

Loyalty where and to whom? Each city has its own loyalty score. So either the only loyalty you'd be affecting is the foreign city's loyalty to its own civ, or you'd be generating positive loyalty for the Romani with no apparent city to receive the benefit.

It still feels very similar to Mongolia, not to mention portrays them as "invasive" which I'm not sure would go over very well. Plus they already have the merc unit to interact with ally civs, but not much mechanical incentive so far to "keep to themselves." I'm leaning more toward making the vardo unit a trader that grants +1 housing/amenity to both cities it connects with a domestic trade route.

It would encourage building domestic trade routes (representing traveling from one Roma settlement to another) more than foreign trade routes, which the Romani don't really need since the merc unit acts as a pseudo-diplomatic unit. It would also limit the number of vardo you can build to however many trade routes you would already have built anyway. And as a consequence, the number of amenity bonuses a city can get are strictly limited, thematically tied to the Romani's primary source of development (trading services), *and* treat the vardo as a "quasi-house" unit just like all of the other amenity-granting improvements do. It would just be an amenity improvement that happens to always be "moving," even if it is along set paths and doesn't actually have any adjacency or terrain interactions.

If even with these limitations this is still too OP, we could refine it a bit; I'm trying to shoot for something on power level with the golf course.

So replacing the Trader unit? To me that makes sense. So we have a few possibilities with this...

Trade routes with Vardo units give a bonus with Amenities, or Production, or Culture, or a combination of these things, plus gold. What would be ideal? Remember that we want trade routes to produce culture as part of their abilities, and the Roma civ will be aiming for culture victory.

 

[Greywulf]

~ Should we switch the UU and LA a bit? As in make the Roma Merc their official UU, and make the Vardo trade routes part of the LA?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

So replacing the Trader unit? To me that makes sense. So we have a few possibilities with this...

Trade routes with Vardo units give a bonus with Amenities, or Production, or Culture, or a combination of these things, plus gold. What would be ideal? Remember that we want trade routes to produce culture as part of their abilities, and the Roma civ will be aiming for culture victory.

Okay, how about this?

Vardo - generates gold after completing a trade route. Generates +1 housing/production in both cities connected by a domestic trade route.

~ Should we switch the UU and LA a bit? As in make the Roma Merc their official UU, and make the Vardo trade routes part of the LA?

I don't think so. If anything the leader trade route bonus doesn't feel quite as resonant and should be replaced by something more merc-ish. The loyalty mechanic actually feels more in line with a leader bonus.

Latcho Drom - escorted or adjacent units gain additional defense. All units gain additional defense in the opening turns of a war you did not declare.

Stefan Razvan

King of the Roma - Cities gain +2 loyalty, and +5 loyalty during a Dark Age. Also grants the leader unique unit Roma Merc which grants and receives +5 strength when adjacent to ally units.

Romanipen - still good as is.

 

[Greywulf]

Okay, how about this?

Vardo - generates gold after completing a trade route. Generates +1 housing/production in both cities connected by a domestic trade route.

Ok, I'll edit this in. Should it just be limited to domestic trade tho? As many nations benefited from Romani workmanship/trade.

I don't think so. If anything the leader trade route bonus doesn't feel quite as resonant and should be replaced by something more merc-ish. The loyalty mechanic actually feels more in line with a leader bonus.

Latcho Drom - escorted or adjacent units gain additional defense. All units gain additional defense in the opening turns of a war you did not declare.

Stefan Razvan

King of the Roma - Cities gain +2 loyalty, and +5 loyalty during a Dark Age. Also grants the leader unique unit Roma Merc which grants and receives +5 strength when adjacent to ally units.

Romanipen - still good as is.

I thought the loyalty bonus during Dark Ages was based on enduring the Porajmos (Holocaust)?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Ok, I'll edit this in. Should it just be limited to domestic trade tho? As many nations benefited from Romani workmanship/trade.

I'm not sure why the Romani civ should be the only one that *has* to give other civs perks for trading with them.

However, it does give me an interesting idea of using benefits to other civs as a way of disincentivizing foreign trade routes. So, how about this?

Vardo - trade routes generate gold upon completion. Domestic trade routes provide +1 housing and +1 production to each city. Foreign trade routes provide tourism to other civs.

That way, they can still make foreign trade routes to receive gold and resources, but they do so at the cost of boosting the culture and/or tourism of civs they trade with.

I haven't decided if it should be culture or tourism, though. Culture would represent giving them art, whereas Tourism would represent losing "freedom" as Roma integrated. Culture would be competing directly with the Roma and making their cultural victory harder since they're also a culture-based civ, whereas Tourism would work better as a counterbalance (the more culture you make and let other civs appropriate, the more prestige you create for them). I'm leaning toward tourism since it doesn't impose as direct a handicap on the Romani.

I thought the loyalty bonus during Dark Ages was based on enduring the Porajmos (Holocaust)?

It was, but really Porajmos is the opposite of "Safe travels," and looking at it more it feels weird to box the Romani into an ability that seems to contradict itself: "you're safe in numbers, but only during the worst times." Plus, the Porajmos is but one of many "dark ages" for the Romani, and another of those was their enslavement in Romania. So I think that concept is a little more flexible to be reassigned to other abilities.

I think it's fine to make a nod to the Porajmos, but it's probably the lowest on my priority list. as I said before, we should avoid any direct, obvious mention of the Porajmos, for the same reasons that the Cree don't focus on their systemic abuse by Canada. I think it's fine to generally portray a civ as rebellious like with the Mapuche, but encapsulating their identity by a specific atrocity is reductionist. It says "we couldn't think of anything else, so we just went with Nazis" (ahem, Netherlands), especially when the civ clearly has more influential constructive aspects of its history that deserve focus.

As long as there is a general dark age/loyalty bonus in there somewhere, I think that's all the reference to genocide we need. So I'd just put it with the mercenary, which is also a mechanic that represents Roma loyalty in a different way. Loyalty just doesn't seem to have anything to do with caravan bonuses.

I finally listened to the music you chose. It's delightful. Excellent choice.

 

[Greywulf]

I'm not sure why the Romani civ should be the only one that *has* to give other civs perks for trading with them.

However, it does give me an interesting idea of using benefits to other civs as a way of disincentivizing foreign trade routes. So, how about this?

Vardo - trade routes generate gold upon completion. Domestic trade routes provide +1 housing and +1 production to each city. Foreign trade routes provide tourism to other civs.

That way, they can still make foreign trade routes to receive gold and resources, but they do so at the cost of boosting the culture and/or tourism of civs they trade with.

I haven't decided if it should be culture or tourism, though. Culture would represent giving them art, whereas Tourism would represent losing "freedom" as Roma integrated. Culture would be competing directly with the Roma and making their cultural victory harder since they're also a culture-based civ, whereas Tourism would work better as a counterbalance (the more culture you make and let other civs appropriate, the more prestige you create for them). I'm leaning toward tourism since it doesn't impose as direct a handicap on the Romani.

As mentioned, many nations benefited from Romani trade and workmanship, so if it is to only benefit the other civ then wouldn't it be more realistic to go for production? Otherwise they could both be benefiting from the trade. Not sure on this yet...

It was, but really Porajmos is the opposite of "Safe travels," and looking at it more it feels weird to box the Romani into an ability that seems to contradict itself: "you're safe in numbers, but only during the worst times." Plus, the Porajmos is but one of many "dark ages" for the Romani, and another of those was their enslavement in Romania. So I think that concept is a little more flexible to be reassigned to other abilities.

I think it's fine to make a nod to the Porajmos, but it's probably the lowest on my priority list. as I said before, we should avoid any direct, obvious mention of the Porajmos, for the same reasons that the Cree don't focus on their systemic abuse by Canada. I think it's fine to generally portray a civ as rebellious like with the Mapuche, but encapsulating their identity by a specific atrocity is reductionist. It says "we couldn't think of anything else, so we just went with Nazis" (ahem, Netherlands), especially when the civ clearly has more influential constructive aspects of its history that deserve focus.

As long as there is a general dark age/loyalty bonus in there somewhere, I think that's all the reference to genocide we need. So I'd just put it with the mercenary, which is also a mechanic that represents Roma loyalty in a different way. Loyalty just doesn't seem to have anything to do with caravan bonuses.

I finally listened to the music you chose. It's delightful. Excellent choice.

It would feel wrong to deliberately avoid any mention of the Porajmos at all, but that can be solved by it being talked about in the Civilopedia. It doesn't have to be mentioned within their UX or intro, but I feel that it should be mentioned somewhere.
That being said, Safe Travels (Latcho Drom) can be regarding their more general history, or even to do with earlier history instead.

We could use the term Romanipen in reference to the loyalty bonus rather than the Agenda...Actually that would make better sense to me, given what loyalty does. Latcho Drom does fit very well with the defencive bonus.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

As mentioned, many nations benefited from Romani trade and workmanship, so if it is to only benefit the other civ then wouldn't it be more realistic to go for production? Otherwise they could both be benefiting from the trade. Not sure on this yet...

Production works thematically as well. Or amenities. It's basically a toss-up, given that the translations of the clan names can fall on either end of the necessity/luxury spectrum:

• Necessities - tinners, sharpeners, ironworkers, blacksmiths, ferriers, house builders
  
• Somewhere in the middle - cutlery, utensils, locksmiths, animal trainers
• Amenities - goldwashers, BEAR TRAINERS (!)

So...I guess we have options depending on how powerful we want the bonus to be. Production would be a moderate bonus to foreign cities. Amenities would be a major bonus.

It would feel wrong to deliberately avoid any mention of the Porajmos at all, but that can be solved by it being talked about in the Civilopedia. It doesn't have to be mentioned within their UX or intro, but I feel that it should be mentioned somewhere.
That being said, Safe Travels (Latcho Drom) can be regarding their more general history, or even to do with earlier history instead.

We could use the term Romanipen in reference to the loyalty bonus rather than the Agenda...Actually that would make better sense to me, given what loyalty does. Latcho Drom does fit very well with the defencive bonus.

Yes, description seems an excellent compromise on that.

So:

Latcho Drom - escorted or adjacent units gain additional defense. All units gain additional defense in the opening turns of a war you did not declare.

Stefan Razvan

Romanipen - Cities gain +2 loyalty, and +5 loyalty during a Dark Age. Also grants the leader unique unit Roma Merc which grants and receives +5 strength when adjacent to ally units.

Baht da ladž - Likes Civs with Great Artists/Writers/Musicians. Dislikes Civs who conquer City-States.

Literally translates to "honor and shame." The foundational pillar of Romani ethics. It carries the spirit of a Kris while keeping things Disney.

I removed the "indifferent" part since it doesn't really fit with something that isn't called Romanipen. I think it still works for Stefan.

 

[Greywulf]

Production works thematically as well. Or amenities. It's basically a toss-up, given that the translations of the clan names can fall on either end of the necessity/luxury spectrum:

• Necessities - tinners, sharpeners, ironworkers, blacksmiths, ferriers, house builders
  
• Somewhere in the middle - cutlery, utensils, locksmiths, animal trainers
• Amenities - goldwashers, BEAR TRAINERS (!)

So...I guess we have options depending on how powerful we want the bonus to be. Production would be a moderate bonus to foreign cities. Amenities would be a major bonus.

Alright, I think we should go with production for foreign cities, and amenities for domestic cities. Sound good?

Amenities - goldwashers, BEAR TRAINERS (!)

Yes, that's what my clan did.

Yes, description seems an excellent compromise on that.

So:

Latcho Drom - escorted or adjacent units gain additional defense. All units gain additional defense in the opening turns of a war you did not declare.

Stefan Razvan

Romanipen - Cities gain +2 loyalty, and +5 loyalty during a Dark Age. Also grants the leader unique unit Roma Merc which grants and receives +5 strength when adjacent to ally units.

Baht da ladž - Likes Civs with Great Artists/Writers/Musicians. Dislikes Civs who conquer City-States.

Literally translates to "honor and shame." The foundational pillar of Romani ethics. It carries the spirit of a Kris while keeping things Disney.

I removed the "indifferent" part since it doesn't really fit with something that isn't called Romanipen. I think it still works for Stefan.

Looks good. I'll make the adjustments to the civ post...
Will Latcho Drom be the leader ability rather than "King of the Roma"? Have a look at the updated post and see if it's all working.

After this, I think it is ready to share in other threads/forums.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Alright, I think we should go with production for foreign cities, and amenities for domestic cities. Sound good?

Yes to production for foreign cities. I'd choose housing over amenities for domestic, but maybe we can do +1 housing and +1 amenities for domestic cities. I'd leave it to luei to decide whether housing, amenities, or both is better balanced.

Yes, that's what my clan did.

Noice.

Looks good. I'll make the adjustments to the civ post...
Will Latcho Drom be the leader ability rather than "King of the Roma"? Have a look at the updated post and see if it's all working.

After this, I think it is ready to share in other threads/forums.

Ah, I guess I misunderstood you before. I still think that a second unique unit and anything revolving around hiring and loyalty feels more like a leader ability than a civ ability. I also think that, purely as a matter of framing, it's easier to sell the concept of any Romani leader if they have the ability "Romanipen."

Conversely, I think "safe travels" and caravan culture are conceptually more representative of the Roma specifically. So I would probably make Romanipen the leader ability and Latcho Drom the civ bonus, although the argument I admit is mostly based on presentation and the fact that it's easier to argue a militaristic ability for a Roma leader rather than a cultural ability.

Beyond that, I think it's ready to go, assuming luei doesn't find any balance issues.

 

[Greywulf]

Yes to production for foreign cities. I'd choose housing over amenities for domestic, but maybe we can do +1 housing and +1 amenities for domestic cities. I'd leave it to luei to decide whether housing, amenities, or both is better balanced.



Noice.



Ah, I guess I misunderstood you before. I still think that a second unique unit and anything revolving around hiring and loyalty feels more like a leader ability than a civ ability. I also think that, purely as a matter of framing, it's easier to sell the concept of any Romani leader if they have the ability "Romanipen."

Conversely, I think "safe travels" and caravan culture are conceptually more representative of the Roma specifically. So I would probably make Romanipen the leader ability and Latcho Drom the civ bonus, although the argument I admit is mostly based on presentation and the fact that it's easier to argue a militaristic ability for a Roma leader rather than a cultural ability.

Beyond that, I think it's ready to go, assuming luei doesn't find any balance issues.

Great! Ok, I've switched the Civ bonus with the LA, so it looks like we are all ready.

Also I'll adjust the domestic trade to +1 housing and +1 amenities.