I understand why the Romani and Cree and similar peoples don't like having their civilization in a game like Civ 6, there's plenty of arguments against it. But, like with the Cree, I think recognition is important. Like Greywulf said, there's plenty that can be gained by their inclusion. I wish Firaxis was making a Romani civ, because they would do it as much justice as they could, including music, architecture, etc. that's very representative of their culture, like they did with the Cree. They would work with community leaders and get it right. And I absolutely disagree on your point that AAA games shouldn't be used to fight racism and social issues. Video games are part of our culture, they're not just entertainment. There are plenty of people who have never heard of civilizations, or leaders, or buildings, or music, that appear in Civ games. And there are so many people playing this game, and every AAA game, I feel the developers have at least somewhat of a moral obligation to said things right, to present them in as accurate and positive light as possible. If a Civ game came out, but was made from an Americanized view of the world, getting so many things wrong, people would hate it, and rightly so. I think the uproar about the Cree's inclusion is a good thing, but I also think their inclusion in the game is a good thing. Things aren't black and white, good and bad. The Civ series may be inaccurate in some places, or incomplete in their history and mechanics, but in the end, they expose a lot more people to history that they would never have learned about, in a way that is much more digestible than a 1000-page textbook.
Romani Civilization? Feasible? Controversial?
- Thread starter PhoenicianGold
- Start date
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
Before the inclusion of the Cree in Civ VI, most non-First Nations people who have heard of them were Canadians who learned about the Cree in middle school, such as myself.
Now, much more people have heard of them.
Now, much more people have heard of them.
Corozivu
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 76
As someone who lives in Iași and is not a gypsy I am confused as to why out of all the cities mine would be the capital of the gypsy nation . If you insist on using it please use the correct spelling for the city and the leader Ștefan Răzvan and Iași .
I am using the g word because in Romania the word we have is țigan and even though a law was passed that basically replaced this word with rrom (in media at least ) many romani people didnt agree with their new official „designation” and liked being called țigan.The word we use in Romanian is rrom singular and rromi plural, yes with two „r”. Rom with one r means rum . The law was passed because over the years the word țigan and other words like țiganeală(doing things the gypsy way) have gained a pejorative meaning and would have impeded the process of integrating their etnicity in Romanian society.
In the eyes of most Romanians gypsies have/had three leaders : The International King of Gypsies Florin Tănase Cioabă(1954-2013) who is Penticostal (yes , its relevant) , „Emperor of the romani people from all around the world” Iulian Rădulescu(1938-2017) and The Christian King of all Christian Romanis Ilie Badea Stănescu (1952-2007) who was crowned king by orthodox priests at Curtea de Arges (where the Romanian royal family is entombed) with the „blessing” of the emperor of the gypsies in repsonse to International Kings of Gypsies succes as he was atracting many gypsies to the penticostal faith. All three are dead and I only know of the descendats of the first one to have ”inherited” the crown but i assume all three families have continued the tradition. Ive tried to translate their titles as accurate as posible but even if I have failed I can assure you their are as pompous as they sound.
[QUOTE="
In Romanian, the second "i" indicates plural, so the name of a house is "Gabori," while people of/from the house are "Gaborii."
[/QUOTE]
Gabor is singular , Gabori is plural whereas in Gaborii the second i would equate to „the” in english. So A Gabor / Un Gabor and the gabor / gaborul for singular -- gabors / gabori and the gabors / gaborii for plural. . So someone from that house is a gabor , somebody in particular from that clan would be gaborul and so on. This is for the nominative case alone. Also in Romanian slang gabor means policeman even though its probably not relevant being only an example.
I am using the g word because in Romania the word we have is țigan and even though a law was passed that basically replaced this word with rrom (in media at least ) many romani people didnt agree with their new official „designation” and liked being called țigan.The word we use in Romanian is rrom singular and rromi plural, yes with two „r”. Rom with one r means rum . The law was passed because over the years the word țigan and other words like țiganeală(doing things the gypsy way) have gained a pejorative meaning and would have impeded the process of integrating their etnicity in Romanian society.
In the eyes of most Romanians gypsies have/had three leaders : The International King of Gypsies Florin Tănase Cioabă(1954-2013) who is Penticostal (yes , its relevant) , „Emperor of the romani people from all around the world” Iulian Rădulescu(1938-2017) and The Christian King of all Christian Romanis Ilie Badea Stănescu (1952-2007) who was crowned king by orthodox priests at Curtea de Arges (where the Romanian royal family is entombed) with the „blessing” of the emperor of the gypsies in repsonse to International Kings of Gypsies succes as he was atracting many gypsies to the penticostal faith. All three are dead and I only know of the descendats of the first one to have ”inherited” the crown but i assume all three families have continued the tradition. Ive tried to translate their titles as accurate as posible but even if I have failed I can assure you their are as pompous as they sound.
[QUOTE="
In Romanian, the second "i" indicates plural, so the name of a house is "Gabori," while people of/from the house are "Gaborii."
[/QUOTE]
Gabor is singular , Gabori is plural whereas in Gaborii the second i would equate to „the” in english. So A Gabor / Un Gabor and the gabor / gaborul for singular -- gabors / gabori and the gabors / gaborii for plural. . So someone from that house is a gabor , somebody in particular from that clan would be gaborul and so on. This is for the nominative case alone. Also in Romanian slang gabor means policeman even though its probably not relevant being only an example.
It would seem that the "G" word is similar to "țigan" in derogatory use then. Romani people are not in universal agreement on which term to use, and there are some who are comfortable using such terms themselves, however the majority do not like such terms and are even offended by them, due to their derogatory use and the fact that it represents misconception and stereotypes. Another term to be careful with is "Zigeuner", which is derived from a term meaning "untouchable", as in the lowest caste in Hinduism (this is actually the German translation of "țigan"). Additionally it was the term that the Nazis used when referring to Romani people, so it is considered a racist term. Even if some Romani people reject the term "Rrom", at least we know that it is not a racial slur, and it is a Romany term rather than an outside term.
Thank you for your insight, by the way. Which city would you say would best suit for a capital for the Romani Nation (or Roma Tribe specifically), especially with Ștefan Răzvan as their leader?
And out of the three modern leaders you listed, which one would you think is the best choice, and why? (Personally I would prefer not using a modern leader, but a more ancient one)
Corozivu
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 76
If you want to use Ștefan Răzvan because he was voievod (prince) of Moldova then Iași would be the right choice since it was the capital of Moldova at that time.
As for the more ancient leader option as far as I know gypsies were slaves in Romania until we obtained our independence in 1881. During the negotiations(for the Berlin and San Stefano treaties) we were forced to release all the slaves and give jewish people the right to attain citizenship amongst other things. To be more precise we were obligated to put that in our new consittution , laws that outlawed slavery had existed since 1855 and 1856 So overnight they became „free”. Slaves that belonged to one of the clans that you mentioned adapted as they had a skill set and even though they werent accepted as equals they could earn a living and even prosper. Most gypsies were church slaves, boyar slaves and city slaves . The Romanian gypsies that are now being a nuissance all through Europe are descendants of those slaves , those who didnt have a craft to fall back on So I dont think you can have an ancient leader because they werent given the oppurtunity to organize themselves to a larger scale until then since they were slaves. Then there were the two world wars , one of them being especially bad for them, and 50ish years of communism so not a very good couple of decades to emancipate themselves. Gypsy history isnt exactly a hot topic in the school curriculums or in college ones so there might be more to this that I am not aware of.
Out of the three I have mentioned you can go for the penticostal one for a pan-romani approach or with the christian king for a more religious localized approach since he was used by the R.O.C. (Romanian Orthodox Church). I dont know anything else about them to rate them in any objective way. As a republican this whole king emperor thing... I just cant take it seriously enough to care. Under the banner of the E.U. there are a few organizations that fight for their rights so maybe you can find further info that way.
As a word of warning if you dont make a clear distinction between romani and romanian you will get a lot of „comments” from right wing nutters.
Thank you for explaining that, although as a member of the Sinti tribe I personally feel uncomfortable with the continued use of the "G" word.
I guess we will stick with Iași as their capital then, as it does seem like Ștefan Răzvan is one of the best options anyway, but especially if we are focusing on the Roma tribe. This is a bit like finding a leader for African Americans during the time of slavery, I think. As for finding an ancient leader alternative, we could possibly either go back to before the Romani had entered Europe, or we could look at the other tribes, as it was mostly the Roma tribe that were under the slavery. That being said, I am happy with the Ștefan Răzvan choice.
orasis
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2006
- Messages
- 441
Dude... it's a game. I'd rather not my games take a 'stand' for anything. The reason we play games is to escape reality. Racism to me is sort of funny... like is it a surprise that most people are butt-holes? It's always been that way and always will be. Do you think dumb people even think about strategy games? At all?
Fighting racism in video games and sci-fi/fanatsy stuff is a waste of time. You know why? The majority people who get absorbed into these things are racial idealists. They do not identify with who we are - but what we could be. Just look at things like cos-play and the like...
I'm not saying you're wrong ... but you're going at the wrong crowd with that.
Also why does it matter? Why are we all of a sudden worried about 'traditions' and the like? Again... I find the whole thing sort of amusing... identities and tribes ... it's all worthless.
And before you ask about european things, I was against and still am against Hungary being in the game for the same reasons. It's been a client kingdom for most of it's existence with not even a 'one shot' historically important moment.
Experiencing racism first hand gives a whole different perspective on things, and maybe you don't know what that's like? Even if you have never experienced it yourself, don't you think we should try to combat racist in any way we can? And what if this kind of format proves to be effective in this regard? A lot of young people play these games, and they are the next generation. Educating young people is so important, and can improve things for everybody in years to come. I think young people are exactly the sort of crowd to try to educate the most. Sure, not everybody plays games, but a lot do. Whatever way we try to fight racism will not work for everybody, or will not reach everybody...Put it on TV, and not everybody watches TV. Put it on the Internet, and not everybody has the Internet. Doesn't mean we shouldn't use TV and the Internet to try to make a difference...Wouldn't you agree?
I completely get what you mean about identities. We are all human, and that's really the only important part of our identities. Everything else doesn't really matter either way...Whether we are born on this part of the planet or that part of the planet, and whatever color our skin is, it doesn't mean anything really. The problem is that many make issues out of such things. They think it is important where somebody was born, or what color their skin is. It doesn't have to be like that.
You know what, I don't think I would care much at all about my ethnic background if it didn't matter to everyone. The fact that it matters to others has made it matter to me, because it means that if I tell the wrong person, I can be disadvantaged...So yeah, I care about this identity. I care about how people might treat me differently simply because of being born to a genetic line that they are biased against. Take that negative bias away and I'm just another human, just like everyone else...That's the way I would like it to be.
I've updated the stats for the civ, and included alternate ideas...
Roma Tribe / Romani Nation
Leader: Ștefan Răzvan. (alternatively: Ionel Rotaru)
Leader ability: Romanipen (Romani Spirit). Cities gain +2 loyalty, and +5 loyalty during a Dark Age. Also grants the unique mercenary unit Roma Merc that replaces the horseman. Is unlocked with the Mercenaries civic. When next to a unit of a civilization you have an alliance with, both units gain +5 Strength.
(Sindi are a related ethnic group)
Agenda: Baht da Ladž (Honor and Shame). Likes Civs with Great Artists/Writers/Musicians. Dislikes Civs who conquer City-States.
Civ Bonus: Latcho Drom (Safe Journey). Escorting civilian units with a military unit grants a defence bonus. All units gain additional defence during the opening turns of a war you did not declare.
Unique Unit: Vardo (Civilian unit, replaces Trader). In addition to trade routes generating gold after completing a trade route, they also generate +1 housing and +1 amenities in both cities connected by a domestic trade route. Foreign trade routes provide production to foreign civs.
Unique Building: Romen Theatre (replaces Amphitheater). In addition to amphitheatre abilities, generates additional great writer/artist/musician points and has one extra GW slot and able to accept any GW.
Capital: Razvan (Razvanii?) or Iasi. (alternatively: Šuto Orizari)
City names based on clan names: Vătraşii, Căldărarii, Rudarii, Spoitorii, Mătăsarii, Ursarii, Cărămidarii, Gaborii, Florarii, Lăutarii, Ciubotarii, Argintarii, Pieptăanarii, Lăieşii, Cocalarii, Tismănarii, Fulgarii, Zlătarii, Cositorarii, Răcarii, Bidinerii, Geambaşii, Ciurarii, Lingurarii, Salahorii, Kovachii, Sfirnarii, Sitarii, Potcovarii, Kirpachii, Mestere-Lacatuchii.
City names based on settlements: Sulukule (oldest Romani settlement in Europe), Sacromonte, Ayvansaray, Stolipinovo, Hacıhüsrev, Ayrancılar, Örnekköy, Šangaj, Jarovnice, Alsószentmárton, Strmec Podravski, Bangladeš, Csenyéte, Gilvánfa, Cojasca, Armășești, Slobozia Bradului, Vâlcele, Fakulteta, Tokaito, Nadezhda, Ungra, Brdarica, Letanovský Mlyn, Kerinov Grm, Caneira Montijo, Triana, Nou Barris, Marinkova Bara, Deponija, Buzescu, Depresija, Bolintin-Vale, Goveđi Brod, Jatagan Mala (Other settlements also exist in other parts of the world).
Citizen names: (male) Barsali, Danior, Camlo, Django, Hedji, Merripen, (female) Esmeralda, Charani, Araunya, Ehra, Gildi, Lolli, (male modern) Jardani, Kem, Manfri, Tobar, Vano, Rukeli, (female modern) Kizzy, Dorenia, Fifika, Jeta, Miselda, Tiena.
Colors: Green and sky blue (Earth and sky).
Symbol: Wheel of freedom.
Music: (Apologies for the use of the "G" word in the title of the clip)
So how does that look now? When we are done I plan to share it in the design a civ thread and also in the 2K games forums.
I really had to submit this idea into civ design competition. I have clarified that it's not my own idea, and that it was multiple members working together. Hopefully it makes an impression!
Here is where I submitted it: https://discordapp.com/channels/454368414362763274/457682486743269376
Lazy sweeper
Warlord
- Joined
- May 7, 2009
- Messages
- 275
Interesting thread.
It would be possible to include it in some cultural re-work. Very much like Kurdistani, for which the Romani were sent right after being sold to the Persian King something the fifth.
Just give it enough time, spend more resources on a multi-cultural civ composition or gameplay rather than focus on a proper civ itself I think would be smart.
It would be possible to include it in some cultural re-work. Very much like Kurdistani, for which the Romani were sent right after being sold to the Persian King something the fifth.
Just give it enough time, spend more resources on a multi-cultural civ composition or gameplay rather than focus on a proper civ itself I think would be smart.
