FLQ.Storm
Chieftain
Ok, I had trouble with "one time bonus" but I understood that it is the cash bonus. And I understood that there were two optimal roads.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Rr
- Thread starter FLQ.Storm
- Start date
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
Has anyone verified the way the system determines the optimal path? Is it predictable? I always read things like "send an explorer with the GOTO to determine the path from source to desination" but shouldn't this be a predicable algorithm? Lord knows samson has shown everything else to be exceedingly simplistic coding...how about this?
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
I think that was what la fayette was trying to explain, in french though
In the civ2 democracy game we had a picture in the beginning showing the optimal paths, but I couldn't find it.
In the civ2 democracy game we had a picture in the beginning showing the optimal paths, but I couldn't find it.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
Originally posted by funxus
I think that was what la fayette was trying to explain, in french though
In the civ2 democracy game we had a picture in the beginning showing the optimal paths, but I couldn't find it.
I figured that's what he was doing, which is what made me ask, but I'm thinking of a more complete description of the algorithm. This is particularly noteworthy when considering that the bonus is determined by the "return" route which we couldn't simulate from a foreign city using a goto even if we wanted to ...
I assume a straight line is used if available, but...
If not on a straight line, does it go diagonal first then horizontal/vertical? Is it Horizontal/vertical first, then diagonal? or neither?
Does it perhaps try a certain direction first (e.g., North) to see if that gets it closer, then try the next direction (NE or NW), etc.?
Does it ever go horizontal and vertical, avoiding the diagonal?
How does it react when encountering a blockage (e.g., ocean) to what would normally be the optimal path?
If there is an ocean blockage, does it plan ahead to avoid it, or does it go until it runs into the blockage, then react?
Does a foreign (3rd party) city on what would be the optimal path negate the bonus, or does it mean the optimal path must go around it as if it were ocean (the way your explorer might when told to "GoTo" the city?
I think it's been established that terrain type does not affect the route (as long as it's land), right?
A 3rd city between source and destination can have a powerful effect; see Samson's Phantom Roads thread over on Apolyton.Net's Strategy Forum.
If you take a look at La Fayette's xx/yy drawing above you should get an idea of how it works. You may need to cut the lines and paste them into a text editor that has fixed-sized fonts. Yes, it does bend around water obstacles, I believe following optimal path and then adjusting once it encounters. I usually set a couple Eng to what "looks right" first, then check the Trade Arrows and adjust segments until I see the 50% bonus hit. Probably why the AI just tries to RR everything...
If you take a look at La Fayette's xx/yy drawing above you should get an idea of how it works. You may need to cut the lines and paste them into a text editor that has fixed-sized fonts. Yes, it does bend around water obstacles, I believe following optimal path and then adjusting once it encounters. I usually set a couple Eng to what "looks right" first, then check the Trade Arrows and adjust segments until I see the 50% bonus hit. Probably why the AI just tries to RR everything...
FLQ.Storm
Chieftain
God, my starting question was deeper than I thought, hehe.
When our empire is big enough, and there are more and more possibilities of optimal roads, perhaps it's better to just RR all the city squares?
When our empire is big enough, and there are more and more possibilities of optimal roads, perhaps it's better to just RR all the city squares?
I would think that at some point deliveries would be made to a different continet. It would give you the same bonus as the road and railroad (even before railroad is available) bonus combned and also increase the distance for deliveries.
All my deliveries are made to a different continet as soon as possible. That way I get higher payouts and don't have to deal with the optimal path stuff.
All my deliveries are made to a different continet as soon as possible. That way I get higher payouts and don't have to deal with the optimal path stuff.
la fayette
King
Two continents trading (a strat designed by XinYu 3 years ago) can be very powerful, since you indeed get a 100% bonus on cash and beakers received on delivery.
But the ongoing trade route can also be very productive (3 trade routes @ 30+ arrows each give a real boost to your SSC).
My strategy of 'twin cities' tried to optimize that, but samson has demonstrated that the results were even better if you established your trade routes between your own science city and a foreign city faraway (max= 22 squares).
The 'station' city built close to your SSC makes it much simpler to get the bonus.
But the ongoing trade route can also be very productive (3 trade routes @ 30+ arrows each give a real boost to your SSC).
My strategy of 'twin cities' tried to optimize that, but samson has demonstrated that the results were even better if you established your trade routes between your own science city and a foreign city faraway (max= 22 squares).
The 'station' city built close to your SSC makes it much simpler to get the bonus.
la fayette
King
Here is a link to my 'twin cities' strategy:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30992
Xin Yu's thread about two continents trading is in the Great Library (sticky post #2 on top of Apolyton's strategy forum) but the link seems to be broken tonight.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30992
Xin Yu's thread about two continents trading is in the Great Library (sticky post #2 on top of Apolyton's strategy forum) but the link seems to be broken tonight.
I've tried Xin Yu's link several times over the space of months; I think it is gone.
I remember running across your Twin Cities idea a (long) while back. I did not understand the Continuing Trade Route equations at that time, as I was looking for ways to maximize the one-time bonuses of caravans. Now that I reread it I understand what you were getting at: sacrifice the one-time bonus to the far greater benefit of the increased continuing trade, for which distance does not matter. And keep it all in-house, so you get benefits at both ends, rather than trading with a foreign city overseas which is probably not as optimized for trade as one of your own cities. If you pump up the twin city enough you can probably more than make up for the loss of the Foreign City bonus, and you are able to Rush-Buy SuperHighways and Airports in both cities much quicker than the Ai civ would. Sounds like a winner.
I remember running across your Twin Cities idea a (long) while back. I did not understand the Continuing Trade Route equations at that time, as I was looking for ways to maximize the one-time bonuses of caravans. Now that I reread it I understand what you were getting at: sacrifice the one-time bonus to the far greater benefit of the increased continuing trade, for which distance does not matter. And keep it all in-house, so you get benefits at both ends, rather than trading with a foreign city overseas which is probably not as optimized for trade as one of your own cities. If you pump up the twin city enough you can probably more than make up for the loss of the Foreign City bonus, and you are able to Rush-Buy SuperHighways and Airports in both cities much quicker than the Ai civ would. Sounds like a winner.
Angry Roman
Chieftain
LaFayette: What difficulty level? I have beaten the Axis out of France many times on Deity, but do you mean conquering the entire map? Or do you mean just decisive victory in number of objectives? And, lastly: do you have any good strategic tips for me when playing the French in that scenario? =)
Angry Roman
Chieftain
OK, I just played it...it went pretty well, actually =) How many cities did you capture, LaFayette? Bet I got more than you ;-)
la fayette
King
Angry Roman
Du maa ikke bli overrasket om jeg svarer paa norsk, siden jeg har studert et helt aar ved universitetet i Oslo. Dessuten, saa var Ragnhild, min foerste kone, foedt i Tromsoe. Derfor er jeg en av de faa franskmenn som kan snakke norsk flytende. Angaaende ww2, saa skall jeg svare litt senere, paa engelsk
.
Du maa ikke bli overrasket om jeg svarer paa norsk, siden jeg har studert et helt aar ved universitetet i Oslo. Dessuten, saa var Ragnhild, min foerste kone, foedt i Tromsoe. Derfor er jeg en av de faa franskmenn som kan snakke norsk flytende. Angaaende ww2, saa skall jeg svare litt senere, paa engelsk
.Angry Roman
Chieftain
Hehe, takk! Du faar hilse Ragnhild ;-)
la fayette
King
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2712
This thread gives you all the details about that challenge we had at Apolyton, about 18 months ago: winning the ww2 scenario (which means conquering all objective cities), without time limit , without caravan rehoming, and playing as one of the smaller civs (French, Neutrals, Spaniards or Turks).
Jaguar Warrior (who was named FireDragon then) is the record holder with the Neutrals, the Spaniards and the Turks. I am record holder with the French (all objective cities conquered by april 1961).
This thread gives you all the details about that challenge we had at Apolyton, about 18 months ago: winning the ww2 scenario (which means conquering all objective cities), without time limit , without caravan rehoming, and playing as one of the smaller civs (French, Neutrals, Spaniards or Turks).
Jaguar Warrior (who was named FireDragon then) is the record holder with the Neutrals, the Spaniards and the Turks. I am record holder with the French (all objective cities conquered by april 1961).
Angry Roman
Chieftain
Wow! I gotta beat you sometime! I play the French now, and have half of Germany, plus all of Italy, Libya and a bit of Turkey by Dec 1947. But did you play as Deity?
la fayette
King
Deity, of course yes
... and talking about it with you reminded me that it was a long time ago.
I am currently playing it again (as French
) and shall let you know where I am by june 1947.
... and talking about it with you reminded me that it was a long time ago.
I am currently playing it again (as French
) and shall let you know where I am by june 1947.Angry Roman
Chieftain
OK, that`s where I am now (just about). I`ve got Turkey, Spain, and soon I have the hated Neutrals crushing inside my tight ironfist =) But I guess that`s where the fun stops...hope to get Robotics soon, so that I can surprise Hitler with a blitzkrieg howie attack =) But the AI is so evil! They will only nuke me, not each other! =(
la fayette
King
June 1947 = 26 cities in France, Spain, North Africa and Middle East.
Angry Roman
Chieftain
OK, great. I`m in the early 50s now. Beating the Axis was easy, but the Russians are hard! How did you beat them? I think perhaps I neglected science for too long, I wish I had Paratroopers! Their cities are so far away, and they have so many units that it is hard to even get to their cities, let alone keep the cities I capture! So, what`s your masterplan for Russia?
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