RR13 - Hearts and Minds

[lymond]

okay....some thoughts:

1) Brennus wants the farm for making peace with Zara. I say we let him take that city which will give us a culture advantage, and if hopefully Zara does not yet cap to him, try to buy peace at a lower cost. There's really not much we can do at the moment less giving Brennus a lot of techs. However, Brennus capping Zara is a pretty big problem for this game.

2) Great People:

Gspy - Patal looks like a good place for SY based on EP commerce output

GP - We could bulb DR and actually get Islam not that it means much. Spiral might be nice for extra gold, but not really if we plan to go FR later. We can also build Versailles - mainly for culture.

GM - Bulb Corp....to bad we can't use on RP. or a trade mission in ToA city

or just use the GP/GM for a Golden Age

3) Tech: I think Steel/cannons is more useful than Rifles first, but fine either way.

4) Builds:

Finish Bureaus. A couple of cities lack Varan could use +4 health Grocers, but I'm not building those everywhere. We need some cities focused solely on spies and units, which I will focus on. Finish SoL.

I agree with rolo on the city focus for spies. Cahokie should definitely be a target and war with Brennus is inevitable. The Zara cappage will be a problem indeed though. SB not so much. We need to prepare for war on multiple fronts and probably use the draft.

We should get Globe up too, but I'm not sure where. Maybe Varanasi although I generally don't like using NE city for Globe since it is counterproductive. We really don't have super high food cities though.

Trades: Nat to DG for Engineering/Optics/gold. He will switch to Nat which will help relations when we do as well. Maybe we can bribe him into war.

 

[LKendter]

Hold a GM for Sushi. Late gate we need all the possible help to push borders fast.

Keep the small cities on spies if possible. I mark a bunch on the map as spy - cities not worth spending a lot time on buildings.

 

[lymond]

ah yes...Sushi indeed

edit: actually on further thought, Sushi is really not very powerful on this map. There are very few consumables

 

[lymond]

ts played...about 11 turns:

Good news...made a bit of headway with culture (Mound and Poly are now ours)

Bad News - Shaka daggered a couple of turns in


Polynesians like us better:

Spoiler :

Mound City citizens not happy with their leadership:

Spoiler :

Shaka is a bahstahd:

Spoiler :

Finally! (Mound City is ours by AP vote):

Spoiler :

Poverty Pointeites have a little disagreement (how many revolts now in this city?):

Spoiler :

summary:

Bulbed DR with GP and researched it to completion on turn 1. I used DR later to get Engineering from DG. Replaceable parts a few turns later and Rifling almost done.

After one turn, I was able to get a Celtic/Ethiopian peace deal at a much cheaper price.

Shaka declared a few turns in and it was like 1turn fist mode/declare next turn - that quick. I almost didn't catch it. His stack was not that bad though, although he did a surprising amount of damage on the first attack after dropping defenses. I had reinforcements on the way. Shaka healed 2 or 3 turns (I did not feel I had enough to take him offensively without cats) and then suicided his remaining stack on Madurai with no losses on our side.

Poverty Point elected to join our illustrious empire. I used an AP vote to get Mound City.

I had probably a 75% success rate or more with several spy missions Cahokia and NA cities that have pushed our borders out as well. Lots of spies in Cahokia now doing there devious deeds. I built quite a few spies but obviously we need more.

Built HE in Bombay as it seemed the best place for it. Globe in the works up in very northern city. We don't have a great Globe city other than Varan which seems counter productive. With windmills that north city will be fine. It will be nice to have it for the draft and the location is not bad for the culture. I started Hermitage in Calcutta. Felt it was a good location, but we can change if others disagree.

Got up a bunch of other infra. Delhi was lacking Maus and Sec Burea.

Note that I had to whip a bit in the NE because of Shaka.

Overall though, I am concerned about this game. We are not teching all that well for this level. Shaka will continue to be an issue and I expect him to continue to DOW us. Brennus is in fist mode again. I figure he will go after Zara again, but we should be wary.

Question: Other than OR is there any reason that we are in Confused? Does it provide any benefit to use otherwise. FR might help us not be such a target.

 

[LKendter]

We need Confused to take advantage of bonus culture from specialists (Sistine), and to get the option to assign cities to us (AP).
We wouldn't have gotten Mound City with out it.

r_rolo1 - on deck
Thy_Spellcraft -skipped
nocho - skipped
lymond - just played
LKendter - UP

Will try and write something up tomorrow for plans, though on the surface it seems fight the Zulu (bring in ally?), spy SB, and get more SB cities.

 

[LKendter]

Gave the game a quick look.

Brennus is still major league scary, but dropping with our tech lead on him. Still, I don't like him being a spy target. We can't afford a war with him yet.

Zulu is a lost cause diplo wise, and I will start working on his cities.

I hope to get a least one more city from SB. Every city helps.

I plan to adopt Nationhood. We can use the option of emergency draft, and Bur isn't that great for us.

 

[lymond]

Yep, I think Natio is the way to go now and the draft will be helpful w/ Globe.

I still thiink we should hit Cahokia hard regardless and I'd like to get all of SB's cities. We waited for too long to get those flipped. A big problem last game was a) not focusing on missions early b) putting all our eggs in one basket.

With that said I do think we should send some EP love to Shaka.

 

[r_rolo1]

Yup, we need to spread culture to Cahokia not to flip it outright, but to get enough culture to reach the other celtic cities ... otherwise it will take too long when we want to enter in action against Celtia. And spreading culture in Cahokia will also help to smooth our borders in that area . BTW, like I said before, do not kill SB before we have a solid grip on what was his land, because his culture in there will help us ( more city tile culture = less missions for the same culture level ). In that line I sincerily hope that Poverty point does not fall to our hands before we can put some culture in Snaketown ... otherwise it will be hard to get there.

Shaka is a bastard, but it also stupid in sending his army to our lands i agree in giving him some EP love ... we will need to spread our culture east anyway to get to Pacal and it saves us a war dec.

We need a religion for the AP ( that is probably the most powerful tool we have in hands to get cities ) and to get the Sistine culture on the religious buildings ( the spec culture does not need religion IIRC ). That outright beats the benefits of FR. I agree with going natio, though.

Let me repeat one tiny detail of my report: we need a confu missionary in SB Burgundian ASAP

Zara is getting Democracy ... the Bureaus nag is going to start :/

Ok, on the most important issue that I seen in the save. brennus is plotting to war again. he can't be plotting vs Zara and SB ( the second because it is a vassal and the first because a AI never starts plotting a war vs someone that has a enforced peace deal with them ) ... that leaves the choice between us, DG and pacal ( he is pleased with Shaka ... that does not exclude him, but takes a lot of the prob out ). Pacal does not border him and we are in war with someone else ... so I think we need to prepare for a confrontation with Brennus soon. It might not be us, but again a little prepareness would not hurt

 

[LKendter]

Yup, we need to spread culture to Cahokia not to flip it outright, but to get enough culture to reach the other celtic cities

Sorry, I didn't listen well.

Enjoy the report...

 

[LKendter]

1510 AD
I immediately revolt to nationalism.

At +4 we have the *best* relationship of any of Brennus neighbors. Hopefully we are not the target. Between De Gaulle, Shaka, and Pacal it is a tossup which the target is.

I hire 2 artists in Madurai. I want to connect to Shaka soon.

I put some EP temporarily on Pacal and De Gaulle. I would at least like to know what tech they are going after.


1520 AD
(IT) With the potential problems with Brennus I go the war-monger route and head toward cannons. I will detour first for corporation to get Wall Street up in our shrine city. Our economy needs the help.

This was unexpected!



1525 AD
I influence Brennus to convert to Confucianism. That should solve short-term diplomacy if we aren't already the target.


1530 AD
It looks like De Gaulle is the target. The mega stack is now above Madras.
(IT) The guess is right - Brennus just declared.


1535 AD
(IT) The revolts keep coming.



1545 AD
We have another great spy. I am sending him to Vijay. Our WS city is already working on more income with converting mines to mills and hopefully enough growth for a cottage or two more.
(IT) We suffer a slave revolt in Lahore.
BLEH - we get to select the AP leader.

YEA!


A nice bonus effect:



1550 AD
(IT) LOL - SB want our help to destroy France.
HUH - Sitting Bull is not a vassal anymore?


1555 AD
We have another great general. I wish we had another chariot to attach him to.
(IT) I am almost tempting to join De Gaulle vs. SB, but I want it under our terms.


1560 AD
We have our first culture spread vs. the Zulu in Ondini.
We have another great spy. It is time for another SY in Poverty Point with lots of cottages.

 

[LKendter]

1565 AD
We steal military tradition from Brennus.

We begin to spread culture into Mesa Verde.

(IT) This is a NICE ending to my set!


As a bonus we now control MoM.


1570 AD
Wall Street is under construction in Vijay. That will be a nice boost to our economy.

Oxford University can now be built. We somehow forgot about this one. It is tentatively queue in Delhi.

EP generation is *no* longer a problem. It is time to run spy mission. IMO on the dirt cheap missions to cities like Mesa we shouldn't bother waiting for 50% bonus. Use the spy, and save 4 turns waiting.

We don't have the catapults yet, but a very good spot opened up vs. the Zulu. It is time to start getting offensive vs. them. We need new potential flip cities.



This is the last remnants of SB. We really want to push Chaco Canyon to open up the next border push spot. Brennus continues to be a pain with 2 cities taken from De Gaulle so far.


We have the option to trade with De Gaulle for SciMeth. I've left this one on the table since my set is done.

I changed Agra to military. It is now our #3 shield city! It is too strong to waste on spies.

We went from 17 to 25 spies despite losing several. The only area I don't feel I made enough progress was military.


r_rolo1 - Up
Thy_Spellcraft - on deck
nocho -
lymond -
LKendter - just played

 

[r_rolo1]

Got it.

I like what I see, but there is still so much to do ... anyway, 4 cities in 2 sets and the triple of EP output is quite nice.

We need to start spreading confu to our target cities in Brennus land to lower EP spending and to get some extra money to our WS city. But we have some bigger issues...

First and more immediate, Zara is with hands full. Not sure who is the target, but we are in his top 3.

More I'm really not seeing how to get to some cities ... basically all the acess to DG is hard as hell unless we get to Brennus core, that is also not easy. And better not talk of Pacal ...

Techwise ... after steel we can go Steam->Rails or SciMet->Commie or Bio. I do prefer the latter ,for obvious reasons, but rails is also not bad, given that we have a big empire ( and levees are nothing to sneeze at )

We have a resolution in 5 turns if BUG is not deceiving me. Any sugestions ? We can most likely ask for Chaco Canyon or Ondini ... I would prefer to have more culture in Ondini before getting it in hand, so I most likely will ask for Chaco. BTW if we get Chaco we can put the world in war with Brennus via AP ( SB gets out of the AP, opening a crusade vs SB ... and his master ) We will see that in due time, though.

 

[LKendter]

I like what I see, but there is still so much to do ... anyway, 4 cities in 2 sets and the triple of EP output is quite nice.

I know I was thrilled with my set. Our challenge is to set up the next block to fall.
That is why I made the comment about spending spies ASAP to spread culture faster. IMO we can't afford to wait 5 extra turns for the discount when we generate a ton of EP now and more on the way as more EP buildings finish up.

BTW if we get Chaco we can put the world in war with Brennus via AP ( SB gets out of the AP, opening a crusade vs SB ... and his master ) We will see that in due time, though.

UH - read my report. SB is standalone again.

More I'm really not seeing how to get to some cities ... basically all the access to DG is hard as hell unless we get to Brennus core, that is also not easy. And better not talk of Pacal ...

Pacal is just a matter of time. What we need to do there is push Zulu hard to open up access. Ondini is now open to attack.
De Gaulle isn't too hard AFTER we break Burgundian. A city 3 west of it, and we have a way it. It will be tough, but viable.

We have a resolution in 5 turns if BUG is not deceiving me. Any sugestions ? We can most likely ask for Chaco Canyon or Ondini ...

Chaco by a mile - it opens up toward another core Brennus city, and lets us build the push city below Burgunidan.


On tech - rails, again to speed up the spy process. Spreading EP is our #1 road block, and rails help with that. As far as I'm concerned, that has to be the path. We need to speed things up. Rails save at least a couple of turns for every spies arrival.

 

[lymond]

LK - Very nice turnset with some excellent flippage!!!

We might consider settling GGs in Bombay since we are in Rep. I also wonder if it is best to build Ox in Varan the NE city since we are in Rep and not using Bureau. Delhi is okay but not that strong without bureau. I think we will get more beakers from Varan and specialists. Also, this leaves Delhi to focus more on production of units and spies since it has better production anyway.

Yep, DG will probably be last or maybe Pacal. I would think Zara is targeting us. Works out well since we can reinforce the NE against him and possibly Shaka. It is where are army needs to be.

Question: Was the revolt in the former Ethiopian city - now Celtic - an Ethopian revolt or us?

 

[lymond]

oh cool! we have stone now. Commie and Kremlin FTW!

Vijay can pull in the silk after Wall Street for some additional commerce.

Ahmedbad needs to steel some unused tiles back from Cahokia. (I had workers improving Ahmedabad in my ts ...not sure what happened to them)'

Trade Edu/Const for Sci Med and gold

Let's get a synagogue up in calcutta.

We need more windmills. More windmills mean more spies.

 

[LKendter]

I also wonder if it is best to build Ox in Varan the NE city since we are in Rep and not using Bureau.

I am not sure of the best spot myself. That is why I tentatively put in in Delhi, and broke at this point.

Question: Was the revolt in the former Ethiopian city - now Celtic - an Ethiopian revolt or us?

IIRC - us. At the end of my turn set we have far more culture in the city.

We need more windmills. More windmills mean more spies.

I converted some mines to windmills in our interior for the low food cities.

 

[lymond]

We may want to hit Qohaito then with a few spies if we have not already. Not a great city but it will help with the push into Ethopia along with Calcutta.

Unfortunately, we can't build Ox in Varan due to the FP/NE. Oh well. I guess Delhi will do then. Delhi will still get a few specialists running.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, one vote for rails, other for scimet->Commie ... do I have to do all the hard decisions ?

Snaketown needs a LOT of missions to get to the other cities. That will inevitably piss Brennus, that means war :/ I think we need to make 2 stacks to prepare for that : one to cover ex-NA land and the other to the north. Will definitely do that in this set.

I'm worried about Pacal ... he is that kind of AI that , if left alone , will go Radio->Mass media and start going culture. Not sure how to deal with that...

SB will most likely defy the get city AP resolution ( according to my ol'friend DanF they will try to not defy 2 times in a row regarding city takeouts, so we will most likely not get the city.

I assume we want to stop the war between DG and Brennus, right ? Not sure of how much he wants for that, though ... P.S. He wants Edu+ constitution .

Where do we want Kremlin ? The best spot would be the NE city ( more spy slots ) but that city has not so much of prod ... maybe the cap instead ?

P.S II I'll try to play today the ROTQM10 SG ... that most likely means I'll leave this for tomorrow. Feel free to toss stuff to the discussion.

 

[nocho]

Nice progress guys.

If we feel confident about getting comm first anyway, then I'm okay with rails.

I'll be back in the loop from tomorrow onwards.

 

[LKendter]

EP generation IMO isn't the issue, and another GP from commie does nothing for me.

Production and spies to the front IMO the core issue. Rails solve both.