Russia - the most overnerfed civ in the game! Should it be improved?

I think the devs thought of Riflemen as a defending unit, that's evident from the fact that the AI upgrades denfending Longbowmen and Musketmen to Riflemen, and not to Grenadiers.
Actually, the AI "assigns" each unit to a role. If it assigns a Longbow to city defense, then it will upgrade it to be a Rifleman.

That may not be the case for units that the AI have assigned to be offensive units. Usually, these units do not survive in significant numbers, which is why it may not be more apparent.

Unlike what is suggested I don't think that attacking Grenadiers with Riflemen is a good strategy.
Why not?

Wodan
 
What the heck, I don't contradict just for the sake. In fact I never contradicted that BEELINING Riflemen is quicker than beelining Cavalry. I contradicted that they come 2 techs before. If you beeline it's true, but if you don't then they can come together, this is what I have repeated all the time. Then I broadened the discussion saying that anyways beelining Rifling instead of Grenadiers first and Military Tradition then is IMO not the best strategy, because
- it's faster
- it's safer in the majority of situations
- cannons are one tech away
- West Point
Rifling is convenient only because of that +2 Strength, as far as I can tell.



Because Riflemen are the only main "city defender" in their age. If you make them JUST counter for Cavalry with Strength 12, the main defender will become Grenadiers, but Cannons will be very powerful against them. I think throughout the whole game there is a certain patter of units that have a main defensive or offensive role (some are support). You can use them as you prefer and some defensive units can also work in offense with proper promotions, still they work BEST as their main role. I think the devs thought of Riflemen as a defending unit, that's evident from the fact that the AI upgrades denfending Longbowmen and Musketmen to Riflemen, and not to Grenadiers. So they will want to remain consistent with this, this is my idea. Also because otherwise they would need to reprogram part of the AI, it wouldn't just be a mere -2 strength on Riflemen.



This is where we disagree mostly, Cavalry has 2 movements, higher strength and is the counter to Grenadiers and Cannons (especially with the new flanking feature). Unlike what is suggested I don't think that attacking Grenadiers with Riflemen is a good strategy.
But since I don't just reply for the sake of contradiction, yes I did agree that
- Cossacks have been nerfed too much
- Cavalry has been delayed too much in BtS, I don't think it's bad if it comes into play at the same time of Riflemen (and that's what normally happens without beelining etc), problem is that if you go for Rifling (not even beeline) and want to counter Grenadiers and don't have Military Tradition yet, you'd probably want to go for Industrialism for Infantry (is that one tech away ? I don't remember well).
I would think of changing Cavalry or Riflemen prereqs. Maybe make Riflemen require Military Tradition or make Cavalry require Military Science and Military Tradition.

So you can be reasonable :) I agree with almost everything you said.

The only point I'd like to make is that strength-wise cavalry is only 1 point better than riflemen, IMO that's negligible, especially considering the possibility of having CR riflemen. So the only real advantages of Cavalry over Riflemen are: 2 movement, counters cannons and grenadiers (although riflemen can do reasonably well against grenadiers too).
 
Wodan:

That's hard to imagine, since even Pikes can defend against them. The AI has gotten better and focusing upon building "counter" units, so with 3.13 it will focus more on Pikes if it sees you with a lot of cavalry. A human will do even better.

That's a big difference between Cavalry and Rifles or Grenadiers. Rifles/Grenadiers have NO effective counter from the previous techs. Either the opponent is on a technological parity with you, or he isn't.

This is exactly what we're talking about, and it's why the changes to Cavalry and Cossacks make them even worse.

I'm not talking about patch 3.13 since it's much too soon to making such statements as yet. Currently, the AI doesn't counter cavalry very effectively, so even a sizable Cuirasser force will get you somewhere.

The Cavalry are worse than they were before, but I think that they were too powerful previously.

You missed my point. You said (or implied) that it was worth-while to build Stables simply to get the bonus on the Power graph. So, I responded, is it worth-while even if you don't have horses?

No, I said it was worthwhile to build some Knights and Cuirassers even if you're not going to use them immediately for the power graph impact and for the later upgrades.

My point about having Stables because they're relatively cheap is in relation to that, but I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.

Why would you pull out those two specific techs, unless you think they're weak? Isn't that like saying, "can you be more specific about the wartime benefits of Machinery to a civ (without archery)?" Or, pick any choice of seemingly-useless techs from the Cuirasser/Grenadier beeline.

Both trees have their share of techs which are more or less useful to the immediate goal. There's no point in this line of discussion. It's a tit-for-tat argument.

Not at all. I don't know whether Printing Press or Replaceable Parts is weak or not. I'm enjoining you to elaborate on the relative strengths and weaknesses on the tech separation.

After you graduate from the Lib tech-up, I've taken every tech into account for the beeline to Military Tradition and Military Science. Each of them has a benefit and it's taken into account in the military undertaking.

Printing Press and Replaceable Parts happen to be the two immediate techs prior to getting Rifling, so those would be the techs you would go for after you finish Liberalism.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The decision of whether "the free tech is just too large to ignore" depends on a lot of factors. We can't just say "hey, we get a free tech" and say that conclusively is better. Plus, the free tech is far from guaranteed.

This is probably the heart of disagreement here. Personally, I feel that a Liberalism beeline is far from an obvious choice. It depends upon strategy, comparing pros/cons of the whole tree from game start, lightbulb possibilities, and pros/cons of attempting a calculated risk to get Liberalism first.

It's not so much a disagreement as a difference of assumption. I was assuming that we were considering a difference of a Rifling beeline and a Cavalry/Grenadier beeline from a post-Liberalism tech win perspective.

It's a nice and relatively limited set of considerations. If we won't even consider that, then it's practically impossible to make any such generalization. The question of which tech to pursue then become much more complex. Which techs do your allies have and can you trade for them? Can you actually even contemplate invasion or are you pressed to get Rifling just to defend yourself? Can you engineer a three way war in your favor?

All of these factors, and many others, become important to which tech line you will pursue. Needless to say, and "help" from friendly AIs on any tech route will precipitate teching along that route immensely. For instance, an AI who's willing to trade you Nationalism will make beelining for Rifling more desirable (because you'll be able to draft) while making Military Tradition easier. Decisions, decisions.

If we're to trace the tech tree that far backwards, the line of deviation occurs after Feudalism and Machinery. Military Tradition requires Nationalism and Music, Nationalism requires Philosophy and Civil Service; Music requires Mathematics and Literature or Drama.

Rifling require Replaceable Parts and Gunpowder. Replaceable Parts requires Printing Press and Banking. Banking require Guilds and Currency.

You see at once that the tech line without a unifying Liberalism race is hopelessly complicated. Philosophy and Civil Service allow you to use Pacifism and Bureaucracy, as well as to improve your irrigation tiles, and net Macemen with Machinery. The other required techs have their own advantages.

On the other hand, Banking gets you Mercantilism, Replaceable Parts improves the hammer output of Windmills and Watermills, and Guilds improves Workshops and both Printing Press and Currency can improve your economy.

It's by no means a set thing, one way or the other. Which is faster is something wiser heads than me must determine.

If we're talking about the AI, and the AI has tech parity, then he has Riflemen and your Cavalry are dead meat. If the AI does not have tech parity, then it's moot: Cavalry, Riflemen, and/or Grenadiers will all be very successful against AIs who are behind you technologically.

Even if the AI has tech parity, as long as I get the Wonders and Civics I need, Riflemen won't stop me.

If the AI doesn't have tech parity, Cavalry or Cuirassers will carve up his kingdom faster than Riflemen will.

If we're not talking about the AI, and your human opponent has tech parity, then either he has Riflemen and your Cavalry are dead, or he has Grenadiers and will probably end up fighting you with Pikemen. If he does not have tech parity, then he will fight you with Pikemen.

It really won't avail him much.

Again Grenadiers are countered by Riflemen.

Depends. It's a stack to stack battle, not one on one with units.

Building the Taj and West Point will take time, and then you can only build one Cavalry/Cossack in one city. So, you're talking about a later point in the game, and you're talking about limited # of units.

It depends on the map and Civ variances of course. However, if you're beelining successfully, you should get the drop on Taj, and the GA will aid the building of West Point immensely. It's not that late at all. Typically, the West Point will also have Heroic Epic, so the Cuirassers or Cavalry will come out rather quickly. Too, Riflemen can also only be built one to a city, and none of them will have the benefit of West Point if you didn't prioritize Military Tradition, and none of them will have the benefit of Stables regardless.

Reinforcing Riflemen will also have a longer travel time to the frontlines than reinforcing mounted units.

What do you do for knocking down defenses? Spies? Or do you only attack defenseless cities? (Seriously, I'm asking.)

Typically, Catapults, Trebuchets, and Spies.

You don't need a lot of level 3 Trebs to knock down city defenses.

Don't argue with you that it's powerful. It's far from all powerful, and it's debatable that a human opponent wouldn't have overrun you by then with drafted Riflemen, Riflemen combined with some other strategy, Grenadiers/Cannons, or whatever.

He'll need more techs to get Drafted Riflemen than I do to get Cuirassers. In the meantime, I'll have a tech-unit advantage in that he'll have Knights to my Cuirassers. Furthermore, I'll already have gotten Nationalism and I'll be able to draft sooner than he can.

The front part of the tech up is quite strong militarily in a very direct way. Getting the Taj makes it even stronger, but is by no means necessary to secure an advantage.

I also question that you would adopt a heavy musket draft strategy when you are happily churning out Cuirassers/Grenadiers. That makes no sense to me, unless perhaps you are on the defensive and facing invasions.

Because in Civ IV, numbers matter. I'll need to man those cities I'll be taking, and a lot of warm bodies to throw at any surprises the enemy might come up with. Having ten Musketmen AND Cuirassers to beef up my army NOW will put a stiff spine on it, and it'll definitely be an advantage to a Rifling techer who's only up to Replaceable Parts at that point.

By the time he gets Rifling, he could very well be two to three cities down. Then I can just fortify my units and use my Draft capability to overwhelm whatever forces he has left.

That's the thing I'm pointing out. Until you actually get to Rifling, the Riflemen tech-up has no direct military field benefits. The Military Tradition tech up does.

I understand and have played these strategies. Where I disagree is whether is it an obvious do-this-all-the-time strategy. Beelining Rifling is just as powerful, if not more so. And, Cavalry/Cossacks were weak before BtS, and now they're even weaker.

Situation dependent. Generally speaking, I would favor the Military Tradition tech up for power, speed, and consistency in military matters for the purpose of invasion. You get military results now, and it gets better as you tech. For defensive and economic development, the Rifling line is definitely superior.

A nicely promoted anything will punch through a couple unpromoted units no problem. Seriously... take your pick... Sword vs Axe, Mace vs Crossbow, Cavalry vs Rifleman, ... we could go on.

That's precisely the point. If you have Stables AND West Point as well as the Taj, then just Riflemen isn't going to stop your Cavalry. It's not as simple as that. Even Protective Civs fear Blitz Cavalry.
 
Wodan:

The only point I'd like to make is that strength-wise cavalry is only 1 point better than riflemen, IMO that's negligible, especially considering the possibility of having CR riflemen. So the only real advantages of Cavalry over Riflemen are: 2 movement, counters cannons and grenadiers (although riflemen can do reasonably well against grenadiers too).

Also the Stable: +2 more XP at the start translates to one more promotion in the field for new units. Considering the possibility of Pinch and stack to stack combat, I rather think that the Cavalry is at an advantage in some sense.
 
it'll definitely be an advantage to a Rifling techer who's only up to Replaceable Parts at that point.

By the time he gets Rifling, he could very well be two to three cities down. Then I can just fortify my units and use my Draft capability to overwhelm whatever forces he has left.

Sorry man I don't understand why you say that it is faster to get Grenadiers+Cuirassiers than it is to get Riflemen, afterall you could grab Printing Press from Liberalism, which could mean that all you need is Replaceable Parts, Gun Powder and Rifling. IMO that is at least just as quick as getting Grenadiers+Cuirassiers. Sure you won't have the drafting capabilities, but that could be the next goal while you're destroying your opponent with upgraded CR3 maces, no?
I mean what if you lose the liberalism race and the "Rifling techer" gets it? Won't it put you in the position where you are 2-3 cities down and he's getting Nationalism for the drafting?

That's the thing I'm pointing out. Until you actually get to Rifling, the Riflemen tech-up has no direct military field benefits. The Military Tradition tech up does.

Situation dependent. Generally speaking, I would favor the Military Tradition tech up for power, speed, and consistency in military matters for the purpose of invasion. You get military results now, and it gets better as you tech. For defensive and economic development, the Rifling line is definitely superior.

After Rifling one could beeline Infantry, so there's your military benefit. For you to do the same with Grenadiers you would have to get Rifling yourself... I'm not even talking about Cavalry, with which you'll be stuck for a very long time.

IMO Cavalry should get a str boost even if it is just to compensate for the fact that they don't upgrade into anything for ages. Make them 18 so that they can be used with some success against Infantry, afterall Cavalry WAS used in WW1 and even in WW2. This way Tanks+Cavalry would be a nice combination against Anti-Tanks. Or allow Cavalry to be upgraded into Tanks.
 
OR4NG3:

Sorry man I don't understand why you say that it is faster to get Grenadiers+Cuirassiers than it is to get Riflemen, afterall you could grab Printing Press from Liberalism, which could mean that all you need is Replaceable Parts, Gun Powder and Rifling. IMO that is at least just as quick as getting Grenadiers+Cuirassiers. Sure you won't have the drafting capabilities, but that could be the next goal while you're destroying your opponent with upgraded CR3 maces, no?
I mean what if you lose the liberalism race and the "Rifling techer" gets it? Won't it put you in the position where you are 2-3 cities down and he's getting Nationalism for the drafting?

Speculating about losing the Liberalism race is complicated, as I outlined above.

For one thing, strictly "beelining" Rifling doesn't require Civil Service, yet we're all kind of assuming that the Rifling techer has Macemen and is running under Bureaucracy. Clearly there's some concession to going for Liberalism somehow, or this is not a straight tech up from the Classical Age.

Furthermore, I'm not even saying that it's faster to get both Cuirassers and Grenadiers. What I'm saying is that in terms of military action, the tech up through Military Tradition gives you more immediate advantages in warfare and continues to give you advantages while you're teching through the line.

For instance, assuming both of them went for Liberalism and have Gunpowder, the Rifling techer only needs three techs: Replaceable Parts, Printing Press (free from Lib) and Rifling itself. On other hand, if you take Nationalism instead, you only need one more tech to get Military Tradition. At that point, you will have the capability to draft Musketmen and create Cuirassers and Musketmen - a signifcant advantage in war outside of the Nationhood Civic itself (more happy faces), and the capability to boost that with Taj Mahal and West Point.

That's a more immediate return and a possibility for a productive war right then and there, even while you're teching through Chemistry and Military Science for Grenadiers.

After Rifling one could beeline Infantry, so there's your military benefit. For you to do the same with Grenadiers you would have to get Rifling yourself... I'm not even talking about Cavalry, with which you'll be stuck for a very long time.

Assembly Line is actually quite a bit aways from Rifling. You need Corporation and Steam Power, previous to that, Economics and Constitution, of which Constitution itself requires Nationalism. Those are not cheap technologies. That's 6 expensive technologies you need to acquire after Rifling, all while theoretically waging invasive war.

That's not exactly what I'd call an immediate or smooth military transition.

The point of using the Military Tradition line isn't to get to Infantry. That's an entire generation of war technologies away. Once you get Grenadiers and Cuirassers, Steel is only one technology away, giving you Cannon, and Musketmen, and Cuirassers, and Grenadiers. That's an extremely powerful combination.

Eventually, you'll be pushing towards Rifling as you tech up, at which point you'll gain both Riflemen and Cavalry. The acquisition of both these units will further strengthen an already strong war machine.

IMO Cavalry should get a str boost even if it is just to compensate for the fact that they don't upgrade into anything for ages. Make them 18 so that they can be used with some success against Infantry, afterall Cavalry WAS used in WW1 and even in WW2.

You can actually use Cavalry against Infantry with some success. It requires well-promoted Cavalry, and the judicious use of Cannon or Artillery, but it's totally doable.
 
You can actually use Cavalry against Infantry with some success. It requires well-promoted Cavalry, and the judicious use of Cannon or Artillery, but it's totally doable.

Also requires Airships and assumes that Infantry are not promoted and for some reason have no siege of their own to help them and are too afraid to attack the stacks of strengthwise inferior units that can all be beaten 1v1, considering that none of them get defensive bonuses. So yeah you're right..... :-/ I think cavalry should have its age extended and should be more of a threat to infantry rather than just the siege units.

Assembly Line is actually quite a bit aways from Rifling. You need Corporation and Steam Power, previous to that, Economics and Constitution, of which Constitution itself requires Nationalism. Those are not cheap technologies. That's 6 expensive technologies you need to acquire after Rifling, all while theoretically waging invasive war.

Yes Assembly Line is some way away from riflery but it is closer to a "rifling techer" than it is to a "grenadier techer". Obviously it is situational but if you manage to crush one of your neighbours with riflemen you will soon be ready for yet another "superior unit war" with Infantry against your other neighbour. Oh and you get to upgrade all of your highly promoted riflemen.

Speculating about losing the Liberalism race is complicated, as I outlined above.

I agree, but I was imagining a simpler scenario where 2 players have the same techs but one wins the race to liberalism. Obviously one of the players is a "riflemen techer" and the other is a "grenadier techer". What would happen if the "riflemen techer" won? I'm sure it would be as I described: the grenadier techer would be missing 2-3 cities by the time he gets grenadiers, so pretty much the same scenario as if the "grenadier techer" had won, but vice versa.

I do agree with you though that the Cuirassier+Grenadier scenario provides a smoother military transition, without weak points and with possible constant domination: 1st with cuirassiers then with the help of grenadiers and finally with the help of cavalry and cannons. However this comes at a cost of longer wars with more units involved, which essentially could slow down player's research.
 
Roxlimn,

Don't have time to respond in detail today, and your last post will require that attention. I'll get to it as soon as I can and my apologies for the delay.

Some quick thoughts.

OR4NG3:For one thing, strictly "beelining" Rifling doesn't require Civil Service
In the literal sense of "require", you're correct. However, the Rifling beeline has at least 3 optional paths, one of which goes through Civil Service.

If you really wanted, you could go through Guilds instead, or ... I don't remember the other one. In any event, I'd say you definitely should go through either Guilds or Civil Service. Not having either Knights or Macemen would be too much of a handicap. And, since Macemen upgrade to Riflemen and pass on CR promotions, it would seem a more obvious choice.

A detailed analysis should really be done by any player contemplating the Rifling beeline so that he/she is aware of any other pros/cons and makes their own choice with all the data in hand.

In any event, we should all be clear that when we talk about "beelines" that this does not necessarily preclude nor mandate a specific leg of an optional tree.

Furthermore, I'm not even saying that it's faster to get both Cuirassers and Grenadiers. What I'm saying is that in terms of military action, the tech up through Military Tradition gives you more immediate advantages in warfare and continues to give you advantages while you're teching through the line.
I think that's where the comment came in about Macemen being available to the Rifling beeliner.

You can actually use Cavalry against Infantry with some success. It requires well-promoted Cavalry, and the judicious use of Cannon or Artillery, but it's totally doable.
:lol: Given "judicious use of Cannon or Artillery," you can use just about anything against anything with some success. ;)

Wodan
 
Wodan:

No problem. This is a great way to discover strategies and specific moves, and I don't mind waiting.

In the literal sense of "require", you're correct. However, the Rifling beeline has at least 3 optional paths, one of which goes through Civil Service.

If you really wanted, you could go through Guilds instead, or ... I don't remember the other one. In any event, I'd say you definitely should go through either Guilds or Civil Service. Not having either Knights or Macemen would be too much of a handicap. And, since Macemen upgrade to Riflemen and pass on CR promotions, it would seem a more obvious choice.

The Rifling beeline requires Gunpowder, which requires either Education or Guilds. If you're going through Education, you'll need either Theology or Civil Service. In terms of research cost, going through Civil Service is probably the most expensive route, since it requires both Education and Civil Service, both expensive techs compared to their alternatives.

Moreover, if you're going to go for a "beeline" to Rifling, it makes no sense to get the Liberalism line of techs because you're going to need Guilds for Banking anyway, so going that route saves you nothing and adds all kinds of unnecessary techs to your "beeline." You'll need Paper, which you can gain from Theology (cheaper than Civil Service), but not Civil Service nor Education.

It's "possible" to get Civil Service, but in terms of a Rifling beeline, you have no need for it at all. It's not another "optional" line, because it doesn't save you from getting Guilds at all. It is absolutely a detour.

Now, if you're going to go through Education to get to Gunpowder (which is unnecessary because you're going to need Guilds sooner or later, making Education wholly unnecessary) then you might as well go for Liberalism and race for it. If you get Liberalism, then you also get Gunpowder (or whatever) for free and it doesn't cost you anything.

It's not a beeline in any reasonable sense if you at all opt for Civil Service.

In contrast, going for Military Tradition does require Civil Service because you need it to get Nationalism, which is opened with Civil Service and Divine Right or Philosophy.

It is more true that a Military Tradition liner is going to have Macemen and Civil Service than it is for a Rifling liner. Of course, if we're going to have the Rifle beeliner go for the Liberalism techs because they're just that valuable, then we might as well assume a similar setup for the Military Tradition liner and we devolve to a post-Liberalism scenario, exactly as I assumed was reasonable.

If we're to consider tech costs that far back, then the Military Tradition lines gain even more speed, because he doesn't need either Banking or Guilds whether or not he takes the Liberalism line of techs, whereas the Rifling liner needs to take Banking and Guilds whatever he decides to do.

If you truly wish to assume a lost or given up race (not even going for Liberalism), then the Military Tradition line is much faster, for all that Nationalism is a horrendously expensive tech (which is normally offset by Liberalism's free tech). Once you gain Civil Service (and switch to Bureaucracy) you can almost always go direct to Nationalism, since Philosophy is a cheap Classical Age tech - easily acquired. Music is only 600 beakers, then Mil Trad only 1800. It's quite possible to acquire Cuirassers while everyone else is just beginning their Medieval tech wars. I know because I've done it - acquired Cuirassers before I even acquired Knights.

I can tell you that getting Cuirassers that early is a strong advantage. Not as strong as a Cavalry Rush was before, but I'm sure you can appreciate now how absurdly unfair that was, given the relative beaker costs of beelining.

You'll still need to get Gunpowder (Guilds or Education) before Grenadiers, but that's relatively a more relaxed race, since you already have the military advantages of Bureaucracy or Nationhood, and Cuirassers with which to win your wars. Of course, if you manage to build Taj Mahal, it'll go all that much quicker. If you go for Guilds, it's much faster than going through Paper-Education. You can assemble a Drafted Musketmen/Cuirasser army quite fast.

Always assuming, of course, that Liberalism was never in contention.

Given "judicious use of Cannon or Artillery," you can use just about anything against anything with some success.

Not "excessive." "Judicious," meaning even moderate. An Infantry has a Strength of 20 against a Cavalry's 15. The odds are somewhat against the Cavalry, but it can still win on quite good odds provided it has the Pinch promotion and the Infantry is damaged somewhat, say half hitpoints.

Compared to odds against a Riflman, it's not that far off. A Rifleman has only 14 Strength, but is +25% against Cavalry (since it's a mounted unit), so it's almost as good as Infantry against Cavalry. From experience only, without looking at the numbers, I'd say that there's almost no difference between the resistance of Infantry and Riflemen against Cavalry.

Since I can and have used Cavalry against Riflemen, I also have good results with them against Infantry. Seriously.

OR4NG3:

Also requires Airships and assumes that Infantry are not promoted and for some reason have no siege of their own to help them and are too afraid to attack the stacks of strengthwise inferior units that can all be beaten 1v1, considering that none of them get defensive bonuses. So yeah you're right..... :-/ I think cavalry should have its age extended and should be more of a threat to infantry rather than just the siege units.

Actually, you only need Cannon or Artillery and Infantry of your own. You can't hope to match Riflemen against Infantry. The weakness of a Rifleman/Cavalry/Cannon stack against Infantry is totally because Riflemen wilt against Infantry. With an Infantry/Cavalry/Cannon stack, you'll do quite well, in many respects much better than with just an Infantry/Cannon stack.

For one thing, you can annihilate entire stacks of enemy Cannon with your Cavalry.

Yes Assembly Line is some way away from riflery but it is closer to a "rifling techer" than it is to a "grenadier techer". Obviously it is situational but if you manage to crush one of your neighbours with riflemen you will soon be ready for yet another "superior unit war" with Infantry against your other neighbour. Oh and you get to upgrade all of your highly promoted riflemen.

Actually, the correct unit to counter Infantry with if you don't have Infantry is Cavalry. Shocking, I know. Your Grenadiers and Riflemen won't stand a chance, so don't even try. Cavalry stand a much better chance of killing Infantry than either of those units. Therefore, you can't really "counter" a Cavalry user with Infantry. He's already got the tech and units to more or less deal with the problem within his borders.

I agree, but I was imagining a simpler scenario where 2 players have the same techs but one wins the race to liberalism. Obviously one of the players is a "riflemen techer" and the other is a "grenadier techer". What would happen if the "riflemen techer" won? I'm sure it would be as I described: the grenadier techer would be missing 2-3 cities by the time he gets grenadiers, so pretty much the same scenario as if the "grenadier techer" had won, but vice versa.

Such is the power of free tech.

I do agree with you though that the Cuirassier+Grenadier scenario provides a smoother military transition, without weak points and with possible constant domination: 1st with cuirassiers then with the help of grenadiers and finally with the help of cavalry and cannons. However this comes at a cost of longer wars with more units involved, which essentially could slow down player's research.

Nope. Wrong there. The wars don't last longer. The military power scaling swings up longer, but the wars don't necessarily follow. It's a failsafe, not a requirement.

I'm telling it from the perspective of someone who's done both, and with various Civs. You can use Cuirassers with stacks of siege and "normal" units. In that function, they're every bit as devastating as Riflemen. Slightly cheaper, they're also slightly faster, in that the entire Cuirasser stack can move into a city in the same turn that they attack its defenders.

If you're only going against a couple Longbows or Crossbows plus maybe one Pikeman, Cuirassers can be almost as fast and deadly as Cavalry. They won't have the culture-punching power, so you'll need to neutralize defenses with Spies, but with that caveat, you can just overrun lots of cities with pure Cuirasser stacks.

The threatened future presence of the Grenadiers is only insurance against any untoward incident. You don't need them, strictly speaking, to wage an effective war. You'll do well enough with Cuirassers/Musketmen/Trebs on Nationalism or Bureaucracy.

If that's still not enough, Cannon is only one tech away from Grenadiers.

The fact that the military power of the tech up continually escalates is not an indication that it's only effective when you do so, and that you're going to need all that time to win your war. At any time you feel you've won the wars you want, you can simply get off the tech track and pursue more peaceful technologies.
 
Actually the Rifle beeline
Requires Guilds (for Banking) so Guilds v. Education for Gunpowder is not an issue

However it also requires Paper (for Printing Press)
which means either Theology (and Monotheism,Masonry+Polytheism) or Civil Service (and Meditation+Priesthood)

So there are really only 2 options
Religious or Civil

(unless they've rearranged that part of the tech tree in BTS)
 
Actually, the correct unit to counter Infantry with if you don't have Infantry is Cavalry. Shocking, I know. Your Grenadiers and Riflemen won't stand a chance, so don't even try. Cavalry stand a much better chance of killing Infantry than either of those units. Therefore, you can't really "counter" a Cavalry user with Infantry. He's already got the tech and units to more or less deal with the problem within his borders.

Not shocking at all, sure cavalry does better against Infantry than either riflemen or grenadiers (for obvious reasons), but it doesn't counter it and it doesn't do well enough. There were plenty of times when I used Infantry to take out AIs whose entire armies consisted of Cavalry, not all that difficult, especially with some airships. I suppose you could say that the AI is stupid. With str 18 cavalry would at least have its age extended until marines, which is probably more historically accurate.

Nope. Wrong there. The wars don't last longer. The military power scaling swings up longer, but the wars don't necessarily follow. It's a failsafe, not a requirement.

I'm telling it from the perspective of someone who's done both, and with various Civs. You can use Cuirassers with stacks of siege and "normal" units. In that function, they're every bit as devastating as Riflemen. Slightly cheaper, they're also slightly faster, in that the entire Cuirasser stack can move into a city in the same turn that they attack its defenders.

If you're only going against a couple Longbows or Crossbows plus maybe one Pikeman, Cuirassers can be almost as fast and deadly as Cavalry. They won't have the culture-punching power, so you'll need to neutralize defenses with Spies, but with that caveat, you can just overrun lots of cities with pure Cuirasser stacks.

The threatened future presence of the Grenadiers is only insurance against any untoward incident. You don't need them, strictly speaking, to wage an effective war. You'll do well enough with Cuirassers/Musketmen/Trebs on Nationalism or Bureaucracy.

If that's still not enough, Cannon is only one tech away from Grenadiers.

The fact that the military power of the tech up continually escalates is not an indication that it's only effective when you do so, and that you're going to need all that time to win your war. At any time you feel you've won the wars you want, you can simply get off the tech track and pursue more peaceful technologies.

Ok lets assume that the wars don't take longer, but surely you need to build more units, since you are likely to lose more cuirassiers than riflemen, and you need siege? So that must have some sort of an effect on your economy or war weariness if you are losing units.
 
OR4NG3:

Not shocking at all, sure cavalry does better against Infantry than either riflemen or grenadiers (for obvious reasons), but it doesn't counter it and it doesn't do well enough. There were plenty of times when I used Infantry to take out AIs whose entire armies consisted of Cavalry, not all that difficult, especially with some airships. I suppose you could say that the AI is stupid. With str 18 cavalry would at least have its age extended until marines, which is probably more historically accurate.

Well, strategically speaking, the AI is pretty darned stupid at using counters. You can take out AIs whose entire armies consist of nothing but Cavalry, but that kind of army is stupid to begin with. You could've taken it out with just Riflemen, believe you me.

An 18 Strength Cavalry would be absolutely devastating. Riflemen wouldn't be able to deal with it, bonus or no bonus. Remember that in most situations, Cavalry have a 1 promotion advantage over Riflemen. That could quite easily be Pinch for most Cavalry, whereas Riflemen have to use both Pinch and Formation, and they have less promotions.

Aside from that, Cavalry that strong would make siege absolutely useless. 10 Cavalry already have a pretty good chance of killing each and every Cannon in a stack, no matter how many. Think about that.

I just think about how many 8-12 Cannon SODs I make and I shudder at the implications.

Ok lets assume that the wars don't take longer, but surely you need to build more units, since you are likely to lose more cuirassiers than riflemen, and you need siege? So that must have some sort of an effect on your economy or war weariness if you are losing units.

Nope. The thing with wars is that most Civs have "hard" and "soft" cities. Riflemen hit both of those just as hard and just as slow. You can't make a Rifleman move more than 1 move within an enemy Civ's cultural influence.

Cuirassers are more flexible. They can target a "soft" enemy city with greater speed. They'll have less force than a Rifleman stack, but since the city's defenses are weak anyway, it's a moot point.

In fact, I don't lose more Cuirassers than I do Riflemen, because when attacking cities with frontline troops, you either use bare Rifles or Siege anyway, not Cuirassers. Cuirassers are mop-up units, used to deal with already damaged defenders. As a matter of course, I lose less of these units on an invasion than any other. If your Cuirassers are defending or attacking full health units, you're already losing the war. Time to stop.

If you attack with Riflemen, you have a bit more flexibility in that you can attack with them frontline without siege attacking prior, but you WILL lose about as much of them as you would siege units anyway, they don't bombard, and their strength is mostly wasted on damaged defenders.

So the real question is, are Riflemen better than both Trebs and Cuirassers in combination? This is a valid question because their main advantage over these units in comparison is that they can do the work of both. I find the worth questionable, to tell you the truth. The wartime ability to Draft even Musketmen cannot be underestimated, particularly when it's "abused" by a Globe Theater city and a Draft City in tandem (plus all your other cities, of course).

This is in general, or with Russians in particular, since they have a Cavalry UU. Also true for the Spanish, who have an excellent UU in the Conquistador, a Cuirasser that can actually Fortify and use terrain for defense. Take that, Pikeman! Also, the advantage of Cuirassers, Drafting, and Musketmen will be emphasized in Civs that have Musketmen unique units, such as the excellent Jannisary and Oromo Warrior.

If I'm Protective or Aggressive or have a Rifleman UU, the Rifleman offense becomes much more attractive, since the offensive boost you'll gain from getting Riflemen will simply be that much more massive, easily worth skipping the Cuirasser/Cavalry advantage altogether, going for Redcoat/Cannon combo instead. Tokugawa's Combat 1, Drill 1, City Garrison 1, X promotion Drafted Riflemen are particularly brutal.


Additional caveat: Riflemen have 1 movement less than Cuirasser/Cavalry. This is an important advantage for the Mounted Units. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's the main advantage of the Military Tradition line. If you can use that extra movement to great effect, then the Military Trad line will pay great wartime benefits. For instance, a long border with your enemy Civ, or the possibility of cutting off 3 or 4 "soft" cities for picking off with Cuirassers later is a major advantage for the Military Trad line.

On the other hand, if you have to move through lots of difficult terrain, have a limited border with your enemy, or generally are in such a position that you have to take your enemy's cities one at a time, then Rifling will prove to be a greater tech asset, particularly in combination with the Printing Press required tech.


General Musing:

Personally, I don't find "beelining" Rifling all that useful without the Nationalism tech and the Nationhood Civic. As I said, the biggest wartime advantages come not from single unit on unit comparisons, but from massive Civ-wide effects like Theocracy and Nationhood. Even if I'm going for Riflemen, I'm going to make sure I can go Nationhood first before going to war. The production advantages of Drafting are just that massive. Even if my enemy manages to get ahold of Rifling before I invade, my avalanche of Riflemen will simply bury his forces under.

This was, in fact, the very situation under which I defeated Montezuma as Shaka in one of my Prince games. He was Aggressive as I was, and he got Rifling ahead of me, because I prioritized Nationhood. Well, of course he decides to invade, but my Drafted Pinch Musketmen on a Hill City resisted his troops easily. I imagine his war weariness went sky-high after a while. Once I got Rifling myself, I invaded him and finished him off. He never did get Nationalism.

Now, once you have Rifling AND Nationalism, Cavalry with Military Tradition becomes immediately available for research, and relatively cheap for its benefits. The real question here isn't whether Riflemen are better than Cavalry, but whether Cavalry for Knights are better than Cannon for Trebs.
 
You guys are commendable for your endurance. I officially gave up :D
 
With str 18 cavalry would at least have its age extended until marines, which is probably more historically accurate.

Really? The value of Cavalry as a major aspect of an army declined from the beginning of the 19th century, and never faced modern-day infantry.

Then again, possibly my definition of Cavalry is wrong.
 
Really? The value of Cavalry as a major aspect of an army declined from the beginning of the 19th century, and never faced modern-day infantry.

Then again, possibly my definition of Cavalry is wrong.

Cavalry was used in WW1 and even in WW2, although obviously not as extensively and for different purposes.
 
Well, strategically speaking, the AI is pretty darned stupid at using counters. You can take out AIs whose entire armies consist of nothing but Cavalry, but that kind of army is stupid to begin with. You could've taken it out with just Riflemen, believe you me.

An 18 Strength Cavalry would be absolutely devastating. Riflemen wouldn't be able to deal with it, bonus or no bonus. Remember that in most situations, Cavalry have a 1 promotion advantage over Riflemen. That could quite easily be Pinch for most Cavalry, whereas Riflemen have to use both Pinch and Formation, and they have less promotions.

Aside from that, Cavalry that strong would make siege absolutely useless. 10 Cavalry already have a pretty good chance of killing each and every Cannon in a stack, no matter how many. Think about that.

I just think about how many 8-12 Cannon SODs I make and I shudder at the implications.

When I beeline my armies consist of only 1 type of unit, doesn't seem to be that stupid, in fact it seems to work pretty well.

Yeah I could've taken out an army of cavalry with just riflemen which kinda proves my point about riflemen....

18 str cavalry wouldn't be all that devastating, if riflemen are given 50% or 75% bonus against them: 14+7=21, 14+10.5= 24.5, which are pretty good against 18, don't forget the defensive bonuses.

At the moment cannons get slaughtered by cavalry anyway, bumping str from 15 to 18 wouldn't make much difference. It might make a little difference for artillery, but then why shouldn't it?
 
OR4NG3:

So not the point.

The reason your Rifleman armies do well is the same reason Cavalry only armies also do very well - the AI sucks at countering it.

18 str cavalry wouldn't be all that devastating, if riflemen are given 50% or 75% bonus against them: 14+7=21, 14+10.5= 24.5, which are pretty good against 18, don't forget the defensive bonuses.

That only makes Riflemen all that more vital against Cavalry, making a tech advantage in that direction all that more dominating. It doesn't make Cavalry any better in a tech parity situation.

At the moment cannons get slaughtered by cavalry anyway, bumping str from 15 to 18 wouldn't make much difference. It might make a little difference for artillery, but then why shouldn't it?

Um, no. Cavalry only get to Flank Cannons if they survive combat. With 18 Strength, they'll sweep any Age-appropriate unit in front of them no problem, with the exception of Riflemen, if you do your modification.

It's complicated and it's unnecessary. Cavalry do just fine.
 
OR4NG3:

So not the point.

The reason your Rifleman armies do well is the same reason Cavalry only armies also do very well - the AI sucks at countering it.



That only makes Riflemen all that more vital against Cavalry, making a tech advantage in that direction all that more dominating. It doesn't make Cavalry any better in a tech parity situation.



Um, no. Cavalry only get to Flank Cannons if they survive combat. With 18 Strength, they'll sweep any Age-appropriate unit in front of them no problem, with the exception of Riflemen, if you do your modification.

It's complicated and it's unnecessary. Cavalry do just fine.

It is necessary if you play a civ whose UU is a cavalry. I wouldn't be too bothered if the civ I play had a riflemen UU, in fact I'd be happy to leave it as is...

Why fight in a tech parity situation? But I think it does make cavalry better in a tech parity situation, since it will do better against grenadiers and cannons and whatever outdated units there are left, also it will do better against infantry which is perhaps most important.

Well the other solution would be to make cavalry come a little earlier (so it doesn't require military tradition for example), but you don't seem to like that either...
 
OR4NG3:

It is necessary if you play a civ whose UU is a cavalry. I wouldn't be too bothered if the civ I play had a riflemen UU, in fact I'd be happy to leave it as is...

That presupposes that Cavalry are badly positioned on the tech tree, which I've been showing isn't true.

Why fight in a tech parity situation? But I think it does make cavalry better in a tech parity situation, since it will do better against grenadiers and cannons and whatever outdated units there are left, also it will do better against infantry which is perhaps most important.

It'll do better against Grenadiers and Cannons, but it doesn't really need that kind of help. It would be too powerful against such at Strength 18. Not to mention it would absolutely sweep any units that's not a Rifleman. No fighting chance at all for the Longbows and Pikemen.

Used nakedly against Infantry doesn't seem right. After all, the Infantry in the game seem to model WW2 units, and we don't see a whole lot of Cavalry in that theater of operations. And even then, I've said that on the whole, Cavalry aren't that worse off against Infantry than they are against Riflemen.

Well the other solution would be to make cavalry come a little earlier (so it doesn't require military tradition for example), but you don't seem to like that either...

Well, that's because I like it now just the way it is, even with Civs that have Cavalry as a unique unit. If Cavalry are so bad, what about Spain with the Conquistador?

No no. It's just fine as is. If anything, perhaps Cossacks ought to get their bonuses against Gunpowder units, to offset the fact that Cavalry now has a smaller role in the game. That would improve Cossacks to the point where they'd be truly very strong, but not Cavalry in general.
 
As an aside, I just finished a game with Pacal, winning a Cultural Victory. The main war in that game was a Gunpowder Age invasion of Japan. It would have been absolutely horrendous had Japan had Gunpowder units, but thankfully, I did it before anything like that could happen.

While planning my invasion, I reasoned that I needed to deal him a fatal blow before I finished him off with a second war. So I planned a tech up through Nationalism and Military Tradition, but also took Guilds to build Knights in preparation for the invasion.

As luck would have it, Japan DoW'd on me. I had a ridiculous tech advantage, but my troop concentration was rather less than stellar. Good thing I'd been building Knights. Even so, I had to shift to Nationhood a bit earlier than I'd planned because I had to raise a credible Musketman defensive army. Once I'd Drafted enough Musketmen, my Military Trad came online and I beat him back and took two of his cities with Cuirassers, Trebs, and Musketmen. It's a classic demonstration of the war tech efficacy.

He had Trebs, Samurai, and Longbows, by the way. Not too backwards militarily, but his economic techs sucked.

Once I acquired Rifling, I upgraded my Musketmen to Rifles (I'd continued to Draft) and my Cuirassers to Cavalry. Took one more city and he capitulated. The massive Power Graph leap must've scared him.

I might have done the same if I'd prioritized Riflemen, but without Drafting, I could've lost a few cities before the tech came online. It's not like I had Macemen built up. Most of my Classical Age game was REX and Wonder-building.
 
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