Russia - the most overnerfed civ in the game! Should it be improved?

[0R4NG3]

Cossacks are still nice to have, if you are fast enough to build them (which you should be), then they devastate knights, and destroy enemy cavalry.

I think many people play not on marathon, judging from all those "counter just around the corner".

Usually the emerge of Cavalry means violent death to my neighbours, who send hordes of Knight against them since they themselves have no cav or rifles themselves.

And when they get cav, Cossacks have +50%

Its one of those units i would have built anyways, and getting a free bonus along the way, why not?

Yes that is true, but can just as easily be done with riflemen 2 techs earlier! This is the biggest problem, if there were no riflemen there would be nothing to complain about.

lol you know if you want you can go through the XMLs and makes changes to the game yourself.

Yeah I know, but that's cheating to me and would make my game different to everybody else's.

 

[kniteowl]

lol true...

When I think about it Cavalry probably need a slight buff... well at least the very least the Cossack.

I find it funny that a Formation Pike can beat an Unpromoted Cavalry

Attacking Pike vs Cavalry

6*1.2 = 7.2 Str vs 6.66 str (15/2.25)

Defending Pike vs Cavalry

(6*1.2)*2.25 = 16.2 str vs 15 str

But that's pretty unlikely that you haven't built a Barracks and Stables, but still if you're aggressive those Pikes are dirt cheap compared to Cavalry.

If the 18 str to Cossacks is still overpowered then just increase the hammer cost

 

[0R4NG3]

^^^ I totally agree.
In the game I'm playing at the moment I'm losing about a 1/3 of my Cossacks to pikes!!! If I had used riflemen instead I wouldn't have such problems.

 

[Thalatta]

I think Cavalry in general could use a boost with the new tech requirements and Cataphracts in there - they're not very useful now, except against outdated units...

I like the Russian leaders, but I do see your point on them being rather bland now. Cathy is great for early expansion, but if you win early you never get to the UU/UB. Stalin offers nice flexibility, but other leaders are better at emphasizing military or wonders. Peter can make a solid builder, but is unspectacular.

 

[jimbob27]

How many people have actually used the research institute? I doubt many have. People see it's near the end of the tech tree, and just discount it entirely

I use it...... It only takes 3-4 techs to beeline to from the rennaisance period. If you beeline for it, and combine it with a specialist economy...... it is actually extremely powerful.

 

[peter450]

The trouble with a uber powerful cossack is it would have no counters, the whole game is based on a counter combat system, (except late game naval, an see how messed up that is), currently the cossack is a strong counter to 3units, cannon, cav's, grenadiers, a rifleman can counter two, cavs & cannon, it also has 1 move loosing a big junk of mobilty to cavelry aswell, i just can't see were the unit is weak unless your fighting against the unit that's a specific hard counter to cavelry units

 

[alpaca]

The trouble with a uber powerful cossack is it would have no counters, the whole game is based on a counter combat system, (except late game naval, an see how messed up that is), currently the cossack is a strong counter to 3units, cannon, cav's, grenadiers, a rifleman can counter two, cavs & cannon, it also has 1 move loosing a big junk of mobilty to cavelry aswell, i just can't see were the unit is weak unless your fighting against the unit that's a specific hard counter to cavelry units

Well it's weak because 90% of the army of the time will consist of Riflemen which most of the time beat Cossacks/Cavalry.

In fact I had a grudge against the Cav's position in the tech tree because I'd usually do a Cav rush at the time. Now I do a Riflemen rush which is as powerful because I usually have some city raider 2 or 3 Macemen around (or can recruit some because I usually take Military Science pretty late) which just whack anything that's defending a city.

I kind of like the idea of giving them Pinch to allow them to win against Riflemen. To be honest, Riflemen don't have a real counter, either (well Grenadiers have an attack bonus against them but they usually come quite a bit later and they are somewhat weaker which means that you can still beat them with defensive terrain bonuses even on the defense).

However with the Cuirassiers I believe cavalry needs some upgrade in general - I usually don't even research Military Tradition now (in fact I frequently ignore the whole Nationalism branch for some time when I have the Pyramids) because cav is just not going to pull it, dying to a Rifleman when I send it in to pillage or rush forward. Admittedly, it is boosted by stables but when I wage war I will often have Theocracy, Vassalage or an agg leader. In my opinion, Riflemen should lose their +25% against cavalry - this would lead to a situation where cavalry would rule the plains but wouldn't have a good chance in rough terrain or attacking cities.

@Nay: Well the normal setting is normal so I'd usually assume most people play on that speed.
Besides, what stops you from doing the same with Riflemen, Knights are as easily killed by them as by Cav.

 

[Merkinball]

What's the math here on Cossacks having a counter? The AI doesn't spam rifleman. It spams mounted units. Typically it spams mounted archers and knights and upgrades them.

Guess what? Cossacks have the edge.

Riflemen are not proper counters. After the bonus it is a 17.5 to 15 fight without bonuses. Take into consideration that with just two promotions, a cavalry gets a gunpowder bonus which negates the riflemans bonus and what are you left with? Oh yeah, no proper counter to the cavalry.

Let's go farther with infantry. A cavalry with the gunpowder promotion is...damn near close to being right on par with an unpromoted infantry unit. It's basically a 50-50 crap shoot.

A proper counter is a pikeman to a knight. An axeman to a swordsman. A longbowman to a city attacker. A grenadier to a rifleman.

Cavalry have no such counter. And a cossack takes out cavalry efficiently as well.

Most underpowered unique unit? Wow. Ever played as Monty?

 

[Cvntpumeler]

I agree, Ithink Russia got nerfed to all hell. I just played a game with Peter. It would be nice for the Russian civ to have something other than the Phi/Exp leader that i felt like playing at the time, I was very disapointed with Cossacks, the 50% boost against other mounted units is pretty worthless.

 

[onedreamer]

First I'm just going to list all of the Russian nerfs:
- Catherine (from Cre/Fin to Cre/Imp) (Warlords)

Not entirely a nerf. In fact, in a Pangaea map it is a very powerful combination. This kind of map (one of the most commonly used, BTW) peculiarity is that civs start very close. Because of this, it is very important to expand quickly in the early game, and Creative and Imperialist traits are just the best 2 traits for this. If you somehow fail with it or want to further conquer your way through other civs, then again Creative and Imperialist both help a lot. Sure Financial is very poweful, but it really depends on which kind of game you want to play.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

Most underpowered unique unit? Wow. Ever played as Monty?

Cheap swordsmen that don't require iron are underpowered? laughable. Have YOU ever played as Monty...? correctly?

 

[LuckyAC]

I always beeline to Superconductors, even not playing Russia. If you are in a tech race (which the space race is, no matter how pitiful your production, that will never be your limit), you want to research whatever boosts your tech first.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You forgot the massive buff BTS gave to Cossacks, Flanking Attacks [which makes calvalry units better which makes Cossacks +50% better]

 

[0R4NG3]

What's the math here on Cossacks having a counter? The AI doesn't spam rifleman. It spams mounted units. Typically it spams mounted archers and knights and upgrades them.

Guess what? Cossacks have the edge.

Riflemen are not proper counters. After the bonus it is a 17.5 to 15 fight without bonuses. Take into consideration that with just two promotions, a cavalry gets a gunpowder bonus which negates the riflemans bonus and what are you left with? Oh yeah, no proper counter to the cavalry.

Let's go farther with infantry. A cavalry with the gunpowder promotion is...damn near close to being right on par with an unpromoted infantry unit. It's basically a 50-50 crap shoot.

A proper counter is a pikeman to a knight. An axeman to a swordsman. A longbowman to a city attacker. A grenadier to a rifleman.

Cavalry have no such counter. And a cossack takes out cavalry efficiently as well.

Most underpowered unique unit? Wow. Ever played as Monty?

If you have played as Russia you would know that not only is infantry the end of all cavalry, but also simple pikemen create serious problems if properly promoted.
Again you seem to be missing the point: riflemen come 2 (!!) techs earlier and do not have problems with the pikemen, or anything else until grenadiers, and by the time the AI gets grenadiers it is possible to have infantry. Oh and Monty can have his swordsmen before anyone even gets axemen.

You forgot the massive buff BTS gave to Cossacks, Flanking Attacks [which makes calvalry units better which makes Cossacks +50% better]

That's true, however I think it doesn't work against catapults and trebuchets, so not too usefull.

I always beeline to Superconductors, even not playing Russia. If you are in a tech race (which the space race is, no matter how pitiful your production, that will never be your limit), you want to research whatever boosts your tech first.

I'm going to give that a try. The problem is that if I'm behind in tech I usually tend to go for the Internet, which postpones the UB quite a bit making it less useful.

The trouble with a uber powerful cossack is it would have no counters, the whole game is based on a counter combat system, (except late game naval, an see how messed up that is), currently the cossack is a strong counter to 3units, cannon, cav's, grenadiers, a rifleman can counter two, cavs & cannon, it also has 1 move loosing a big junk of mobilty to cavelry aswell, i just can't see were the unit is weak unless your fighting against the unit that's a specific hard counter to cavelry units

Not quite true, does praetorian have a counter, does conquistador? The counter system doesn't apply to UUs, that's what makes the game interesting. Each and every civ is supposed to have some period of time when it shines and is better than others. Obviously no UU should be immortal (no pun intended), but they should be harder to counter than the unit they replace. I agree that the original cossack was way too good and I didn't actually enjoy using them, but the nerf that they got has made them absolutely unattractive. Cossacks are now defensive units, being able to counter, as you say 3 units, but have no role of their own, because of this most people prefer the riflemen->infantry route, which is more efficient.

 

[onedreamer]

Again you seem to be missing the point: riflemen come 2 (!!) techs earlier

Yeah well, beelining even Helicopters come earlier than Cavalry: all you have to do is avoid researching Military Tradition. But in my book, and in the AI's book as well, this tech comes BEFORE Rifling, and not the other way around, because since the AI does not beeline for Riflemen, having Riflemen is quite pointless if compared to having Cuirassiers and West Point, especially since Riflemen against Grenadiers are only slightly better than Musketmen, hence you need those Cuirassiers because the AI is going to research for Military Science & Tradition before Rifling, and that's because it's much faster to do; so unless you want to pretend that you face Grenadiers with Riflemen or with other Grenadiers... Military Tradition should come before.
So yeah, Rifling could come 2 techs earlier, but it could also (and most likely) not. The above point is pointless because it's not a fact but just a possibility.

 

[Antilogic]

Cheap swordsmen that don't require iron are underpowered? laughable. Have YOU ever played as Monty...? correctly?

You mean "cheap swordsmen that don't require iron (and are underpowered) are underpowered", right? That strength loss hurts against any guys using axes, which is available a tech before Iron Working.

I've thought about adding a mod for the Russians into the Minimal Mod. I thought it would be funny to change the Research Institute free specialists to a scientist and a spy instead of two scientists, to reflect how the Russians "obtained" some of their technology in the last hundred years.

I initially agreed with the first Cossack nerf, but knocking them all the way down was a little unnecessary (in my opinion of course).

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Russia's UB should be Kremlin. The name "Research Institute" sounds to generic and it comes extremely late compared with other UBs.

On the other hand, there were more Kremlins than the one in Moscow, and even that Kremlin existed since the Dark Ages. The Kremlin should replace the courthouse.

 

[Merkinball]

Cheap swordsmen that don't require iron are underpowered? laughable. Have YOU ever played as Monty...? correctly? - cvntpumeler

Cheap? Yes. But hey, you send in all your Jaguars, I'll be waiting for you with my axemen and wipe you out. I have played Monty, and when I did, I wanted my money back. Sacraficial alter? Nice for the early slaving, but I would seriously rather have axemen. The Jaguar is too situationally specific to be of any use uniquely better

See, the difference between a cossack and a jaguar, is that a jaguar has a counter to it that one for one, will pretty much counter it every single time. In the field, how much better is a jaguar than simple spearman? Or even an archer? Then, when I get swordsmen, I still beat you on the field.

Oh, and how does one get Jaguar's before Axemen?

I don't know if the Jaguar is the worst UU, but it's close to it.

If you have played as Russia you would know that not only is infantry the end of all cavalry, but also simple pikemen create serious problems if properly promoted. - Orange

I don't have to play as Russia to see evidence that infantry are the end of cavalry. I can play as any other civ to see that this simply is not the case. Again, it's a mere two promotions to gunpowder promotion. That in its own right gets you damn near a 50/50 fight against straight infantry. Then take into account a chance for withdrawal? I don't see that being the end of cavalry at all.

As for pikeman countering cavalry. What a hilarious assertion. 6 X 2 << straight up 15 for cavalry. How many promotions do you have on your pikeman that's taking down an unpromoted cavalry? Pikeman have a enough problem in their own right going up against knights, let alone cavalry.

 

[0R4NG3]

Cheap? Yes. But hey, you send in all your Jaguars, I'll be waiting for you with my axemen and wipe you out. I have played Monty, and when I did, I wanted my money back. Sacraficial alter? Nice for the early slaving, but I would seriously rather have axemen. The Jaguar is too situationally specific to be of any use uniquely better

See, the difference between a cossack and a jaguar, is that a jaguar has a counter to it that one for one, will pretty much counter it every single time. In the field, how much better is a jaguar than simple spearman? Or even an archer? Then, when I get swordsmen, I still beat you on the field.

Oh, and how does one get Jaguar's before Axemen?

I don't know if the Jaguar is the worst UU, but it's close to it.

I don't have to play as Russia to see evidence that infantry are the end of cavalry. I can play as any other civ to see that this simply is not the case. Again, it's a mere two promotions to gunpowder promotion. That in its own right gets you damn near a 50/50 fight against straight infantry. Then take into account a chance for withdrawal? I don't see that being the end of cavalry at all.

As for pikeman countering cavalry. What a hilarious assertion. 6 X 2 << straight up 15 for cavalry. How many promotions do you have on your pikeman that's taking down an unpromoted cavalry? Pikeman have a enough problem in their own right going up against knights, let alone cavalry.

Jaguars - it is not always that one has copper, it takes time to hook copper up, so it is possible to get jaguars before axemen, especially if beelining. I'm pretty sure jaguar replaces swordsman and not axemen, in which case you can have both jags and axes, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not saying jaguars are great, but they have their role and can be used effectively.

Pikemen - 3 promotions, 2 with aggressive leader. Formation pikemen beat unpromoted cossacks, there is a calculation with exact numbers somewhere in this thread. Also pikemen are much cheaper than cossacks. All I'm saying is that a pikeman is a considerably bigger threat to a cossack than it is to a rifleman.

Infantry - Infantry gets defensive bonuses, so even unpromoted infantry can easily defend a city against a cossack with 2 promotions.

Yeah well, beelining even Helicopters come earlier than Cavalry: all you have to do is avoid researching Military Tradition. But in my book, and in the AI's book as well, this tech comes BEFORE Rifling, and not the other way around, because since the AI does not beeline for Riflemen, having Riflemen is quite pointless if compared to having Cuirassiers and West Point, especially since Riflemen against Grenadiers are only slightly better than Musketmen, hence you need those Cuirassiers because the AI is going to research for Military Science & Tradition before Rifling, and that's because it's much faster to do; so unless you want to pretend that you face Grenadiers with Riflemen or with other Grenadiers... Military Tradition should come before.
So yeah, Rifling could come 2 techs earlier, but it could also (and most likely) not. The above point is pointless because it's not a fact but just a possibility.

Pointless point...right. How is it pointless if I can get riflemen 2 techs before Cossacks if I beeline? I think this is pretty much indisputable. After I get riflemen I will rush my nearest neighbour and beeline to assembly line in the process, so by the time he gets Grenadiers I will have Infantry.
The problem is that Cavalry doesn't require helicopters, what it does require is riflemen, so comparing helicopters and rifles is pointless.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is that it is more efficient to use riflemen than cavalry, which makes cossacks pretty unexciting. Giving cossacks +1 str or making them independant of riflery would make them exciting enough for me.

 

[0R4NG3]

I always beeline to Superconductors, even not playing Russia. If you are in a tech race (which the space race is, no matter how pitiful your production, that will never be your limit), you want to research whatever boosts your tech first.

Ok I tried it and I think it works reasonably well, i can't say for sure since I don't know how much contribution did the 2 scientists make. My spaceship arrived in 1953, which is about the same date I usually get for my space wins, so I'm not sure, but it felt quicker.
However there was a little problem: beelining Superconductors made me miss out on 4 of modern age wonders, which increases the risk of AI winning a cultural victory. I suppose I could've researched radio and mass media first and then tried to go for superconductors.

Edit: I just did a quick approximation: At the end of the game I had 19 cities, and assuming that they all had all of the science buildings in them, the extra scientists from Research institutes contributed 474 beakers to my 3000 total, which isn't bad I suppose.