Russia - the most overnerfed civ in the game! Should it be improved?

[DigitalBoy]

I had a pretty good run with cavalry in my last game. I was able to mass produce them at a time when my main rival's best unit was curassiers. Even with the extra strength my cavalry had about 75% odds fighting these outdated units. Now imagining that I had the +50% bonus from cossacks... And they were pretty far from becoming obsolete too; I was 6 techs away from assembly line if I beelined for it.

 

[0R4NG3]

I had a pretty good run with cavalry in my last game. I was able to mass produce them at a time when my main rival's best unit was curassiers. Even with the extra strength my cavalry had about 75% odds fighting these outdated units. Now imagining that I had the +50% bonus from cossacks... And they were pretty far from becoming obsolete too; I was 6 techs away from assembly line if I beelined for it.

What odds did Riflemen have?

 

[Wodan]

You don't have to capture cities... Raize and expand when ready. But yes you're right with the old Cossack you could do both.

Yes.

Also, I think you missed one of my side-points... costs to pursue a foreign war hurts Praets more than Cossacks. Every coin spent on unit maintenance costs more because it's earlier in the game. And, there are more and easier to get sources of happiness, so war weariness hurts less as well.

<-- Doesn't limit this player's creativity and enjoyment.

What, you always play with State Property? Well, okay, but that's denying yourself the variety of other strategies, and denying yourself additional replayability. Yes, you may be perfectly content... but in a sense it's like saying "I only watch Adventure films"... I'm not going to gainsay you that choice, but we should agree that there are people who enjoy Comedies, Dramas, etc.

You do have a point there though, but I don't think it would be too bad, considering that the building would still work under other civics, but can only be built under State Property, a bit like organized religion and missionaries. Also with Radio comes Cristo Redentor, so it becomes even easier.

Ehh. Workarounds aren't the most elegant solution. What we're talking about here is inherent game design philosophy.

Wodan

 

[0R4NG3]

Yes.

Also, I think you missed one of my side-points... costs to pursue a foreign war hurts Praets more than Cossacks. Every coin spent on unit maintenance costs more because it's earlier in the game. And, there are more and easier to get sources of happiness, so war weariness hurts less as well.

What, you always play with State Property? Well, okay, but that's denying yourself the variety of other strategies, and denying yourself additional replayability. Yes, you may be perfectly content... but in a sense it's like saying "I only watch Adventure films"... I'm not going to gainsay you that choice, but we should agree that there are people who enjoy Comedies, Dramas, etc.


Ehh. Workarounds aren't the most elegant solution. What we're talking about here is inherent game design philosophy.

Wodan

I didn't miss your point about unit maintenance, I just don't entirely agree with it, here's why: early wars require less units, captured/raized cities still provide plenty of cash which can fuel your research. During the age of cossacks you get about the same amount of cash for cities, but you need a much bigger army to capture them. Also early wars > late wars.

Yes, I almost always play with state property, I tried most of the other civics and they all worked badly with my playing style. Mercantilism is only useful is certain situation, such as being at war with everyone, Free Market is decent and I normally use it until I get to state property, Environmentalism like mercantilism is only useful in certain situations. I usually use a "production economy" and rarely build cottages, prefer watermills and workshops instead, so the state property/caste system combo works very well indeed.
I'm sure there are people who enjoy other civics, but they might enjoy a better UB even more

 

[Wodan]

I didn't miss your point about unit maintenance, I just don't entirely agree with it,

Oh, ok. No problem!

here's why: early wars require less units

Really? Hmm. And hmmm. I'm not sure that's true in my games. Later wars I sometimes take a handful of cats and/or trebs, but nowadays sending a spy is often even better. So, I'd say that early wars take just as many units as later wars.

Of course, you can always use more units. So, the question then comes back to play style... how many units are available at each stage of the game. Given that it's not usually cost effective to upgrade, that means that a Praet army vs a Cossack army probably takes about the same amount of time/effort, and thus neither has more units available.

captured/raized cities still provide plenty of cash which can fuel your research

Good point. But the same is true of both cases, no?

During the age of cossacks you get about the same amount of cash for cities, but you need a much bigger army to capture them.

Again, I'm not sure that's true. Can you provide examples and/or illustrate why you need a bigger army?

Also early wars > late wars.

Que?

Yes, I almost always play with state property, I tried most of the other civics and they all worked badly with my playing style. Mercantilism is only useful is certain situation, such as being at war with everyone, Free Market is decent and I normally use it until I get to state property, Environmentalism like mercantilism is only useful in certain situations. I usually use a "production economy" and rarely build cottages, prefer watermills and workshops instead, so the state property/caste system combo works very well indeed.

Ah. Well, my only advice is to try the pistachio ice cream. It's a nice change of pace from the chocolate.

I'm sure there are people who enjoy other civics, but they might enjoy a better UB even more

Agreed. So if we're going to suggest a better UB, let's no limit it by saying you HAVE to run State Property to get it.

Again: I have absolutely no problem with us suggesting to Firaxis to iimprove the Russian UB... I just think it should be done across the board.

Otherwise, you are saying that the Russian UB is balanced perfectly fine unless you're running State Property, in which case it's weak. And I don't think that's the gameplay you're looking for. Right?

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Focus on that last sentence please OR4NG3... that's the kicker.

Wodan

 

[0R4NG3]

Really? Hmm. And hmmm. I'm not sure that's true in my games. Later wars I sometimes take a handful of cats and/or trebs, but nowadays sending a spy is often even better. So, I'd say that early wars take just as many units as later wars.

Yep, I have to agree that this spy business decreases the amount of units needed to take a city. So you win this one, but only because of the spies. However I'm sure you won't argue that AI has bigger stacks late game, more cities, better production... but obviously this is different for every war, depends on who you're fighting really.

Que?

Usually it is better to capture AI's capital earlier rather than later.

Ah. Well, my only advice is to try the pistachio ice cream. It's a nice change of pace from the chocolate.

Hate both flavours. But don't worry I do vary the amount of cottages I build depending on the map, so I'm not too bad.

Agreed. So if we're going to suggest a better UB, let's no limit it by saying you HAVE to run State Property to get it.

Again: I have absolutely no problem with us suggesting to Firaxis to iimprove the Russian UB... I just think it should be done across the board.

Otherwise, you are saying that the Russian UB is balanced perfectly fine unless you're running State Property, in which case it's weak. And I don't think that's the gameplay you're looking for. Right?

Wodan

Hehe why do you think that I would complain if it just came with radio without the state property requirement? I thought the OP suggested state property as a way to nerf the research labs a little bit, so that they don't come too early.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

Making the Research Institute available earlier would be perfect - it's a good building but it just comes too late. Perhaps Refrigeration or Electricity?

I really don't know about Cossacks, because I only play on Prince, where I never get a Cossack vs Cavalry situation so I can't appreciate the bonus.

 

[lulu135]

Hehe why do you think that I would complain if it just came with radio without the state property requirement? I thought the OP suggested state property as a way to nerf the research labs a little bit, so that they don't come too early.

Yeah the idea was to come early, but not so early that its game breaking. By the time you have radio and communism, superconductors aren't that far away. Also in terms of balance state property isn't ideal for commerce, losing the extra route etc. Also would make the state property requirement go away with superconductors, so its no worse than it is now.

 

[alpaca]

Wodan: Early wars can be financed pretty much only through razing and capturing cities whereas this will only have a very small influence from the Renaissance onwards because your output is something between 5 to 20 times as high depending on which "early" we're talking about.

It balances out finely I believe. If you have a good military lead you can bash your opponents over the head, run on deficit spending and then catch up again with cottages and courthouses while later you can just continue researching at a slightly minor speed which is in my opinion far overruled by other factors.
However you also have to take inflation into account which at the time increases your cost by something like 75%-100% or so (not sure about the figures, I usually don't follow inflation that closely) which means the difference is dwarfed a little bit again.

Just goes to say: I agree that the cossacks were more overpowered than the praets - even more so because you could still do the liberalism->nationalism slingshot for a cav attack on two or three opponents which made the forces you needed extremely small (I could take on enemies with only 6 cossacks or so sometimes, of course I continued to build some but I'm talking about initial attack strength).

 

[peter450]

The UB is a late one have to agree, i think a little sooner would not really break the bank, but the UU is fine as is, the only unit that counters it is riflemen and you need 3 promo's to get formation but only 2 to get pinch, if you can't counter a cossack with riflemen what are you going to counter it with?

 

[Wodan]

the UU is fine as is, the only unit that counters it is riflemen

Pikemen counter both Cavalry and Cossacks.

Wodan

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A 'Pinch' Cavalry (the worst you can have v. Pike) beats a Formation Pike

Pinch Cavalry = 15 * 1.1 = 16.5
Formation Pike= 6 * 1.2 * 2.25 = 16.2
or if you are even better prepared against a low tech foe
Combat II Cavalry= 15 * 1.2 = 18
or if you use your stables to match them in experience
Combat III Cavalry = 15 * 1.3 = 19.5

so a realistic matchup is 19.5 v. 16.2 a bonus for the cavalry (although the Pikeman has a strong advantage on the cost department)

 

[Nelgirith]

- Catherine (from Cre/Fin to Cre/Imp) (Warlords)

Tbh, it doesn shock me at all ... Ever watched how AI Catherine was playing ? Spamming cities asap ... She's like Zara Yacoub.
So making her Imp instead of Fin is basically a way to help the AI in its way of playing, since spamming settlers will cost less, helping for a better start ... I better start watching at her if she's my direct neighbour now

Also as a player, I value Imperialist trait over Financial, I just love REXing. So again, to me it's far from being a nerf ... in fact it even should push me to play her more often.

 

[Mortius]

First I'm just going to list all of the Russian nerfs:
- Cossacks (from str 18, 50% vs mounted to str 18, 25% vs mounted) (Vanilla)
- Cossacks again (from str 18, 25% vs mount to str 15, 50% vs mount) (Vanilla)


- UU is only ever useful in 2 circumstances: you are outteching your enemies by alot, your enemies are using alot of cavalry. On higher difficulty usually neither is the case. Besides riflemen do a decent job at countering cavalry so why would anyone waste precious beakers on 2 more techs (Nationalism and Military tradition) to get Cossacks?

You have used to the old fashioned cossacs too much, which were way to overpowered. That's way you miss them so badly now. Probably you are russian too, so it's a question of your national pride, which don't allow you to see things objectively.
Cossacks are fine as they are now. If you beline to it, they will conquer the world for you very quickly, as they did for me in my last emperor game.

And lastly if you are not happy with Russia, play other civ or change it in the xml file, and .................................... have a candy

 

[peter450]

Pikemen counter both Cavalry and Cossacks.

Wodan

Pikemen do not counter cossacks, the base str of pikemen is 12, cossacks is 15, a counter unit is one that can take down the unit it's meant to counter on a like for like basis, I'm sure a warlord unit pikemen with 100xp would own cossacks, but seeing as your average pikey is going to pop out with 1 or 2 promo's at best i can't see it being any better a counter unit than a grenadier of str 12

 

[CivDude86]

For defending yeah but formation pikes beat combat1 calvary when attacking (64% odds) since taking 125% off of 15 is a more than adding it to 6. Getting formation isn't easy unless your aggresive or limit your pikes from GG cities.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

A 'Pinch' Cavalry (the worst you can have v. Pike) beats a Formation Pike

Pinch Cavalry = 15 * 1.1 = 16.5
Formation Pike= 6 * 1.2 * 2.25 = 16.2
or if you are even better prepared against a low tech foe
Combat II Cavalry= 15 * 1.2 = 18
or if you use your stables to match them in experience
Combat III Cavalry = 15 * 1.3 = 19.5

so a realistic matchup is 19.5 v. 16.2 a bonus for the cavalry (although the Pikeman has a strong advantage on the cost department)

Nevermind that the Cavalry could just stop the charge in front of the Pikeman formation and waste all the pikemen with rifles . I don't think Pikemen should have a ~50-50 shot at beating cavalry/cossacks in any situation... that's kind of absurd. Cavalry should get a bonus against melee units or something to make it less counterable for Pikemen to improve realism and gameplay. Cavalry/Cossacks are quite useless now because they aren't that dominant in their era and they dont upgrade to a unit you want to have a huge stack of (choppers).

 

[Wodan]

Pikemen do not counter cossacks, the base str of pikemen is 12, cossacks is 15, a counter unit is one that can take down the unit it's meant to counter on a like for like basis, I'm sure a warlord unit pikemen with 100xp would own cossacks, but seeing as your average pikey is going to pop out with 1 or 2 promo's at best i can't see it being any better a counter unit than a grenadier of str 12

On a like-for-like basis. Exactly.

Pikes cost 60 hammers. Cavalry cost 120. So, you can churn out 2 pikes for every Cavalry.

Let's compare the first pike to the cavalry. Krikkitone tossed out some numbers. Let's say the Pike only wins 25% of the time. Awesome, you killed a 120 hammer unit for free.

The other 75% of the time, the Pike dies, and a severely wounded Cavalry is left. Your second Pike kills it no problem. So, what happened? You traded a 60-cost unit for a 120-cost unit of your opponent.

How is this not a counter?

Wodan

 

[alpaca]

And when attacking don't forget that often times the Pikeman will be in a city with an added 50% defense on average (well if it's a city you want to have anyways). The same maths apply to forests, so a combat II pike will have something like 6*(1+1+0.5) = 15 (I don't really think it's very realistic to calculate with formation because the AI rarely uses it and even then you'd have to be up against an agg opponent) whereas the combat 2 cav will also have 15 - not a huge difference really

If the pike is attacking, the maths is something like 15*(1/2) = 7.5 which is admittedly a fair advantage over the pike. However considering the huge difference I'd definitely count it as being a counter-unit when you're defending (in fact this is something I noticed during my cav rush days without BtS - don't underestimate the pike!)