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Sacred Science

stratego

Trying to be good.
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
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At critical limit
Has science in the past decades reached the sacredness that religion once had? In the past you can say "God said this" and people will believe it without questioning where the info comes from. Now you can say "Studies has shown this" and people will believe it without questioning if the experiment was carried out using scientific methods.
 
Interesting question. :hmm:

But judging fr the reactions here at CFC at the results of certain studies, I would say far from it.

Now then, the question will be - is CFC representative of society as a generality? Perhaps a study is needed. :)
 
this is very true, and it just shows how desparate people are to cling to something that makes them feel intelligent or secure. a majority of people will believe anything you tell them just so they can feel 'smart' or 'enlightened.' it is a method of controlling those who can't think for themselves, just like religion. just as the old addage states, "the masses are asses"

*i will say that in my opinion, most scientific principles are based on facts/observations, and that i am a firm believer in science (as opposed to religion), but i do agree that by backing something with 'scientific evidence' it is very easy to convince many people of its truth.
 
Too few people know enough about science - including many reporters who interpret it for the public- and consequently there may be a tendency for people to either take it "as gospel" , or to reject or doubt the validity of science because findings are falsified and theor is changed. The latter is of course, actually the the great strength of science and sets it apart from religion.

Science is a human enterprise and, as such, it can be misused. However, the basic mechanics of science are no secret and anyone can become aquainted with them if they make the effort.
 
Plus, the study of science also requires a healthy dose of skeptism, unlike religion which espouses total belief as a basic requirement. ;)
 
I'd have to say for many people the answer is, "Yes." I admit that I often believe information without seriously questioning it if it supposedly has scientific evidence.

I think there's a big difference between science and relgion, though: the ease/difficulty of conspiracy and falsehood. A person can make any sort of religious claim, and no one will be able to disprove it; it's up to you whether or not you want to believe it. But with science, if a person makes a claim he/she knows full well that other people will be able to test it themselves (and of course that's the whole nature of science). And usually that's what has happened when you see a scientific "fact." So treating this as "gospel" is a bit less irrational than treating religious texts as gospel.
 
Science has been put on a pedestal, and I think you're right about how people don't question science any more.

However, I think the biggest false 'god' in modern society is not science but materialism. Material goods are what people worship now, and people seem to have totally forgotten that material goods are a fleeting thing.

Just remember, you can't take it with you. :)
 
Was there any time when people weren't materialistic?



I think most people put too much trust in science. This is a symptom of the mellenia of blind religious belief. As the world gets more used to suspended judgement and grows less afraid of uncertainty, it will eventually wear off. It's sort of like getting off heroin by using Codeine.
 
That was a new way of putting it to me. I've never thought of science as a kind of "religion". But the way you put it I see that now that all people call themselves Christians, but don't believe in God, or any gods at all. It's incredible how people believe in false scientists (not priests), no matter what they say.
But personally I think I should stay Forty-Twoist. We believe in universal non-provability, which means that science sucks. And that science is God. All at the same time. Just as confusing as the world is today.
 
Originally posted by XIII
is CFC representative of society as a generality?

I think that hell will freeze over and the members of the US Congress will engage in a big group sex orgy on the floor of the House chamber before CFC is ever even close to being representative of society.

My problem with science is the same as my problem with religion - namely that of dogma.

We have a high amount of confidence in religion (due to faith) but we don't ever know for sure.

We have a high amount of confidence in science (due to experimental results) but we don't ever know for sure.

Always check the motives of the person trying to convince you in religion or science. If its religion, maybe their religion says they will get into heaven more quickly if they recruit more people. If its science, maybe its because of what foundation is funding the study and what results that foundation expects.
 
Originally posted by The Person
We believe in universal non-provability

Does that mean that the concept of universal non-provability is itself non-provable? Kinda like the philosopher's conundrum of if absolute truth is a local phenomenon, then how do we know that that statement itself isn't a local phenomenon?

Its head-scratchers like that that make me glad I didn't major in philosophy. That, and all of the Philosophy profs were jackasses.
 
Originally posted by ShiplordAtvar
That, and all of the Philosophy profs were jackasses.

No sh!t! What's up with that?
 
Originally posted by XIII
Plus, the study of science also requires a healthy dose of skeptism, unlike religion which espouses total belief as a basic requirement. ;)

:goodjob:
Exactly!

I will further ilustrate this point with an example:

When a new discovery is made or when old theories shown to be inconsistent, religion usually tries to supress the discovery to evade change, but science will gladly embrace the new idea if it has enough evidence. Science is not afraid to admit that science can be wrong. Religius authorities either cannot afford to change their views or are too stupid to stupid/stubborn to change anyway.
 
Science includes self-correction mechanism. Self-correction mechasnim plus skeptism... Imposible to be a "religion"
 
Science explains a lot more than religion does...science explains many things very well.

But there is a belief that science can ultimately explain everything...this is far from proven, and therefore is nothing but faith in science.

If you see science as just one big wodge called 'science' you are missing the point. It is the scientific method which is important when it comes to establishing facts.

The principle that the scientific method does in fact work is proven beyond doubt. So in many ways science has displaced religion.
 
Religion is closed and science is open ended.
 
No, science will never be religion, and the simplest explanation to it is: science is too realistic for that.

See, due to science being very hard, it is true that the most uneducated brand of society accept the saying of the people versed in it as they accept the saying of religious authorities… as the given knowledge of a superior source. Simply put, many of the population of the world lacks the intelligence necessary to understand it, the education necessary to comprehend it, or they lack both. Those who aren’t among the few privileged enough to have both brains and schooling take it as gospel, not because science present itself that way, but because they cannot deny science power (as most people is benefited by some aspect of modern science in one or other direct way), and they receive over-simplified (and rather incomplete) versions of science findings as explanations they can reach for such achievements.

After all, a plane flying does sound like a miracle to those who do not have the faintest idea about what are combustion, engines and aerodynamics.

However, the hardness of science is not an invincible obstacle. Except those who are obtuse by birth – and there are those – any man can, given the opportunity, choose to study it, and studying it will actually teach the mechanisms behind it. In science, there are no mysteries that have to be accepted as so, and here, in this principle of understanding, lies the first and most fundamental difference between science and religion.

The second difference is being very underestimated in this very thread. It’s the fact that, unlike some people mentioned, science is not dogmatic. Quite the contrary, the very essence of science is the opening it has to new ideas, the fluent nature of knowledge, and the encouragement for revisionism of older ideas. It is the very anti-thesis of dogmatism, and people tend to brand science as so due to the fact that it stands by solid ideas even when they are unpopular to some part of society, namely the “creation X evolution” debates.

Science differs from religion entirely in this aspect, I’m sorry to say that to those who like to brand science as one of the kind. Great man of science are not entitled to state things arbitrarily, they have to be backed by testable and reproducible evidence – unlike great man of religion, that decides what is right or wrong out of their own heads, than after rely on “you can’t prove me wrong” (as if anyone could ever prove a negative).

The third aspect of difference, and this one also fundamental, is that science does not provide generic comfort. Unlike religion, that is all about loving deities, eternal lives and reward for the good versus punishment for the wicked, science deals only with material and measurable information, and it prescribes reality exactly in the best way our resources allow, whether we enjoy what we find or not. So yeah, to science, you will live this short life and that is it, no everlasting prorogation in a heavenly paradise. And yeah, if a bad man dies unpunished, sorry to say but he got away, no little devils with forks expecting him in a fiery hell.

Life is not intrinsically good, not intrinsically fair, and that is a harsh reality that science never runs away from. Whatever good we want, we have to build, we can’t count on celestial daddies to give it to us. And by lacking this tendency to give a (unrealistic) comfort, it will never replace the emotional place of religion in the heart of many man. A price it pays for it’s intellectual honesty.

Last but not least, science is universal, unrelated to people by their ethnical background, or by their acceptance of the scientific world. Science, defined as a “description of the reality”, does not need approval, and a surgery will save the life of even those who don’t believe in medicine. “Opening your heart” to it is insignificant, unlike religion, that only have appeal to those emotionally vulnerable to it.

Plain and simple, what happens is the fact that we are lucky enough to live in an era where science is in its prime, getting better and stronger by the minute, explaining the world more and more, and giving solutions to an enormous amount of problems that once were untouchable. And its outstanding efficiency grants science and the scientific method a growing trust with the population, a popularity that is the inevitable consequence of anything that is able to so positively change the life of people.

However, as science explains the world to us, and once it was (and in many aspects it still is) the role of religion, they tend to conflict. As the religious explanations are systematically and categorically been swallowed down by the far more reasonable, and extremely better substantiated scientific approaches to the same problems, science tends to gain more space, and religion tends to loose appeal.

Religion reacts to that in several manners, all of them counting with the deep roots it have in society. The first is to state that science is limited, hence not comparable with the absolutism of the believe – what is a complete inversion of reality, as its exactly because science accepts that it is not perfect what allows it to perfect itself into an unparalleled benchmark of efficiency; Second, by distorting science claims to make them sound ridicule (failing to see that saying that it is “absurd that a gorilla gives birth to a man” is only to equate science to it’s own level, that states that man is a “walking mud statue”*)

* - note: I used the creation X evolution example, but this is only allegoric, I don’t want to turn this into a creation X evolution thread.

Finally, when they realize that science will start appealing the population (in a distorted way, as I previously explained, but in a way that represents the basics of scientific thinking anyway), religious tries another shot by claiming that it is a new form of religion itself. This is basically an approach that tries to equate the two visions (to make it sound as if going for one instead of the other was just an aspect of taste, having nothing to do with the proficiency of the two paradigms), and a way to ignore that the reason for the growth of the ruthless, uncomforting claims of science before the fluffy “it’s gonna be alright” of religion is the fact that science is actually doing things to make life better, and it’s so undeniable that people cannot ignore it forever. So, science really does not promises, but it delivers anyway, and this will make people sensible to the fact that you can be good without being demagogic, and that in fact it’s easier to be good that way.

If one day the respect for science and its axiom replaces entirely religion – what a doubt will ever happen – we won’t have a new great religion on the world, what we will have is a principle of understanding and a solid grasp on reality as a humane trait, things that are quite lacking in the world presently.

But don’t worry, as long as there are people that wishes absolute answers and words of relief and of comfort (even if unrealistic), nothing ever will erase religion from the face of earth.

Regards :).

edit: a few wrong words that were ruining some sentences.
 
Originally posted by polymath
But there is a belief that science can ultimately explain everything...this is far from proven, and therefore is nothing but faith in science.

Having faith in science, well, its one thing, and rather justified considering how well its doing so far.

Stating that science is a new form of religion, as the original poster did, is a rather different - and unreasonable - thing.

Regards :).
 
Time for me to add the seemingly obligatory remark after something FredLC says:

Great post!
 
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