SAM-01 Smoke and Mirrors

[Norvin_Green]

Why I like the 'Henge over the other plans. It's like having a third trait. There is very little happiness on the map so HR is going to be important. We'd have to go down that part of the tech tree anyway. If we want we can play nicey nice with Nap and HC or stir up trouble. The map isn't exactly swimming in food either so income from a shrine spread everywhere might be important. If we miss the wonder we'll get cash to deficit research and catch up REX. Blocking Nappy (if he's even over there) is going to cost a bundle of which there aren't too many "bundles" out there on this map.

 

[Whosit]

Napoleon is probably up to the north west since that's where I spotted his scout (didn't really show in my screen shots). After some consideration, I figure we can divert to Mysticism to grab Stonehenge. With a chop or two, trying to time one to finish just before or as we start the 'henge, and another after that, we can probably knock it off pretty quick.

At that point, we could probably start teching to Theology (right?) while spitting out some settlers. The main reason I want to aggressively expand is because the land to the west has those rivers and floodplains and seems to be some of the best land we can currently see. I'd hate to lose it.

Edit: Sorry, meant Monotheism, assuming Judaism isn't founded by the time we get there.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

I've had a look at the save.

With the industrious trait and all the forest available, Stonehenge may be possible. If we're going to make a serious go for it, I'll make mysticism the next tech and build/whip a worker>warrior while it's going. The warrior would be for exploration, obviously. Then start the henge and chop it.

We could run into barbarian problems on this map as there's a lot of fog.

We have three conflicting dot maps. If it was up to me I'd go with the two river cities (like on Whosit's) for trade and commerce and access to the ocean for even more trade. Once we have bronze it'll all go out the window.

After mysticism I figure grab whatever worker techs are left, excluding hunting as that's usually easy to get in trade and I don't think we need it right away.

A riskier option is to build warrior > settler and get another city out before starting the henge.

In any event, I'd suggest we keep plans to the short term until we see if any of the early religions turn up and where the iron and bronze is.

 

[Glare Seethe]

We have lots of options, hmm.

First I need to correct myself - Stonehenge would not appear on the Wonders screen as unfinished wonders only show up there if the player is building them, not the AI. So there is no way to know if Huayna has already started on it. But it's still very very early in the game, I think it usually goes around 2000BC on Monarch.

We need to keep in mind that Napoleon will declare on us at one point. If we try to block him in too aggressively it will happen sooner rather than later, and the distance to the floodplains from our capital means reinforcements will take some time to arrive. At the same time we don't have a good source of commerce to pay for the city maintenance. I wouldn't worry about it if we were blocking in, say, Gandhi, but with Napoleon this becomes a bit riskier.

Both him and Huayna have plenty of room to REX into, which is why I think we can afford to build Stonehenge. And aside from the floodplains we haven't found any great sites that we need to rush to yet, though that could change in the next turnset depending on bronze and more scouting.

We should also keep The Oracle in mind. I hate to push for so many wonders, I really am not such a big wonderspammer as it may seem, but with so many forests and no huge rush to grab land... extra GP points for an earlier Prophet, plus free CoL or MC (cheap forges?) or HBR, etc. (I almost want to suggest wiping out our continent with Horse Archers).

Actually, maybe oracling Theology, then using the SH/Oracle GP to build the shrine is better than bulbing Theology. In the latter case we'd have to generate a second GP to get the shrine. But as Dave said, longterm plans can change any moment, for all we know Huayna's racing towards Monotheism.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

3250 Reviewed thread, hit enter. Heracles survives lion attack, sent to heal in woods.

3175 Incas ask for OB, accept as that makes it easier to explore what's north of him.

3150 Bronze working in, mysticism in 10. Stalingrad warrior > warrior.

3125 Heracles kills another lion. Soon they'll be extinct.

3025 Stalingrad warrior > worker. The mighty Heracles pops mighty experience from a mighty hut.

2900 Mysticism > Wheel.

2875 Warrior exploring tundra to south defeats a bear and is renamed Pavlov. After Sgt. Pavlov who had a famous house .

2600 Stalingrad completes Stonehenge > settler.

2575 Wheel > pottery, save game.

I suggest we take the next city site I flagged at the river bend. Also, let's keep developing riverside tiles so we have a bit of commerce coming in. Other than that, dunno, an Oracle slingshot is possible but I didn't do research with it in mind.

Whosit
Dave Hartwick
Glare Seethe (up)
radiofreestl (on deck)
Norvin Green
Xanthus

 

[Whosit]

Sounds like a good set, Dave. I'll be able to look at the save later, but scoring Stonehenge should satisfy most of our group.

I also applaud you for being more knowledgeable/less lazy than me and giving our brave warrior an honest Russian name. We can surely expect great things from Pavlov.

(And Heracles really is]/i] attracting the lions. Crazy scout.)

Edit: OK, took a quick peek. At first I was blind and thought that there was no copper on the entire continent. Heh. I agree, flagged site is good so it can pick up the copper when the borders expand (and it fits one of my dot maps ). It looks like the Incas will get bronze units, but at least they don't seem to have horses nearby. As far as Riverbend City goes, aside from picking up the copper, are we gonna put it on cottage duty to fund further expansion? And should we give Heracles the guerrilla training for added hill defense?

Also, one SG-newb question: What's the principle behind naming units Worker X (Stalingrad). Is there a benefit to tracking them like that?

Um, and so long as I'm gabbing, if I recall correctly, St. Petersburg actually comes up pretty quick in the Russian city list. Is there a way to skip it to save the name for St. Pete's city, or is it not worth bothering with because we probably won't settle south east any time soon?

 

[Dave Hartwick]

In hindsight, I would've like to've got a settler out prior to the henge, but it's not like there's a lot of pressure on city sites at the moment.

About the city naming bit, may I suggest that we name a city Petrograd in the scout's honor?

The Unit-number-(city of origin) naming convention is automatic with BUG.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Got it. Will take a look at it tonight and play the set tomorrow during the day (CET). Glad we have Stonehenge.

edit: also, we can change city names after they've been settled as well, so no need to worry about that.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Well, there is so much land on this continent it may well be enough for domination on its own.

My plan is to settle Dave's site with the settler currently being built, though I want to scout out that mystery tile first, while teching Meditation > Priesthood. Chop The Oracle, take Code of Laws for religion. We don't actually have to go all the way to Theology, it'd take too long.

The alternative is to tech Pottery and then take Metal Casting from The Oracle for cheap forges. That would be my backup if Huayna or Napoleon found Judaism in the meantime.

I also want to scout out the area directly to our north; sucks that Heracles can't take Woodsman III, we could've made him our super medic. I'll give him Combat instead. At least we have HE unlocked.

I don't know if I'll get through The Oracle in my turnset but that's my plan. Objections, comments, alternate suggestions? I plan to play in around, oh, 12 hours or so.

 

[Whosit]

It seems like a sound plan. But just so I understand, are we gunning for a religion in order to take advantage of shrine income? I do admit that it would help fund expansion . . . .

I think we should research Iron Working sooner rather than later so we know where it is, but I suppose that will have to wait until after Priesthood. I guess my only suggestion is to put out as many warriors as you can between the settler and the Oracle since Dave pointed out that we might have to worry about barbarian incursions soon.

 

[sturick]

Lurker question:

What kinda ugly mapscript did you run for this...extremely resource poor. I counted one fish tile one corn tile and no pigs. You guys have your work cut out for you on this one methinks.

Also did Bronze Working come in yet??? Because if you don't have any copper in sight you really are in a bind.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Nice turn set getting us Stonehenge, Dave. I also like the Russian names (I wouldn't count on that during any of my turns ) The city site looks great and in a mere 15 turns after settling we'll be able to hook up copper.
I'll restate my reasons why I'd like to see us get Theology. We can then build the AP and influence our neighbors coupled with the fact that there is very limited happiness (and for that matter the closest one is wines) and we will want Monarchy sooner rather than later. It practically takes us all the way to it. I don't care if we bulb it from the Oracle (which sounds great btw) or use a GP (of course if we bulb it the GP can create a shrineola) I'm not against CoL as with all this room we'll need that too but getting it doesn't help with the AP.
A few other things to note:
In 3 turns the horses to our north will be available to pasture for chariots. It also just so happens that our workers are right there chopping/mining. One can road and one can pasture and bingo we have access to some mobile defense.
As we are going to have copper and horses around I don't see the need to rush to IW as there hardly any jungle near us. I'd rather see us pick it up in trade later.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Hey sturick, nice to see you. I set it up with RandomMapScript (it randomly picks a map type between Arch, Pang, B & S, etc.) We just got a lousy draw this time. We'll be ok as there is copper nearby and horses will be available soon.

 

[sturick]

Lurker again:

I was looking at the next to last save on accident. Good that you have copper...i see that now.

Gonna be rough without the premium food resources so my suggestion would be to settle to the west in general as there are flood plains you can use for food. Plus the rivers are always good for the commerce. The land to the east is very plainsy and devoid of rivers so not especially good land.

Too early to say much else but I'll peek in every now and then to see how you are doing.

Good Luck!

 

[Whosit]

Don't worry, sturick. The Russian people are a sturdy and industrious people; if they can't eat pigs, they'll eat rocks.

I see the plan now, Norvin. If we get the AP, I actually hope we can manage to snag a second religion. If we can get Napoleon to join our religion and Huyana Capac to convert to the other . . . Nappy is the most aggressive out of the two, right? Tho' I wouldn't try to pursue that path, just if we happen to get CoL before anyone else.

 

[Glare Seethe]

It seems like a sound plan. But just so I understand, are we gunning for a religion in order to take advantage of shrine income? I do admit that it would help fund expansion . . . .

Yeah, my thinking was that since there is no religion on our continent yet and it seems it's just us, Huayna and Napoleon, we could found the dominant religion and take advantage of it. This situation is the only one when I ever bother to found a religion - if Huayna had gone for Hinduism or Buddhism I wouldn't bother since we can just adopt his. But unless he founds Judaism before we get The Oracle we have a nice opportunity to earn some shrine income and befriend our neighbors via shared religion.

The AP wasn't in my original plan, but since Norvin suggested it it does bring up an interesting point... Our land is kind of poor, let's face it. We could try to gun for extra hammers, beakers and gold with the AP, UoS and SM - the advantage being that we don't need good land to get these hammers and beakers, just buildings.

Theology is a bit further away, though. To Oracle it we'd have to research Masonry and Monotheism on top of Polytheism (instead of Meditation since we'd have to open up Mono) and Priesthood, and I'm concerned about losing The Oracle in that scenario. The alternative is to bulb it with our forthcoming Prophet, but if we do that we delay getting our shrine set up until the next GP. That's why I mentioned going for CoL - we still get the religion without delaying The Oracle, and we can immediately shrine it with the first GP we get.

I think the safe play would be to oracle CoL and use the GP for the shrine. But we don't have to go the safe route.

 

[Norvin_Green]

I don't think the safe play is bad here. By getting the Oracle built we can double the speed of our GP arriving and then build a shrine which will accelerate the 2nd GP which can bulb Theo for us if we want. We can also build a temple to hurry things along once we get CoL.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Turn 57 (inherited turn) - Give Heracles C1. Sign OB with Napoleon. We don't really need it but it's good for relations bonus. Set research to Meditation, send the warrior in the capital to scout out mystery fog tile around our proposed copper site.

Turn 58 - nada

Turn 59 - Pavlov finds marble. Rejoice.

Mine in Stalingrad is done so I switch to working it instead of plains farm, gaining one hammer. Doesn't make any difference to the number of turns for the settler, though.

Turn 60 - Stalingrad's borders expand. One worker begins roading the plains hill, the other starts on the horse pasture. The mystery tile turns out to be just grassland. Heracles spots a hut, but with only one movement turn left, I decide to leave him in the forest and pop it the next turn rather than leave him exposed. Hopefully nobody snags it before him.

Turn 61 - Heracles pops hut for Fishing...

...but lands right next to a panther. Maybe I should've given him Guerilla instead of Combat.

Turn 62 - RIP Heracles.

(yes I took this screenshot later)

Turn 63 - Worker has finished the road, so I send him to the riverside grassland to pre-chop a forest for The Oracle.

Turn 64 - nada

Turn 65 - Pasture complete. Worker will road it next turn.

Turn 66 - Settler complete, start on warrior.

Turn 67 - Forest pre-chopped to -2 turns. Cancel chopping order.

Turn 68 - Moscow settled, wasn't really sure what to build here. Chariot I guess? Warrior in Stalingrad finished, sending him to scout up north.

Turn 69 - Worker starts pre-chopping another riverside grassland forest. Second worker goes from the horse pasture to pasture the cows for Moscow.

I made a mistake and should've pre-chopped this forest, 1NW-1W from Stalingrad, first - as the worker was closer to it when he finished roading the hill on turn 63. Instead I sent him to the forest 1W of Stalingrad first, wasting worker turns.

Turn 70 - Meditation in, start Priesthood. Warrior done in Stalingrad, start chariot. Will send it to scout SE when it's done.

Turn 71 - Stalingrad grows to size 4. I can whip the chariot for 1 pop... I decide to go for it. Even though 1pop whips are inefficient (and without a granary, even!), the plains farm is not a great tile to work. I'd rather have the chariot a few turns sooner. I don't think we'll be doing a lot of whipping this game, though, our land is too food poor.

Turn 72 - Chariot's in, Stalingrad starts on another. Cancel worker's chopping orders as he's two turns away.

Turn 73 - Worker goes to road the corn. He'll be close enough to the two pre-chopped forests to get back to chopping once Priesthood's in. First barb archer appears, but I think it's too early for them to go into our cultural borders. Another chariot will be done in two turns, in any case.

Turn 74 - nada

Turn 75 - Chariot done. Two turns left for Priesthood, so I go with another warrior - he'll be done in two turns as well.

Turn 76 - Our warrior up north, Vladimir, runs into a barb warrior. I fortify him on the forested hill in anticipation of the battle. Pasture in Moscow done. Road on the corn's done.

Turn 77 - Vladimir bests his foe. Priesthood in, The Oracle due in 18 turns. Not sure what to tech here so I think it's time to end the round. There are no beakers invested in Masonry yet.

Notes:

- Worker in Moscow has just started roading towards the bronze. Borders will pop in 6 turns.
- Worker in Stalingrad has moved onto the pre-chopped forest.
- I sent the newest warrior to Moscow for more protection - although the chariot there will be done soon anyway.
- Vladimir is healing up north. He needs to scout that peninsula.
- Pavlov has finished scouting the SW tundra and is heading back up to the floodplains area to see where Napoleon is.
- Our chariot to the east should reveal that blob of fog, then swing down south towards St. Peter's final resting place. There are furs down there, it's worth knowing more.
- Stalingrad should be on max hammers until The Oracle is in. Once it grows to size 4 in 4 turns we should work the forested plains hill for even more production. We have 9 base production right now, so our 50% Industrious bonus is 4 (since it's rounded down).

With the extra 3 from that hill it'll be up to 12 for a total of 18 hammers, compared to our current 13. Saves us a lot of turns on The Oracle.

Here's a crappy dotmap of the south western tundra:

Still no Judaism, and no other wonders built. Espionage points still show that neither Napoleon nor Huayna know anyone else so at this point I think we can conclusively say it's just us three.

If we want to Oracle Theology we should take it off the queue with one turn to completion. Tech path should be Masonry > Polytheism > Monotheism in that case. A little risky but might be doable.

Otherwise I think Pottery should be next so we can lay down some cottages in both Stalingrad and Moscow. That's why I opted to chop the riverside grassland forests first - we can make more use of those tiles than any others.

Whosit
Dave Hartwick
Glare Seethe
radiofreestl (up)
Norvin Green (on deck)
Xanthus

 

[Glare Seethe]

Forgot the save, here it is.

I don't think the safe play is bad here. By getting the Oracle built we can double the speed of our GP arriving and then build a shrine which will accelerate the 2nd GP which can bulb Theo for us if we want. We can also build a temple to hurry things along once we get CoL.

You're right, the second GP won't take that long to generate with +4 GPP from the shrine and a priest specialist, on top of the Oracle/SH GPP (edit: assuming the religion is founded in Stalingrad that is. I'm unsure about the mechanics of this. If it ends up in Moscow the +1 GPP from the shrine won't help generate anything). We'll end up with both Confucianism and Christianity which will give us some flexibility when building the AP, depending also on which religion Huayna and Napoleon go for. Religious strife is nice but I think it'd be even nicer to have all three of us sharing one religion - we all know religious lovefests are dangerous when they're on the other continent, this time it could be on ours. Plus they will spread the religion for us on their own, saving us hammers on missionaries.

 

[Whosit]

Good turn set, Glare. I'm feeling good about our chances for the Oracle. Poor Heracles, though. Our luck with the huts was still good (not that we need fishing now, but a tech is a tech), but I guess Heracles was no good against anything but lions.

I'll take a look at the save and come back with more comments, but I think, since human barbarians are appearing, Moscow should stick to military builds until Stalingrad is finished with the Oracle, maybe whip a barracks when it has enough population to spare?

I'm still a little iffy on how well things'll work if all three of us have the same religion. I played a recent game (on prince, if that makes a difference) where I basically converted 7 out of the 9 AIs to Judaism, but that didn't stop them from pounding on each other (they left me alone, thankfully). We'll be in between Napoleon and Huayna Capac, so it worries me a bit, but perhaps I'm being a little too paranoid.

As far as the dotmap goes, the two greens look like good eventual filler towns (though green east should probably be founded sooner for the marble) since they grab some resources. Maybe with the silver mines they can pay their own maintenance, though I'd definitely grab the land north first. Purple/Pink might be good, though we probably need to see a little bit more of the north land first before we can be sure. So, as you said, next player should send Pavlov up in that direction.

Edit: Ok, so peeked around the save. I think CoL is the best shot with the Oracle since we're still 3 techs away from being able to research Theology. I'd recommend Pottery so we can get cottages up ASAP and also for Granaries. Granaries are always good, but they're probably critical since, as many have pointed out, we don't have a ton of food surpluses on the map.

I think Moscow can be made a cottage town, unless we want to farm it as a GP town? I'm still a little iffy on which towns should be made what since both types need food. We probably can't go wrong with commerce, though, and if we snag a town to the west with floodplains, that should have food for a GP farm, too. Don't mind my ramblings much as I'm still a bit inexperienced with specializing cities.