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San Pellegrino's Rogue State Strategy

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by SanPellegrino, Jan 24, 2002.

  1. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    Most games I've played on Monarch, 8 civs, large map with unmodified rules.

    Maybe you know that situation: When it comes to midgame, I found myself nearly always in front but with 2 or 3 major rivals that were too far away to deal with. The early wars are over, Democracy is now en vogue, and the AI begins to discover new techs every few turns, war isn't likely to occure. If you follow the normal path of tech-buying/selling, all you can hope for is a very close win in a world with megatons of pollution, because most civs get competitive.

    So I like to pick a civ as "rogue state" (sometimes they pick me:) ) and goad the whole world in war against them.
    I stay in republic, when everybody switches to democracy, beeline for suffrage and police stations and go to war with a big aggressive civ (which is easy to achieve, they always want something for tribute) on another continent.
    I sign military alliances with everyone against them, even with small civs far away from them. They want some some reward for this but it's worth it. I don't do much in that war, only build up my military an try to achieve naval superiority if necessary.
    If a civ signs a separate peace with the rogue state, I will renew the Alliance as soon as possible.
    After 20-25 turns all AI civs get very war-weary, their population sinks, disorder occurs and they are likely to sink in anarchy. (if they make peace - renew the alliance). After 30-40 turns I have achieved my goal - all civs are in less prospering government forms, cities are taken and retaken, they kill each other. I may have discovered some war weariness myself, but i am in republic and got suffrage, hopefully.

    Now I've got two paths to follow:

    1) make peace and watch the fight while developing. From my experience the AI is less likely to make peace when in less representative governments and also it seems like some kind of vendetta between them and the rogue state occurs, when I'm forced them to break peace treaties too often. Maybe you are the only one with a rep or demo now, which is a HUGE advantage.

    2) Join the party! The rogue state should be in a bad condition by now, having no one to trade with and losing a lot of units, pop and normally their little islands or cities on other continents. And now the smoke is gone I can easily claim their land - they where once a powerful civ, maybe it's worth it! ( I have to switch gov too)

    With this method I was able to achieve a huge civ2-like tech lead, while getting rid of a major opponent (at this point I do not trade techs anymore).

    Some AI civs suit better as rogue states than others.
    The rogue state should be
    - one of the major powers of the world, that way you get rid of an opponent, while they last longer than weak civs as "public enemy"
    - aggressive, they are less likely to sign peace treaties and switch to mon/comm early.
    - militaristic/build units often, to make sure they are not wiped out quickly or make peace because of weak forces.

    From my experience germans or aztecs suit best as rogue state, they build large empires, some infrastructure and a lot of units, they are also very aggressive and especially the germans are often in the tech lead. Zulus are not as good, because they build little infrastructure and tend to be backwards. The other aggressive civs like persians or english will do when they got big enough.

    I think this strat is not only powerful, but also fun, because a big military power can cause a lot of damage to the other AIs and there is always something happening. To be the "puppetmaster" is fun, too.

    Did anyone made similar experiences, or any ideas, comments or suggestions?
     
  2. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    I actually play entire games in this way sometimes. I simply stay in monarchy, and cause wars using MPPs and alliances every time I notice someone has switched to a representative government. It really slows down the advance of technology, making most wars long and stagnant. I try not to cause everyone to gang up on a civ that is far from me, because this causes everyone but me to gain territory.
     
  3. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    Good point, that's why I highly recommed using a really strong civ for the rogue purpose, they can normally defend their homeland, but not their outposts.
     
  4. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    Unfortunately, I find that once I set the entire world against even the strongest civ, it is only a matter of time before that civ collapses, and begins to lose cities like crazy. I usually pick a medium sized civ that I have a border with, that is running a very effective democracy. These are usually easy pickings, and within a few turns, I have taken the cities I want, and then let the rest of the world finish them off.
     
  5. Allemand

    Allemand Chief

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    I saw Germany hold off three civs for most of the game. I had organized the French, Zulus, and Romans against them, then I dropped out. The Germans never quit, although they were gradually being beaten down.
     
  6. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    It depends how many civs are left, the germans in my actual game hold off three civs, too.

    In nearly all my games the germans, persians and/or aztecs were the strongest combattants, due to their high aggressiveness and "build often offense units". But on the other hand, the Japanese with same attributes are wiped out or survive with few cities. I never saw them playing a major role. Infrastructure seems to matter, too, the Zulus are normally totally paralyzed in later stages.
     
  7. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    Some statistics from my current game:

    5 civs are left, I play Romans and share a continent with the both small indians and egyptians. I am ahead in pop and cities, but after 3 wars achieving that, I've got somewhat "overextended myself" and my infrastructure is totally underdeveloped. The Germans are in lead both tech and culture and have got the other continent for themselves, after smashing the japanese, which whom they shared it from the beginning. The English are on an island south of them (and managed to build oracle, gardens and sistine in London, arrgh). All are demo, I'm republic. Sooner then I wanted them, Germany attacked me with no reason (they got more units of course). So I made alliances with the rest against them. I only tried to build up modern forces (those Legionaries were great in the ancient wars, but now those well-trained soldiers upgrade to ... nothing!) and many ironclads to prevent invasions.

    So, that's the basic situation. The war started 1360, now it's 1600 = 52 turns

    - The English had war with the germans before that and after i initially bribed them to go to war, they never needed a second invitation. They also build a big fleet, so german ships are not likely to be seen anymore. Although they got sistine they fell into anarchy after 35 turns and switched to monarchy. They had same tech like me, but now they are 6-7 behind

    - The Indians and Egyptians both betrayed me once and signed peace with germany, but I was not angry with those little peaceful civs, just signed a new alliance... Now finally, both are Monarchy, but only the last few turns

    - The Germans were the first to fell in anarchy, about 25 turns, switched to monarchy (nobody has communism except me). They had a lot of well-developed size 12-cities that were drained to 7 or 8 after war-weariness occured (very funny to observe with a spy, 2 citizens, 6 or 7 entertainers). The Germans are now behind me in tech, but made a very good stance. They lost a few far-flung outposts, and their entire fleet of course, but defended their homeland successfully and were a terror most of the war. I was amazed when 6 knights, 2 cav and some pikemen landed on the borders of my only little island city (naturally the only one I couldn't get troops to in time).

    - Me. I'm still in republic and in tech lead now. I experience little war-weariness, none in cities with police stations (I've built suffrage). I got tanks now, and I think I switch to comm to finish off the germans before they got replaceable parts. The others are no match in science anymore.

    Situation has advanced into my favour now, the germans used to sell their advances to the others, they can't do this anymore and they all research much less.
     
  8. kentc

    kentc Chieftain

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    Lets you and him fight! That's my CivIII motto. I use this strat plus the science broker strat. Once you get the other civ's attacking each other, it's easy get ahead, and stay ahead. I always pick the biggest nation for the AI to beat on. Preferably after that civ just got done killing another civ. They are already war weary, but have lots of units. Takes a long time for them to die. Once they die, then I pick the next biggest. I had a blast last game...I was alone on a small continent with like 12 cities. There were 4 remaining civs on a supercontinent, and the lonly Germans on another island like mine. I just kept goading them to fight each other, until finally only the Germans and the Romans remained. I never set foot off my island, (I had a massive navy tho...carriers and bombers...) and won with the space race in 1917.
     
  9. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    I f you already find it, nice, why didn't you post it.?

    I learned a lot on these and other forums, so I try to give something back, when I think I found something.

    btw, a civ starting a new war, isn't war weary anymore. The count is reset for every new war.
     
  10. RAL2000

    RAL2000 Chieftain

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    Good strategy, which I have been using since I stumbled on it a few games ago. Thank you for posting and defining it so nicely Pellegrino. I like the moniker too - 'rogue state strategy'.

    The strategy is more attractive than I thought it would be because the AI seems to be willing to attack another country more readily than I remember to be the case in Civ2. And recruiting even pipsqueak nations into the alliance seems to confuse the AI nicely. The AI does not prioritize threats well when it is fighting several nations at once.

    The Pellegrino Rogue State Strategy -- kind of sounds like a chess opening doesn't it?
     
  11. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    thx, btw I played chess at a club and still on chess.net, maybe it's because of that:)

    To Kentc: sorry, my post to you sounds somehow impolite, don't know why, was too lazy to write I think:confused:
     
  12. Black Waltz

    Black Waltz Prince

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    *lol* That is the first thing that I ever did when playing the game. Of course it wasn't on purpose. Germany demanded my spices off me, but I denied him and he declared war on me. I then contacted all my allies in other countries (which pretty much surounded him) and they all beat him to the ground. From 1st place to dead. Ok, I suppose that the other counties did gain more cities, but the good thing is that it sparked off a few border control wars too. Very fun to me sitting on the outskirts of it all. :)
     
  13. FrostFire

    FrostFire Chieftain

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    I did that to the Persians once.It was early Middles and they were the most powerful after me os I decided to take them out early and got every single country I knew to wage war against them.We succeded I got 6 cities almost for free and the Persians were left with 5 cities total.It was really fun.
     
  14. Greadius

    Greadius :yeah:

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    I've been using that strategy since I started playing, even though I never thought it out like that.

    Just in my first few games I became the punching bag for other civs, so by the time I started playing on huge maps with reasonable difficulty I learned of the need to divert the attention.

    On the game I'm playing now in Marla's world map, Germans made the demands on me (What is it with germans?) that I refused, and we were at war.

    I got the English, French, Russians, Romans, AND Greeks to declare war on them. Germany is the only nation that gained territory in that war, besides a few island colonies the English picked off. It was pathetic. Yet in Germany's peace deal with me they still paid.

    Oh well, in a few hundread years I'll cross the Atlantic and do the job right.
     
  15. Black Waltz

    Black Waltz Prince

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    *lmao* They have Bismarck as a leader, he's probably seeking a way to unify Germany or something like that... If you ever play as the French and he meets with you promising riches if you stay out of a war, don't trust him... :p

    (If you don't know anything about German history, ignore that. :p)
     
  16. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    :) :)

    But it's true, germans are aggressive and often have a lot of decent units, so they often smah entire civs. The only other civ with such a high Aggr rating are the zulu but hey have often herdes of obsolete units running around. Persia got also big in all the games I saw them.
     
  17. Greadius

    Greadius :yeah:

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    I provided economic aid to some of Germany's opponents. Much to my surprise they managed to secure Egyptian & Persian allies and ended up crushing Germany VERY quickly after the initial German victories (within 10 turns germany went from large empire to historical blurp). I'm scared of those Europeans, and the Persians now.

    I wish there was a way to have mercenary units work with other Civs so I can fight proxy wars more easily.
     
  18. LeroyJr

    LeroyJr Chieftain

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    This is a great strategy that I have used often. Ussually they declare war on me and then I get all of their neighbors to go and kick the hell out of them. If they are aggressive like the Germans their neighbors are generally ready to go with them at all times.

    I have also found this strategy to be important because often I have found wars with my neighbors escalade into World Wars. Eventually no one is neutral so if they are not with you, they are against you. Better to jump first in that gig and have them on your side before the Germans or Zulu's have them on their side.

    The weaklings are always interesting because the AI seems to attack at the place it stands the greatest chance of victory. They will take out useless bordertowns rather than my production centers because they are easier. A human player would rather take out a production city to cripple the opponent. The AI does not adequately decide where the greatest threats come and neutralize it.

    This is why the AI loves to capture workers and settlers. Raze a big city and spread those workers out all over the place. The AI sees a sure victory over a worker and sends all its units after them. Meanwhile my stack of 22 cavalry two squares outside their capital does not take a single hit. I personally (and I assume most humans) would throw everything they had at the Cavalry stack instead of chasing around useless workers. The Cavalry is the security risk not the workers after all. AI prefers to win battles while I prefer to win wars.
     
  19. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    Greadius, Mercenaries are a cool idea and would be easy to implement, since you can give away workers to others.

    Leroy, I made the same experience, who's not with us must be against us!;)
     
  20. brownbomber

    brownbomber Chieftain

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    Unfortunately, I was playing a game on regent level. I just got in the Industrial age and just learned nationalism when Rome, Germany, Zulus, French, America and Russia declared war on me without warning. I had MPP's with India, but they were on the other side of the world. I'm still alive but could use advice. It's only my 3rd game
     

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