sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
I always thought the science budget represented economic diversions into research and government subsidies.
Schools
- Thread starter kulgan
- Start date
Although I agree with you Trip - I think that Teabeard has got a good suggestion here.
And if you hear me out I think i can show how it all fits together.
In the ancient times, before there was a schools system, you had liberias and other places of learning which was only available to the very few -usually those in power or with money. Then, afterwards - a public school system was put in place through out a lot of countires - although be it a very basic one to start with.
So, Trip - if you don't mind me saying, I think Teabeard has got the right apporach. It is historically correct to have liberaies and such to be build first, and then after you've build a certain amount of liberais one can say that you've reaching a level of thinking to suggest that you believe education is important - and that it should be available to the masses.
At the time of the Great LIbary there was no public school system.
I think that we should include school's, but Teabeard has made a very valid point here. And I got nothing against a small wonder being built - It should be available to all civ's to build. The Small Wonder could have vast reaching effects throughout your empire - and basically represents you having a public school system through out your empire.
However, like the hoover dam - it gives you a Hydro in every city but then again it doesn't stop other civ's from bulding their own hydro improvment seperatly. I'm not sure how to handle it - but I think a small wonder like Teabeard said is a great idea.
And if you hear me out I think i can show how it all fits together.
In the ancient times, before there was a schools system, you had liberias and other places of learning which was only available to the very few -usually those in power or with money. Then, afterwards - a public school system was put in place through out a lot of countires - although be it a very basic one to start with.
So, Trip - if you don't mind me saying, I think Teabeard has got the right apporach. It is historically correct to have liberaies and such to be build first, and then after you've build a certain amount of liberais one can say that you've reaching a level of thinking to suggest that you believe education is important - and that it should be available to the masses.
At the time of the Great LIbary there was no public school system.
I think that we should include school's, but Teabeard has made a very valid point here. And I got nothing against a small wonder being built - It should be available to all civ's to build. The Small Wonder could have vast reaching effects throughout your empire - and basically represents you having a public school system through out your empire.
However, like the hoover dam - it gives you a Hydro in every city but then again it doesn't stop other civ's from bulding their own hydro improvment seperatly. I'm not sure how to handle it - but I think a small wonder like Teabeard said is a great idea.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
What are the Libraries in Civ supposed to represent, the private libraries of aristocrats or public libraries? The implimentation in the game suggests the latter. Public education has had a much greater impact and if you want to be ahistorical, I would rather lean in that direction. 
I'd say it represents the private libraries of the philosopher class
Note that in ancient times, the philosopher class was very talkative, and kept no secrets from each other, not even respecting national boundaries. So even though their libraries were private, that didn't mean they didn't get read by others. However, they didn't get readby teh masses - only by those who would have been most able to mke use of the information in them.
Note that in ancient times, the philosopher class was very talkative, and kept no secrets from each other, not even respecting national boundaries. So even though their libraries were private, that didn't mean they didn't get read by others. However, they didn't get readby teh masses - only by those who would have been most able to mke use of the information in them.
slyda
Chieftain
maybe schools can be a small wonder, that way it can put a school in every city like most of us experience. a school can be deermined by a sub-set of the science advisor, ie what the curriculum is. a science-based school would make great unis, a arts absed system would make better colloseums and a literacy based system would improve relations with other nations. or something.
Mr. Blonde
Dr. techn.
There is no society without an educational system. In ancient societies things are taught by eldars or medicine men, then come philosophers and scholars, then monasteries and education by churches and finally education is institutionalised by the governments. Education is always there and the science budget is imo representing public funding of education. There is no need for a special school building as education is, although in different appearances, generic to every society.
now we move from a small wonder to a slider - the old adaj - give em a yard and they'll take a mile comes to mind here.
I disagree with you mr blonde - the type of education system your talkin about is basically old stories and tales handed down genereation after generation or old herb lore and such - That kind of education was different in comparison to the Great Library where not only did they just record knowledge but sort to gather new knowledge.
Also Education in the form of schools is a completly different kind then to the one your talkin about -they didn't have maths education in your old way model - verbal model and many other sciences as well were not known, it was more of a verbal form of recording history and tales and other such practices - tradition and that. This is completly different from the libary model where the elite would gather and exchange and learn old and new ideas - you can not call what your refering to an education system in comparision to the schools/libaries system.
I think you are making an incorrect comparison.
I disagree with you mr blonde - the type of education system your talkin about is basically old stories and tales handed down genereation after generation or old herb lore and such - That kind of education was different in comparison to the Great Library where not only did they just record knowledge but sort to gather new knowledge.
Also Education in the form of schools is a completly different kind then to the one your talkin about -they didn't have maths education in your old way model - verbal model and many other sciences as well were not known, it was more of a verbal form of recording history and tales and other such practices - tradition and that. This is completly different from the libary model where the elite would gather and exchange and learn old and new ideas - you can not call what your refering to an education system in comparision to the schools/libaries system.
I think you are making an incorrect comparison.
Mr. Blonde
Dr. techn.
I agree with a slider, but what impact would it have? Maybe they should abandon science and lux and instead add education and a health/welfare slider. Education would increase the science output and add to happiness as the other would increase growth (less corn needed to fill the pool) and also add to happiness.
To what extent is to be discussed, but pure science funding and luxury dont feel like "real world", imo.
To what extent is to be discussed, but pure science funding and luxury dont feel like "real world", imo.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
I always saw Luxury as money the government did not take in taxes and people did not put toward developement. The only two other directions that trade can go is into luxury wealth or the military.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
I think of anything, the only imrpovement the slider system needs is more fractions of percentages. Maybe 5% would do about right. aLso, research beakers should spill over into the next advance or the computer shoul auto-MM the reserach for max efficiency, with parameters from the player of course.
Mr. Blonde
Dr. techn.
@meniwa:
The ancient educational systems (pre library and school) were not as useless as you describe it. How would you transport information without a written alphabet? Do not mistake these stories as simple tales- they transport information in an easy to remember way. If you enjoy such a story because it is entertaining you dont forget it and the contained information. The human mind stores information when packed into a story or a picture much more easier than pure dry numbers or equations. The story system was very efficient and modern ditactic techniques have their basis there.
The ancient educational systems (pre library and school) were not as useless as you describe it. How would you transport information without a written alphabet? Do not mistake these stories as simple tales- they transport information in an easy to remember way. If you enjoy such a story because it is entertaining you dont forget it and the contained information. The human mind stores information when packed into a story or a picture much more easier than pure dry numbers or equations. The story system was very efficient and modern ditactic techniques have their basis there.
yes, but don't confuse the recording of history with advancing in and finding new knowledge.
Yes, I remeber a story a thousand years ago, but I have made no new knowledge, i'm just reciting the old tales.
Difference between this and the libaries/Great Libary is that new knowledge was also sort after. It was a revolutionary way of learning, and of exploring the new . . .
Yes, I remeber a story a thousand years ago, but I have made no new knowledge, i'm just reciting the old tales.
Difference between this and the libaries/Great Libary is that new knowledge was also sort after. It was a revolutionary way of learning, and of exploring the new . . .
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
Libraries are a written record and can hold more knowledge then oral tradition, but both are based upon the 'narrative paradigm' described by Mr. Blonde above. I do agree that the Library system usually encouraged the gathering of intellectuals, as did Universities. Its the colloboration of minds that causes science to advance.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I have only read part of the thread.
It might be nice to have different civ's affect eachother by level of education and other things.
Mainly i mean to represent the real world situation where the western world has a very high level of eductation, but also high payment, causing science to increase for us. Uneducated jobs however move to other countries (asia in real world situation) As they have lower payments there. So while science is increased, production could be decreased.
With the higher payment in the western world, we have a much bigger gnp than the countries that actually produce stuff (in asia). With that, we are able to buy the stuff they produce.
The western world only has a small portion of the world population. Asia has a large portion of the world population. Asia produces lots of stuff. The western world consumes lots of stuff (way more than their share of the world population).
This hangs together with the difference in gnp (or gnp per capita) and thus the difference in job payment.
(i just can't help to think of it as that we are kind of abusing other countries. They produce, we consume. Sure we don't use military force to achieve this, we just somehow got them into this economically)
I think it would be nice to implement at least some of this real world macro economy model in civ.
It would require HUGE changes in the civ gameplay system, but its just something i think of now. I think it would be a good change that will seperate civ4 from civ3 considerably. It aint easy of course.
It might be nice to have different civ's affect eachother by level of education and other things.
Mainly i mean to represent the real world situation where the western world has a very high level of eductation, but also high payment, causing science to increase for us. Uneducated jobs however move to other countries (asia in real world situation) As they have lower payments there. So while science is increased, production could be decreased.
With the higher payment in the western world, we have a much bigger gnp than the countries that actually produce stuff (in asia). With that, we are able to buy the stuff they produce.
The western world only has a small portion of the world population. Asia has a large portion of the world population. Asia produces lots of stuff. The western world consumes lots of stuff (way more than their share of the world population).
This hangs together with the difference in gnp (or gnp per capita) and thus the difference in job payment.
(i just can't help to think of it as that we are kind of abusing other countries. They produce, we consume. Sure we don't use military force to achieve this, we just somehow got them into this economically)
I think it would be nice to implement at least some of this real world macro economy model in civ.
It would require HUGE changes in the civ gameplay system, but its just something i think of now. I think it would be a good change that will seperate civ4 from civ3 considerably. It aint easy of course.
