Schools

[Jon Shafer]

And Libraries aren't?

The city I live in has 16 Libraries. It also has around 35 schools. It has 1 university.

You cannot tell me that Schools are a "local concern" while at the same time including Libraries. Cutting out both in favor of universities I can understand, but saying one and not the other doesn't make sense.

 

[slyda]

what about funding schools changing their abilities. for example with luxeries and a high science rate the schools are going to be more effective than a poorly funded school. in a ddition schools only came into existence around 150 years ago, so what technology would it be connected to. does government type affect what your school's qualities are?

 

[rhialto]

Steady on guys. We've gone from adding a new city improvement to creating an entire SE model based off one building. Let's not get carried away on such details.

 

[sir_schwick]

And American public schooling in its current incarnation came about 150 years ago. A lot of the tradition of education of the young in Western society would originate in Ancient Hellenes(Greece).

 

[Teabeard]

And Libraries aren't?

The city I live in has 16 Libraries. It also has around 35 schools. It has 1 university.

You cannot tell me that Schools are a "local concern" while at the same time including Libraries. Cutting out both in favor of universities I can understand, but saying one and not the other doesn't make sense.

You can think of Libraries and Universities as already including schools. It's just like temples and Cathedrals can be thought of as including Churches. See what I mean? Adding too many redundant buildings equals more work and less fun.

 

[menwia]

And American public schooling in its current incarnation came about 150 years ago. A lot of the tradition of education of the young in Western society would originate in Ancient Hellenes(Greece).

And remeber - the U.S. School system isn't such a great example to take as well - its one of the worst school systems in all of the world's developed countries. . . surprising that, but then again just look at the infa-structure within the States - Electricy/rail - you name it - you'd think you're in a developing country if it were not for all the fast food joints . ..

 

[Jon Shafer]

You can think of Libraries and Universities as already including schools. It's just like temples and Cathedrals can be thought of as including Churches. See what I mean? Adding too many redundant buildings equals more work and less fun.

No, Temples ARE churches, just without the specific religious connotation (i.e. Christianity). The concept of a Library, a primary/secondary school and university are very different.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com:

Temple: A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or worship.

Church: A building for public, especially Christian worship.

Notice any similarities?

 

[Teabeard]

Ok, how about including Shrines and Altars then? After all, those are a micro-version of temples/cathedrals, just as Schools are a micro-version of Universities. How about including wells as a micro-version of aqueducts? See, this get's ridiculous.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Schools have more of an impact on society than shrines or wells ever have or will.

They're much more than "micro-universities." Civilizations that have proper school systems vs. those that don't are usually VERY different. You can't say the same about shrines or wells.

You do realize that one of the largest expenditures of tax income is for public schooling, right? That enough should be an indicator of how important they are to society and civilization.

 

[Teabeard]

Schools have more of an impact on society than shrines or wells ever have or will.

They're much more than "micro-universities." Civilizations that have proper school systems vs. those that don't are usually VERY different. You can't say the same about shrines or wells.

You do realize that one of the largest expenditures of tax income is for public schooling, right? That enough should be an indicator of how important they are to society and civilization.

And Universities already cover schools. No civ game has ever had schools, and I hope it stays that way because there is too many buildings to build already.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Just as much as Temples should be "covered" by Cathedrals.

You're being selective based on no logic. Schools are more important than Libraries. I would go so far as to get rid of Libraries in favor of Schools.

 

[Teabeard]

How does it translate into game terms? It's inconceivable for some tech to come out of schools, so I don't believe they deserve a research bonus.

 

[Jon Shafer]

There are a variety of ways to impliment schooling. Research is only one of them. I don't see why they should have less of an effect on research than Libraries. Primary education raises the bar for all of society and allows potentially brilliant people a chance at higher education. If Einstein was born on a farm and had no public schooling, do you think he would have accomplished much?

Schooling improves all of society. Literacy, productivity, knowledge... these are all positive effects of Schooling. The effects could be varied, from the traditional research bonus all the way to affecting things across the city (but not imbalancingly so).

 

[Teabeard]

Does it make sense then that in the year 2000 some cities would be without schools? This is the problem when you make it into a structure because not every city will have them, which is extremely unrealistic in the modern era. And what about private schools which offer superior quality education? I think introducing schools opens a huge can of worms... you'd have to rewrite all the game mechanics basically. You'll have to introduce the concept of literacy, and figure out how that is going to mean something in game terms.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Introducing schools doesn't open up any "cans of worms" that are harder to deal with than Universities. What about state vs. private universities? Technical institutes? Community colleges? Universities are simplified, schools can be the same way. I don't see you complaining about the simplification of Universities.

How does it make sense to have no schools in 2000? Go to Third World countries and you'll see. Cities not having schools in 2000 makes as much sense as cities not having a Courthouse or a Police Station. And yet a lot of the time you won't see EITHER in a Civ 3 game.

 

[Teabeard]

Introducing schools doesn't open up any "cans of worms" that are harder to deal with than Universities. What about state vs. private universities? Technical institutes? Community colleges? Universities are simplified, schools can be the same way. I don't see you complaining about the simplification of Universities.

How does it make sense to have no schools in 2000? Go to Third World countries and you'll see. Cities not having schools in 2000 makes as much sense as cities not having a Courthouse or a Police Station. And yet a lot of the time you won't see EITHER in a Civ 3 game.

Well, how about this: if you have a certain number of libraries in your cities you can build a minor wonder called "national school system" which represents schools in an abstract way? It would offer some bonuses, but require alot to maintain.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Again, I would rather have Schools than Libraries. Schools have had more of an impact than Libraries hands down. I would rather you build schools with the option of building a "national library system."

 

[rhialto]

The idea that private schools necessarily offer a superior education is a myth. I should know; I teach at one.

But seriously, in Japan at least, private schools cater to two distinct markets; the seriously clever, who would thrive in any decent school; and the seriously stupid, who would have failed the usual SHS entrance exams. In the latters' case, the private school offers the family a way to avoid the shame of having a kid not able to enter SHS.

 

[douche_bag]

there should just be a school taxation instead of building all these schools.

 

[rhialto]

I think that's what the bulk of the "science" budget actually gets spent on.