Science City vs Commerce City

[kasdoffe]

I've been playing Vanilla Civ4 for several months now and actually have never finished a game! Not that I get beat, just that I keep starting over as I learn something new.

So, lately I've been reading these strategy forums and specifically some strat articles on focusing each city on a specific task: production, commerce, science, great person, etc..

I see posts on making a city a Science city and a Commerce city. I guess I'm a bit confused. Is a science city without specialists just the same as a commerce city without specialists and/or religious shrines? Banks and Markets affect both the same don't they? If you have a religion then that city generates more gold vs beakers, so it's a commerce city? And, if a building modifies your beakers, say +10%, wouldn't it be wise to build those in a commerce city as well?

I have other questions, but not sure how to ask them. This works for now..

Thanks

 

[Fosse]

If you are running a cottage economy then you tend to have A science city and multiple commerce cities. THE science city is the one that gets an Acadamy, Oxford University, and all beaker enhancing improvements. When you have a specialist to run, you run a scientist. And if you decide to settle a Great Scientist, this is the city you do it in. If you get the Great Library, it goes in the Science City.

Commerce cities will be either lesser science cities, gold cities, or a mix of the two depending on where your tax/science/culture slider is. These cities it's usually building both beaker and gold enhancing buildings unless you are running at 100% or 0% science in which case those buildings are useful only for secondary functions (like market happy faces). These cities should get whatever specialists are most beneficial for your current needs and infrastructure, be they scientists, merchants or something else.

Shrine cities should always get gold enhancing facilities first. They should also get Wall Street.


So a generic science city (not with Oxford, Academy, Great Library) is the same as a generic commerce city (without shrines, Wall Street). Either generic commerce city should get libraries, markets, Universities, Banks, etc eventually unless you are usually running at 100% science.

 

[svv]

Well, you start with a commerce city. This is a city where you put down (or plan to put down) a whole bunch of cottages and/or other commerce improvements (gold mines, gem mines, silver mines, uranium mines, etc.). Other things that help are foreign trade routes and being the capital (which gives a commerce bonus, and also gives a percentage commerce bonus if you run bureaucracy.

Then, that city can be made to generate science or generate money. There are three variables which affect which way the city goes.

One is the slider. If the slider is set mostly to science, most of that city's commerce will generate science. The slider can be changed turn to turn. The problem is that it can only be changed for your entire empire, not just that city.

Two is improvements. Primarily National wonders. If you build (or plan to build) Oxford in the city, it will give a percentage boost to science. If you build or plan to build Wall Street, it will give a percentage boost to money. Regular city improvements (library, bank, etc.) also boost science or money, but unlike national wonders you can build these in all your cities. Building improvements can be targeted city by city according to your goals for that city, but cannot be changed turn to turn.

Three is specialists. A "commerce city" relies primarily on terrain commerce generated from cottages and other improvements, which means that you probably won't have many specialists. But, the few you have can give a direct add to science or money. The nice thing about them is they can be changed city to city AND turn to turn.

Personally, whenever I build a "commerce city," it ends up being a science city. I prefer to rely on a religion/specialist city (shrines, lots of farms, merchant and priest specialists, Wall Street, National Epic or Globe Theatre) for money. A city like this isn't dependent on commerce to generate most of its money, so you can set your commerce slider mostly to science, and still generate a ton of money from a specialist city.

But, I suppose it's possible to go the other way - set up a "commerce city" to generate money, and count on specialists for your science. I have never done this, but I think some advocates of "specialist economies" here can tell you how that works out for them. One advantage to going that way would be the fact that if you run representation, each of your specialists provides a plus three science bonus.

 

[Uncle E]

Welcome to CFF Kasdoffe!

Haha i do the same ... start alot of games and never finish too many as im always learning something new.

Its good to plan out your science city so that you can fit the Oxford University (100% research boost - remember you only can have 2 national wonders in a city and build them only once) ... and the Great Library for the 2 scientists (+3 beakers) ... having your capital as the science city works nicely too along w the bureaucracy civic that gives a 50% base commerce boost (and 50% hammer boost) ... add the academy from a GS and a library 25% boost, university 25% boost, observatory 25% boost + all the 10% boosts from as many religious monastaries you build ... add more scientist specialists + merged GS along w/ lots of cottages and a financial civ and you've got one powerhouse science city!

 

[Excl]

I think you're confused because a science city is a specialization of a Commerce city. Generally, if you have a Commerce city, you have to pick between science or money-making sub-specialization ... because you won't have a lot of available production to build both schools and banks. The slider is going to give your city both science and money output, anyway. If you have time to build both a university and a bank, then you aren't hurting yourself to do so. It's only when you have 1 hammer's worth of production, and it takes 80 turns to get a bank, that you have to decide if you want the city to be more science or more money oriented.

 

[Nightmare99]

Well, you start with a commerce city. This is a city where you put down (or plan to put down) a whole bunch of cottages and/or other commerce improvements (gold mines, gem mines, silver mines, uranium mines, etc.). Other things that help are foreign trade routes and being the capital (which gives a commerce bonus, and also gives a percentage commerce bonus if you run bureaucracy.

Then, that city can be made to generate science or generate money. There are three variables which affect which way the city goes.

One is the slider. If the slider is set mostly to science, most of that city's commerce will generate science. The slider can be changed turn to turn. The problem is that it can only be changed for your entire empire, not just that city.

Two is improvements. Primarily National wonders. If you build (or plan to build) Oxford in the city, it will give a percentage boost to science. If you build or plan to build Wall Street, it will give a percentage boost to money. Regular city improvements (library, bank, etc.) also boost science or money, but unlike national wonders you can build these in all your cities. Building improvements can be targeted city by city according to your goals for that city, but cannot be changed turn to turn.

Three is specialists. A "commerce city" relies primarily on terrain commerce generated from cottages and other improvements, which means that you probably won't have many specialists. But, the few you have can give a direct add to science or money. The nice thing about them is they can be changed city to city AND turn to turn.

Personally, whenever I build a "commerce city," it ends up being a science city. I prefer to rely on a religion/specialist city (shrines, lots of farms, merchant and priest specialists, Wall Street, National Epic or Globe Theatre) for money. A city like this isn't dependent on commerce to generate most of its money, so you can set your commerce slider mostly to science, and still generate a ton of money from a specialist city.

But, I suppose it's possible to go the other way - set up a "commerce city" to generate money, and count on specialists for your science. I have never done this, but I think some advocates of "specialist economies" here can tell you how that works out for them. One advantage to going that way would be the fact that if you run representation, each of your specialists provides a plus three science bonus.

How can lots of farms give you lots of money through mercahnt specialists?

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

How can lots of farms give you lots of money through mercahnt specialists?

You run lots of gm's through caste system.

 

[svv]

How can lots of farms give you lots of money through mercahnt specialists?

Lots of farms enable you to support the specialists. Each specialist eats two food, just like any other population point, but they are not getting their own food to support themselves. You need other residents working the farms, getting more food than they eat themselves, to support specialists.

Your city also needs to have the capability to employe the specialist(s). As Civtastic says, this can be done through caste system. It can also be done by having the proper improvements, such as marketplace, bank and wall street, each of which enables you to put in a certain number of merchant specialists.

If you have merchant specialists in, each of them gives you a certain amount of gold - I think it's three each - going directly to the bottom line without being affected by the slider percentage. You'll get the three gold even if you're on 100 percent science on the slider. Plus, this will be increased by percentage bonuses such as for marketplace, bank, grocer, and wall street - again not affected by the slider.

Finally, indirectly, having merchant specialists increases the chance that you'll get a merchant GP, which you can either use for a trade mission for instant cash, or to make resident as a super specialist in your money city for more gold going to the bottom line, and even a free food point!

 

[zagnut]

For a good strategy article on specialized cities see the article "Guide to City Specialization and Land Improvements" in the War Academy. A link to the War Academy can be found on the main page in the left sidebar.

 

[GoodGame]

If nothing else the difference is the specialists (Scientists or Merchants) and whether you build Research or Wealth.

And obviously I'm going to build the Oxford in my Science city,....but I might also build Wall Street there too if it's convenient. Arguably your prospective for Science city is the city that would be your best Commerce city. Also the Commerce cities didn't build libraries/universities/monasteries/observatories, unless there was nothing else to build.

 

[Preston85]

How do you decide to make a specialist city over a cottage city?

My thought is cottage where theres a river, specialist if your city is near a lake or not many river tiles.

Or is it better to do one or the other for all of your commerce cities?

 

[wathombe]

Enlightening thread, thanks.

(Brief p.o.v.: I'm a casual Civ player from Civ 2 days and have been playing Civ 4 on and off for the past year. (I registered for this forum in 2002 and this is only my second post. ) I do fine at low levels, but begin to have difficulty at the hardest of warlord, prince, or noble (I forget the order). I've finally read up on specialist cities and am trying my hand at them.)

Two questions (and numerous sub-questions):

1) Someone mentioned above that the slider can't be set city-by-city. Is that because the game would just be too easy if it could?

2) How do culture cities fit into the specialist city paradigm? Are they also specialized commerce cities? (Obviously culture can be effected by wonders and specialists, but should culture cities be cottage cities or not?) How much science and wealth can one sacrifice on the slider if pursuing a cultural victory, and at what point in the game?

Thanks for any info!

 

[Excl]

I've finally read up on specialist cities and am trying my hand at them.)

Was my article one of the ones you read?

Two questions (and numerous sub-questions):

1) Someone mentioned above that the slider can't be set city-by-city. Is that because the game would just be too easy if it could?

Yeah, probably. You would just crank up all your money cities to money and science cities to science.

2) How do culture cities fit into the specialist city paradigm? Are they also specialized commerce cities? (Obviously culture can be effected by wonders and specialists, but should culture cities be cottage cities or not?) How much science and wealth can one sacrifice on the slider if pursuing a cultural victory, and at what point in the game?

I would think that culture cities would likely be your production cities, since it would be easiest to build wonders and other cultural improvements there.

 

[DaveMcW]

If you're pursuing a cultural victory, the top 3 cities should be covered with cottages and have every cathedral possible.

 

[wathombe]

Thanks for the input, guys. I knew about the cathedrals (I've played a few cultural wins before at lower difficulty levels), I just wasn't sure how to work culture cities into the commerce or production city model.

Excl: Yes, yours was the first one I read.

 

[eluciv]

Allow me to think out loud for a sec. I've been debating the following in my head for a while...

Since the Great Library only gives extra beakers (not a multiplier), I question the need to build this in my main "science" (read: capital) city. The extra 6 beakers from the capital's Academy is not worth the risk of letting the AI have it (and depriving me of all those GSs). I also think "shrine city" may be a better descriptor of ""commerce city", since it's the only way a city can get a disproportionately higher raw amount of gold than any other city (sans Minaret).

Unless I bee-line to Literature (on higher levels), I'm risking not being able to build the GL in my science city before the AI does. Why wouldn't I want to build the GL in a GP/wonder city instead? As long as there is a library (and later a Uni/Observatory), it will still add the same number of beakers as in any other city without an Academy. One thing I also notice is that having the GL tends to keep me from grabbing Scientific Method until way late. This is probably something I should get over. But pop rushing the GL handicaps me in a way I think may harm as much as benefit - short term.

There's most often going to be an early battle between your wonder city and your science city as far as making GPs, so I have trouble declaring any city a "GP" farm early. That's if you settle your great scientists. I tend to focus on popping scientists more than any other GP, so settling them in my "science city" effectively turns that city into the GP farm by mid-game anyway. The fact that the G Library makes them pop from a different city in the early game really makes no difference in the long run - they end up in the same place when they're not lightbulbing techs.

My point is that things that add pure coin or beaker can get easily lumped in/equated with commerce - and there's a definite case to be made for viewing them each independently.

 

[axident]

Lots of good comments on this thread!

I would just like to add that if you are running Representation, it's almost always worth it to build some science-boosting buildings in ALL of your cities, even the ones that are producing negligible commerce but have enough food that they are capable of running specialists.

And it IS always worth it if you run Mercantilism and/or have the Statue of Liberty (or have University of Sankore and have a state religion and the religious buildings to go with it), because those two alone will give a minimum +6 beakers to each city, no matter how low-food and commerce-starved.

It took me several games of Civ IV to figure this out, but now all of my cities have science-boosting buildings and they only get the gold-boosting buildings when they have a lot of commerce, or have a Shrine, or I have nothing better to build, because I park my slider as close to 100% as possible anyway. Usually they don't get that far; I designate them as production cities and they spend most of the game with library/obs/univ and monasteries if they are close to another civ's borders, but mainly generate units.

I almost never manage to get Spiral Minaret, but if you get it, you might want to build some more gold-boosting buildings in all of your cities no matter how low the commerce, because all cities will produce a bit of gold. Priests too, but that usually happens only if you have Angkor Wat, as you'll probably not have that many priests if you don't have that wonder.

 

[svv]

Allow me to think out loud for a sec. I've been debating the following in my head for a while...

Since the Great Library only gives extra beakers (not a multiplier), I question the need to build this in my main "science" (read: capital) city....

Why wouldn't I want to build the GL in a GP/wonder city instead? As long as there is a library (and later a Uni/Observatory), it will still add the same number of beakers as in any other city without an Academy..

I think you're basicly on the right track here, but first let me give the other side. Reasons for building the GL in the commerce/science city are (1) you need build only 1 library/university/academy to serve both the commerce and the GL specialists, (2) if you get to build Oxford before Scientific Method kills off the GL, it'd be nice to have it also apply to the GL's specialists.

Having said that, I almost always build the GL in my best GP farm city, which is usually my capital where I've built other wonders. In the meantime, I have my eyes peeled for a city (either one of mine or one I intend to "liberate") which will be a good pure-commerce city. Around the time of Scientific Method, I'll think about moving my capital to this new city, to give it the commerce bonuses from the palace and bureaucracy, and building Oxford there. Thus the science focus will have shifted from the old capital to the new commerce city.

I also think "shrine city" may be a better descriptor of ""commerce city", since it's the only way a city can get a disproportionately higher raw amount of gold than any other city (sans Minaret).

You have this wrong. Commerce is not the same as gold. Commerce is generated by working tiles, the palace bonus, and trade routes, and it is USED to generate either science, gold, or culture, depending on how you have your sliders set.

Shrines are one way to get a city GOLD without commerce. Other ways include improvements (banks, markeplace, grocer, Wall Street) and merchant specialists. I like to try to harness the synergy of all this non-commerce-based gold production, so I try to build Wall Street in a city with shrine(s), and put down a lot of farms there so I can hire merchant specialists.

There's most often going to be an early battle between your wonder city and your science city as far as making GPs, so I have trouble declaring any city a "GP" farm early. That's if you settle your great scientists.

Not necessarily. A "science city" (that is, one that relies on commerce) need not involve any GP-producing activity at all. Further, you could settle your great scientists there, so that they'll be amplified by Oxford when you get it. Meanwhile, your capital/gp farm is also generating science (perhaps through some commerce, perhaps through specialists and the GL), and is also producing all the GP points.

 

[eluciv]

svv,

Thanks for you reply.

I think you may have mistook (or I didn't clarify) my "commerce city" point. I know there is a difference between commerce and coin. I had assumed that since this thread was titled "science city vs commerce city" that commerce implied coin. I was stating the flaw in that labeling, so we are indeed on the same level. My point that coin can only have a (significantly) higher raw value with shrine(s) and/or the Minaret is indeed accurate. I guess you could also always settle a bunch of GMs or GProphs for more raw coin, but those are GPs I rarely get more than one of in a game (if I have my say).

I think it was also inferred by axident that

I almost never manage to get Spiral Minaret, but if you get it, you might want to build some more gold-boosting buildings in all of your cities no matter how low the commerce, because all cities will produce a bit of gold.

This is not accurate, since the Minaret only increases coin in the city it is built. That city should have the full array of market, grocer, bank - the rest of your cities can only help by building the buildings of your state religon.

With the commerce bonus given to the capital, the Beaurocracy civic and the fact that the science slider is above 50% more often than not, having the capital be the science city is practically a given in my world. With that, it may have some secondary production capabilty, but more often than not, I'm max-ing the working of cottage tiles there. Perhaps what you are suggesting is that I should consider a city other than my capital as my primary science city? I could consider that if I never used beaurocracy, but utilizing the hammer side of that civic is something I guess I've never considered. It's always just been a nice side-effect of the 50% commerce increase. Hmmm...

 

[axident]

svv,

Thanks for you reply.

I think you may have mistook (or I didn't clarify) my "commerce city" point. I know there is a difference between commerce and coin. I had assumed that since this thread was titled "science city vs commerce city" that commerce implied coin. I was stating the flaw in that labeling, so we are indeed on the same level. My point that coin can only have a (significantly) higher raw value with shrine(s) and/or the Minaret is indeed accurate. I guess you could also always settle a bunch of GMs or GProphs for more raw coin, but those are GPs I rarely get more than one of in a game (if I have my say).

I think it was also inferred by axident that This is not accurate, since the Minaret only increases coin in the city it is built. That city should have the full array of market, grocer, bank - the rest of your cities can only help by building the buildings of your state religon.

With the commerce bonus given to the capital, the Beaurocracy civic and the fact that the science slider is above 50% more often than not, having the capital be the science city is practically a given in my world. With that, it may have some secondary production capabilty, but more often than not, I'm max-ing the working of cottage tiles there. Perhaps what you are suggesting is that I should consider a city other than my capital as my primary science city? I could consider that if I never used beaurocracy, but utilizing the hammer side of that civic is something I guess I've never considered. It's always just been a nice side-effect of the 50% commerce increase. Hmmm...

I am ashamed to admit that I have lost like EVERY DAMNED RACE for the Spiral Minaret in my last several games, even with stone+industrious. I just don't bother getting Divine Right and so I have to trade for it and then try to beat the original Divine Righter to it. But my hazy memory says that each state religion building gives +2 gold, right? And it's spread out among the cities, University of Sankore style? I've had much greater luck building the University so I thought that Spiral worked the same way. Else the Spiral city ends up looking like a shrine city, which doesn't jibe with my memory, but I may be wrong... if that's the case though, then yeah treat it like a shrine city and the rest of your empire doesn't need gold-booster buildings if your slider is going to loiter at 100% most of the time.