Science Discussion 2: DG5- Got Monarchy?

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

The Intro

This thread is not about switching to a monarchy. That would be a domestic thread. This one is about researching it.

The Situation

We are currently researching Bronze Working and will have it done in 13 turns. After this, we will research Iron Working, to see where there is Iron in our mountainous and hilly landscape. We already have Cer Bur and the Wheel. Monarchy would require researching (or acquiring) Mysticism and Polytheism, as well as Warrior Code, which we could trade for.

The Proposal
Begin work on Mysticism after Iron Working. Hope we run into someone with Warrior Code. After Myst, Poly, followed by Monarchy. If we do not have warrior code by the end of Poly, we could make a quick detour to it. This would allow us to gain the government tech quickly and build the Hanging Gardens.

Discuss!!

The Outro
La la la la la la hey!

 

[mhcarver]

It sounds like a good idea to me , I personaly don't see anything wrong with it

 

[Fier Canadien]

As Cultural deputy, I must urge against this plan. Yes, it would get us 2 wonders in the way, but the Oracle is worthless (and almost always built because of cascade), and the Hanging Gardens are of a questionnable use when you have luxuries.

The Literature then Republic way makes much more sense, culturally. First, this tech path is the least followed by the AI. Second, Literature does not only give access to the Great Library, it also permits the building of Libraries, helping both our science and our culture. Third, Monarchy is a warlike government. Going for Monarchy is almost an open plan to win by millitary means.

Go for Literature.

 

[Espírito]

I personally would prefer to go for Philosophy, trade Alphabet/Writing/Philopsophy with other civs (if we meet) so we can get Construction/Monarchy for free.

Monarchy is best if we are Pangaea, Republic if Archi imho, so we must explore more first.

Edit: Oh, I thought Philo still worked in Vanilla, been so long since I played it, ignore this post then, a mod can delete if they see.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

espirito- this is vanilla. there is no philo gambit.
fier- i respect your opinion. yes, the lit/rep path is rarely (ive never seen it used) used by the AI. and yes, that is my path of choice. but this is what the people want.

our two options
the monarchy path - myst, poly, warrior code, monarchy
the republic path with the lit interlude- alpha, writing, philo, code of laws, rep, lit (somewhere in there)

please discuss the merits of both paths.

@fier- if this was a game that i played, i'd have begun work on the republic path at once instead of bronze. but then again, im a XCC player.

 

[Provolution]

I challenge the poet faction to give numbers crunched justifying not going for Monarchy.
The waste is incredible with despotism, and choosing republic removes a lot of our democratic and strategic freedom to develop our military.

When there is a numeric, quantitative, strategically analyzed reasoning behind, I will either buy it or break it, rendering the argument null, void and non-valid.
So if the numbers are correct, based on the existing, not hypothetical maps outside what we mapped, please allow me to apologize.

Yet, I cannot take unsubtantiated claims seriously.

 

[GenMarshall]

As the Trade Deputy, I beleve that we should get out of despotism as quckly as possible. I agree to the science queues, but would it be possible to go for the Republic if we are dead set on going on a peacefull path?

 

[Fier Canadien]

I challenge the poet faction to give numbers crunched justifying not going for Monarchy.
The waste is incredible with despotism, and choosing republic removes a lot of our democratic and strategic freedom to develop our military.

When there is a numeric, quantitative, strategically analyzed reasoning behind, I will either buy it or break it, rendering the argument null, void and non-valid.
So if the numbers are correct, based on the existing, not hypothetical maps outside what we mapped, please allow me to apologize.

Yet, I cannot take unsubtantiated claims seriously.

Simple: both Monarchy and Republic offer great advances over Despotism, and this is undeniable. However, Republic offers a commercial bonus (less corruption) while Monarchy does not. In compensation, Monarchy offers no war weariness and troop support.

All in all, Republic is good for peace, and Monarchy is better at war.

Furhtermore, the AI almost always go for the Monarchy race. This means that we should be able to trade our Literature/Republic techs to the AI if they don't have it because of goody huts.

 

[Provolution]

Reminder

Barbarian level is savage
There is 11 Civilizations out there, we do not know which
we have no iron so far
Japan is a religious/militaristic civilization
Golden age requires a religious/militaristic wonder
Fanatikku , soon 12 pop, badly needs happiness, there is hardly any luxuries around.
Monarchy gives Hanging Gardens, Oracle en route.

 

[Cyc]

I agree with the Tech path completely. Bronze, Iron, Myst, Poly/WC (we will surely be able to pick up WC for cheap), followed by Monarchy.

The Oracle is only worthless to people who don't know it's value. It can garuantee happiness until we reach the next age. The Hanging Gardens trumps happiness for our civilization and the two early Wonders put a lock on mega Culture points.

Monarchy's low/non-existant war weariness makes it a must in the Demogame. We will be at war. Republic can only get us into trouble, and I'm tellin' ya, if you become a Republic before you are very secure in this game, you will need The Oracle and The Hanging Gardens.

 

[Provolution]

Republics city growth and food bonuses, beyond what we already has from numerous foodplains and wheat and grasslands will require nothing short but entertainments and temples, not to mention oracle and hanging gardens. Do not eat more than we can choose. With Monarchy, we decide on the execution of wars, with Republic, they do.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

this looks like it might be a matter of polling. i will let the discussion run a 24 hour course before putting up the poll asking whether we should go for the monarchy path or the republic path.

i would also like domestic to have a say in this.

 

[Provolution]

I would insist on open polling here, in order to avoid election fraud.
I am on the other hand for secret polls on person votes, overseen by moderators to find perpetrators and double log ins. Yet, in science debates with clear sides, we need to be honest and honorable to each other.

 

[Cyc]

open polling = public polling.

 

[Bobby Lee]

I think i have to agree with Provolution , Provo has convinced me...

 

[Immortal]

Im against republic by virtue of fact that I can never get decent GPT early with it in my single player games

 

[Comnenus]

Question: If so many people are for the Pyramids as an early Wonder, why are we ignoring Masonry?

 

[Fier Canadien]

Good question.

Because of the nature of our political system, those things seem to happen quite often...

 

[Provolution]

I have noticed that there is no consistency of thought in the wonders some people want, and in the research plans. Science and culture is so intertwined that it is hard to differentiate. Temples and libraries expands border, libraries impact research, research impacts wonders and worder selection. I am also amazed by the lack of cohesion in these strategies, Great Library there, Oracle there, right and left, maybe research Masonry as well. It seems that the alternative is sprawled and fragmented, and do not offer a real holistic strategy, as the iron/monarchy alternative.

 

[Comnenus]

I have noticed that there is no consistency of thought in the wonders some people want, and in the research plans. ... It seems that the alternative is sprawled and fragmented, and do not offer a real holistic strategy, as the iron/monarchy alternative.

I think this is why the Ministers need to confer, post a copy of their conference, and present us with a unified plan to approve.