Science, NC and tall questions

[Skull_]

I have a dumb question:

Why people always say to build NC as faster as possible? Some even say to use a GE to finish it in one turn? I mean, delay it for 10-20 isnt ok to have a strong science?

Since cost for new reserches increase with new citys, 3 citys is ok to have if you over populate then?

Do puppet citys also increase the reserch cost?

What is better to do with a GS? Science boost or tile improvement?

Thanks for the help buddys.

 

[Tachii]

Building science as earliest as possible builds upon itself. It means you can get Universities earlier, which means Public schools earlier, which means Research labs earlier, which means Hubble earlier. National college at its time trumps anything else in terms of science output. So naturally, you want it as fast as possible for optimal effect to get the snowball rolling.

3 is a bit low. 4-6 is usually optimal. I still say 4 since Tradition's growth really helps here.

Like the tooltip says, new cities and puppet cities increase cost.

Settle GS before the Renaissance I say. Else you should just bulb it, though I'm not really an expert here.

 

[Matthew.]

Where are people getting the GE to use it on NC

In short: This game is all about the snowball effect. Quicker NC means quicker universities means quicker RA's means quicker schools, so on and so on.

The other part of NC is that 50% modifier scales with city growth making every citizen in the city with NC (typically capital) worth more than a citizen in another city. Long way of saying that it is generally more beneficial to add population to a NC city than it is to settle an additional city.

As for your other questions:

You can have as many cities as you want as long as you develop them. The science penalty is to punish ICS and runaways (spamming tons of small, under-developed cities). As long as you make an effort to develop a city, it will always result in more science, culture, and gold.

Yes, puppets also increase the tech cost.

Generally can plant the first one or two great scientists. Rest won't pay themselves back before end of the game, so save to bulb towards the end. Either 8 turns after public schools or 8 turns after research labs. Epic/marathon pacing or one-city-challenges can get away with planting more than one or two GS's since there is more time for them to pay themselves off or in the case of OCC, you need them to compensate for lack of raw population.

 

[Skull_]

I belive they get it from liberty tree.

 

[Matthew.]

Seems like a waste at that point. Capital should be strong enough to bang out an NC in ~10 turns anyway. May as well take the GS, plant it, and hard-build the NC.

In G&K I typically went 3 cities to NC, but in BNW I've been going 2. The lack of bulk gold trades, the barbarian horsemen (ugh!), and needing to devote hammers to building caravans makes 3 cities a bit too much.

I usually finish NC around turn 75

 

[Maxym]

Settle GS before the Renaissance I say. Else you should just bulb it, though I'm not really an expert here.

Generally can plant the first one or two great scientists. Rest won't pay themselves back before end of the game, so save to bulb towards the end. Either 8 turns after public schools or 8 turns after research labs. Epic/marathon pacing or one-city-challenges can get away with planting more than one or two GS's since there is more time for them to pay themselves off or in the case of OCC, you need them to compensate for lack of raw population.

That was not correct even in GK, where GS bulbs increased with time and you could hoard them. Keep settling them until you get ur labs running. Especially with all the buffs available to great tile improvements.

People use GE on NC only if going really wide with liberty and the cost of hard building would be prohibitive. Most openings: one, two or three city, just build it. Then settle more cities.

 

[Matthew.]

Sure it is correct. A faster game is going to end ~250 turns. You are not realistically going to get a GS before around half of that. You won't get a return on your beakers invested shortly after that, which makes planting them result in less science.

Unless you were nit-picking on the part about 8 turns after public schools. Yes, you will get more by waiting for labs, but if you have a large enough science base and number of RA's going, you can start bulbing after schools and the additional GS's from faith/Hubble will be enough to carry.

Although with the science penalties in BNW, I'd guess it is now worth it to save until labs no matter what.

 

[FrostK]

Capital should be strong enough to bang out an NC in ~10 turns anyway.

Not always true. In recent BNW game I built NC in 23 turns since I had jungle start. (Science victory on turn 254, lack of friends, always)

It is always a hard decision - whether to build NC or found new cities. I can not say what is generally better. But, of course, u need build NC asap after u settled your cities.
If we are talking about Deity - I do not think you can do something using Liberty, so you will never have GE for NC.

I am not very advanced in going science thow, I trust my friend who told me:
before labs put GS
after labs use GS

 

[Scott Jegg]

If I can get 400gp together (even via a loan from the AI if I am short), I'd prefer to build a settler, settle the new city, and buy the library so that I can get building NC straight away. Would normally do that during researching philosophy so I can start building asap.

If you are waiting to settle a second city, especially if NC takes a while to build on heavy jungle/grass start for example, the best city plots can be grabbed from under your nose by a maniac like Caesar, Catheriine, or Hiawatha.

And yes, build asap. Beeline philosophy and get the lux/resource tech once finished. Concentrate on getting farms down and growing population to take advantage of the increased beakers. If you want those medieval/renaissance wonders on harder levels, you need to get there first, and you won't do that if you are fannying about with low beakers per turn.

edit: of course, if you are next to atilla, shaka, etc. forget beelining philosphy and get masonry and construction to defend yourself. NC is useless if you lost your capital

 

[Matthew.]

Not always true. In recent BNW game I built NC in 23 turns since I had jungle start. (Science victory on turn 254, lack of friends, always)

True. I was referring to by the time Liberty tree is completed it is going to be close to turn 100+ unless you've had culture help from extra sources (pantheon/CS's). If you are pushing population growth in the capital, it should be 14+ by that time and have access to plenty of hammers where it shouldn't take 25 turns to complete. Of course city location and number of cities can still result in a longer NC.

Anyway, NC doesn't make or break the game either way. I've had plenty of great games without even building NC at all or extremely late. If I had to use an analogy I'd say it is like opening with a center pawn in chess. You can have good games if you don't, but generally it is a good idea to do so. NC is the same: Not required to get ASAP, but generally a good idea to do so.

 

[FrostK]

it should be 14+ by that time and have access to plenty of hammers where it shouldn't take 25 turns to complete.

junle start means jungle start. 1 horse, jungle, several camps, grassland
there is no hammers here
(Removing jungles on hills for me makes no sence since in early game workers have a lot of more important work, after univesities jungles are better)

 

[Maxym]

Sure it is correct. A faster game is going to end ~250 turns. You are not realistically going to get a GS before around half of that. You won't get a return on your beakers invested shortly after that, which makes planting them result in less science.

Unless you were nit-picking on the part about 8 turns after public schools. Yes, you will get more by waiting for labs, but if you have a large enough science base and number of RA's going, you can start bulbing after schools and the additional GS's from faith/Hubble will be enough to carry.

Although with the science penalties in BNW, I'd guess it is now worth it to save until labs no matter what.

You got it all backwards,

If you have bunch of RAs going it's even more important to plant GS as you get more bang from each RA as well as subsequent bulbs. If you only making two GS before labs you are doing it wrong. I would bulb to get labs if I had money for few of them. Or could get them out fast, other then that keep planting until labs. You can get four to six before then and they will pay for themselves.

It makes no sense to hoard GS at all now, it might make sense to delay some so you get lots of pops after labs are up.

Generally can plant the first one or two great scientists. Rest won't pay themselves back before end of the game, so save to bulb towards the end.

Let me repeat that one more time:

It's flat out wrong, you get nothing by saving GS for later bulbs but will pay mintenenance on them. BNW mechanic sets bulb power at the time GS is spawned so the only thing you can do is manipulate spawn time and bpt leading up to it. Once they spawn what you got is what you have and you need to decide to either plant or burn as there is no reason to delay save for some spying or military considerations.

 

[tomtom5858]

You won't get a return on your beakers invested shortly after that, which makes planting them result in less science.

Something I don't think you understand: the raw beaker count is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY IRRELEVANT TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU SHOULD BE BULBING OR PLANTING. The question is: will this GS take more turns off of my research if I plant it or if I bulb it later in the game? Will your GS will take more than 8 total turns off of your research if you plant it? If so, plant it. If not, bulb it. A bulb can provide a maximum of 8 turns worth of research. A plant can result in significantly more (such in the case of the Babylonian GS, resulting in upwards of 20 turns being taken off of your research before the Renaissance). That is the question you should be asking. Otherwise, you're simply wrong. In general, though, if you're going to bulb all at once (in the "bulldoze the tech tree" format, as opposed to the "I have 8 turns to Plastics, should bulb now" method), save them for after RLs, which will give you the most bang for your buck.

 

[Matthew.]

Sorry, but that math doesn't work out, at least in G&K. You won't finish Freedom in faster science games and people usually went for order's factories anyway. The added science from an additional academy isn't enough. A single GS after labs can easily net you over 9k science. Feel free to show me with numbers how you are going to beat that with an academy when the game finishes under 270 turns.

The only exception is, like I said, in games like OCC's where you don't have the raw bulk population and need to compensate.

I will concede things may and likely have changed in BNW, so in the context of this thread, the number of planted GS's is still up for debate. But hey, you specifically mentioned G&K too, in which case planted GS's were rarely worth it.

 

[Matthew.]

A plant can result in significantly more (such in the case of the Babylonian GS, resulting in upwards of 20 turns being taken off of your research before the Renaissance).

The difference is Babylon gets a GS extremely early

Let's go with 2 planted GS's, like I said. Getting uni's by turn 115 and an additional 34 turns after that (17 turns for each GS). That puts the game at 149 turns in and already closing in on public schools. The science gained from additional academies and turn duration is pointless to even discuss. Even if you magically sprouted 4 GS's on turn 150 and planted all 4, you are losing science in the long-term by not saving them and bulbing.

The only argument is getting a larger science base for RA's and future GS bulbs. If you are getting 1k+ science anyway from population alone, an academy doesn't add enough to justify planting. The exception, like I said, is in smaller empires like OCC's, where if you only have ~350 science, it can be useful to keep planting so the next couple rounds of RA's and late-game bulbs give a bigger boost.

Anyway, this is all technically off-topic, as we are in the BNW thread. The question is how has the game changed and how does that affect when to stop planting GS's? I'd suspect the number has been pushed back at least a little bit, since gaining a large science base by population will likely result in a larger tech cost from number of cities. I don't have enough games, nor have dug into the game long enough yet to give a definite answer, but I'd suspect the overall big picture hasn't changed much. The last half of GS's are probably still best saved for late-game bulbing.

 

[Matthew.]

BNW mechanic sets bulb power at the time GS is spawned so the only thing you can do is manipulate spawn time and bpt leading up to it.

You are thinking of Great Musicians and their world tour ability?

I have a game open right now and every one of my GS's sitting around have the same estimated beaker boost when hovering over the ability, which changes as my base science goes up. When actually bulbed, it gives the exact number estimated.

In short, not sure where you were told something has changed but the bulb mechanics are still working as they did in G&K.

I would prefer if they worked like Great Musicians, but it doesn't seem so.

 

[Maxym]

You are thinking of Great Musicians and their world tour ability?

I have a game open right now and every one of my GS's sitting around have the same estimated beaker boost when hovering over the ability, which changes as my base science goes up. When actually bulbed, it gives the exact number estimated.

In short, not sure where you were told something has changed but the bulb mechanics are still working as they did in G&K.

I would prefer if they worked like Great Musicians, but it doesn't seem so.

Yeah I Think you Are Right. I have not checked just went off something I read in strategy forum. Thought they changed it for all GPs. Does culture from GW go up as well when your cpt goes up?

My apologies

If that is still correct then yeah two settled GS is standard, unless Babylon, Maya or Korea or OCC. Longer game speeds require more settling as well.

 

[Matthew.]

I don't know for sure, but I think the culture probably stays the same as when they are generated. I will try and look out for it the next game I'm in (I often have GWAM's sitting around a few turns anyway if I don't have a slot open for them yet)

As for GS's, you can probably get away with settling more than one or two anyway in BNW. The game I just finished I wasn't too happy with my science to tech cost ratio and likely would have been better off planting more. Although as the meta-game settles, I'm sure we will just need to find other ways to get more bulk science while still saving GS's. Seems like there is more incentive to expand in mid to late game now, which sounds counter-intuitive because of the 5% tech cost per city penalty.

 

[Tachii]

Woah... it still grows as base science grows? I actually didn't know this, lol. It seems kind of stupid they didn't implant the samething they did with musicians... (also the fact it makes no sense a scientist spawned in the medieval era can help future techs)

 

[Matthew.]

Yep. I'm 99% sure it still scales like before. I'd prefer if it were changed. One of my biggest complaints about this game is you are better off using all the one-time-use abilities and completely ignore planting any great people. I'd love to have a bunch of factories in an industrial-heavy city, but you get way more hammers by rushing a wonder. If you are quick enough you can get by with an academy or two, but generally the same thing. I don't know of anyone who regularly uses planted merchants.