Science slider when 1 turn from tech: change it or not?

[eighty]

Does anyone know if changing the science rate when you are 1 turn from getting a tech is useful or not? What I mean is, say I am at 80% and I go to 60% and still get it in 1 turn, if I had left the slider at 80%, does the extra investment in the tech go to waste or is it applied to the next advance?
Also, it appears that there is no penalty for switching research techs in the middle, unlike some earlier civs. Is this true or not?

 

[Exsanguination]

the extra goes to waste (to my knowledge). It is a very good idea to move the slider back, I've made up to +500 gold by doing that.

 

[Zouave]

I always change it to avoid the waste. True.

 

[fentito]

Well same here. I believe you are correct

 

[RX2000]

Originally posted by Exsanguination
the extra goes to waste (to my knowledge). It is a very good idea to move the slider back, I've made up to +500 gold by doing that.

This is a common misconception that you can easily disprove for yourself. To set the record straight, science beakers DO carry over to the next tech! They are NOT wasted! Here is how you can see for yourself.

Say you have 4 or 5 turns left to discover a tech. Save your game. Now crank the science up to like 100%, enough to get it the next turn. Now note how many turns it takes you to get your next tech. Write that down, then reload your saved game. Leave the science rate how it was, and play the 4-5 turns til you discover that tech. You will notice that it now takes you longer to research the next tech. Therefore, science beakers DO carry over. I did this experiment on regent level, I would assume difficulty level has no bearing on it, although it may.

 

[eighty]

Thank you Pootie. I was going to try something like that, but I haven't got around to it. I will let u guys know how my own experiment turns out.

 

[Dell19]

Yep he seems to be right. I tried this technique awhile ago and the last research did give me more cash and finish in the saem tunr but the next tech took an extra turn to complete.

 

[Tassadar]

I always though extra beaker went to waste because when you change tech reasearch in the middle of it completion, you restart at 0.

It is another non-written rule by Firaxis. But Why should they bother to write rule, when AI doesnt play with the same as human.

 

[Thorrible]

Originally posted by RX2000

Say you have 4 or 5 turns left to discover a tech. Save your game. Now crank the science up to like 100%, enough to get it the next turn. Now note how many turns it takes you to get your next tech. Write that down, then reload your saved game. Leave the science rate how it was, and play the 4-5 turns til you discover that tech. You will notice that it now takes you longer to research the next tech. Therefore, science beakers DO carry over. I did this experiment on regent level, I would assume difficulty level has no bearing on it, although it may.

Actually, this is easily explained in that, upon the prompt to choose your next research project, the computer is taking into account what you have your science counter at. If you drop from 80% to 50% to get that extra gold, once you finish your research, the computer will calculate how long it will take you to discover your next tech by looking at your current levels. It may tell you that you need 20 turns for Monotheism, for example, but when you raise your science bar back to 80%, that will drop down to 12 (or whatever). Therefore, drop your bar, the techs are wasted, but the money won't be. The only REAL trick to knocking back your research level for a turn is to remember that you did it and fix it after you discover your tech. Not easy when its 2 AM.

 

[Sir Yelof]

Sounds like we still don't have a definitive answer. Do the beakers carry over to the next tech?

I'm almost positive that you lose all the beakers you put into researching a tech if you switch techs in midstream.

I also know that there is definitely a time when it's worth lowering your tax rate when you have 1 turn left -- when the next tech you're going to research requires so many beakers that you're just going to stay at 10% (or 0% with scientists) to grab it in the maximum of 40 turns. This comes into play in the early going when you finish an easy tech like Pottery while planning to go next for MapMaking or something similar, before you've built up any sort of decent cash flow.

Anxious to hear whether the slider games are helping or hurting.
--Yelof

 

[Traquenard-fx]

I am a little confuse here

What happening if I take the extra gold and after that I get my next tech in 4 turns? Waste of gold or report on the re-next tech? Culmulative or not?

HELP ME

 

[Mr Spoons]

I though science was expressed in 'beaker count', i.e. number of science units needed to get a particular tech and not 'turns' which simply indicate how long it will take you to get the tech based on your current science accumulation rate.

For example, suppose a tech needs 1,000 beakers and you have accumulated 850 so far. If your accumulation rate is 250 per turn, then are the extra 100 not carried over to your next advance?

Is this not the case for the Theory of Evolution GW - you gain two techs and your beaker count is then carried over to your next advance? Obviously, the more advanced the tech, the higher the beaker count will be. This could be why it doesn't appear you are losing out by dropping the tech slider.

Using the previous example, whether or not you carry forward the 100 beakers, if the beaker count for an advance is 1,000 and you are accumulating 250 beakers per turn, then it will still take you four turns to finish it. Also, if the next tech had a beaker count of 2,000 or 5,000 the carry over would be marginalized and less apparent. Conversely, if you are generating 250 beakers per turn on your current science rate and you only need 50 beakers to complete the tech then dropping the slider (and thus generating fewer beakers) will make it look as if you aren't losing out. However, you are because the excess is not carried forward.

The manual states that if you change tech in mid-research then you lose any beakers accumulated for the abandoned tech. This would include the carry over from previous 'chained' techs.

Then again, civ3 seems to have a maximum turn time of 40 for a scientific advance (unless you have no science at all). This could just relate to a minimum though - as a default the software could use (beakers required/40) per turn as an accrual rate if this is greater than your actual science rate.

Thoughts? It's late and my head hurts.

Pip pip.

 

[Traquenard-fx]

where is Mangaha (not sure of is name) the frixian. Long time we don't see him here. Maybe he can confirm which of these theories is true.

Those firaxians never here when we need them

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Beakers are carried over, at least mostly. That is because the tech advance is checked as each city contributes. So if your 4th city out of 12 buys you the advance, the other 8 cities give you a head start on the next tech.

Now whether the excess contribution from an individual city is wasted, I have no idea. Unless you have a super science city, it is unlikely to matter. Also, remember that the minimum research time is 4 turns per tech.

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Well in Civ2 you could see the carried forward to the new tech, but Im not sure with civ3 the science display sucks in this regard.

Ive just been reducing it when it comes to one turn left to be safe

 

[Thorrible]

I guess the real way to figure this out would be to save your game when you have one turn to go on your regular setting, knock your research back, and then see how many turns it will take you to research another technology AFTER getting the advance AND resetting your science bar. Then, you should reload the game, NOT back off on your research, and see if those turn rates are comparable or not. If they're the same, then my bet would be that the beakers are not carried over. It may take a turn less to research the new tech if you don't knock back your bar. Someone could do this, take a few screen shots, and post them up there for those of us who access this forum while at work as a substitute for playing the game.

 

[T-hawk]

I've checked, and excess tech on a turn when you discover IS NOT carried over to the new tech. So always when you are 1 turn from a tech, go drop the science slider as far as you can and still get the tech in 1 turn.

Also, science is not checked city-by-city. Science and cash are accumulated civ-wide BEFORE any city does its food and shields production for the turn. You do not discover advances in the middle of turn upkeep between city productions.

This is so you get exactly the listed amounts for science and cash. If city growth and production was handled first, you wouldn't get the exact amounts -- or if a city went into disorder, you would have the possibility of not getting an advance in 1 turn even though the slider said so.

As for switching tech goal in midstream, if you do it voluntarily, half of your beaker count applies to the new tech (this takes effect when you leave the F6 screen.) Note that trading for a tech automatically swaps you to a different tech goal; if you switch again your accumulated research is halved again. Also, ToE forces you to switch your current tech TWICE, losing half each time. So you don't quite lose all your progress, but it's pretty close.

The 40 and 4 turn limits are a maximum and minimum on time, not on beakers. If you have 0% science and 1 scientist, you do not get N/40 beakers credited; you get 1 beaker. If you produce 100000 beakers, you get 100000 beakers, but will not be credited with the tech for 3 more turns. The 40 and 4 turn limits reset whenever you change your tech goal.

 

[God]

I checked on a monarch game as the Russians. I had 1 turn left for Nuclear Power. Put the slider down as low as possible. Next turn I had 14 turns left for the Laser (next tech). I reloaded from the previous turn, but this time left the slider where it was. This time the Laser was due in 10 turns! Big difference! Leave it as it is.

 

[JollyRoger]

I always assumed (I could be wrong) that the excess beakers did not carry over which I thought was kind of unrealistic. It means that you are discovering techs at that point in time when you have the least amount of resources contributing to science.

I really don't like the excess beakers carrying over either as I think you should have to start each tech on the next turn from the beginning. My proposal would be a slider freeze as you approach the discovery of a tech. One turn out you can only adjust the slider 10%, two turns out, you can only adjust the slider 20%, etc. Any excess beakers would not carry over.

I would also like two options in the editor with the ability to make research random (the tech you or the AI researches is randomly determined) and blind (random research with the additional handicap of not knowing what you are researching until the research is complete).

 

[T-hawk]

Originally posted by God
I checked on a monarch game as the Russians. I had 1 turn left for Nuclear Power. Put the slider down as low as possible. Next turn I had 14 turns left for the Laser (next tech). I reloaded from the previous turn, but this time left the slider where it was. This time the Laser was due in 10 turns! Big difference! Leave it as it is.

How the heck can a carryover from ONE turn reduce the time for the next tech by FOUR turns? Mathematically, it can't!

I think you're just leaving the slider down. Put the slider back up and it will be exactly the same.

To give specific numbers, suppose you had Nuclear Power in 1 turn at 60% science, and that you can lower that to 30% and still get it in 1 turn. Next turn, you'll see Laser at 14 turns at 30% science. But raise the slider back to 60%, and you'll see Laser in 10.

I've tested this. The beakers don't carry over.

Can you provide a save of a counterexample? I'll provide one of my point tonight.