Science victory in 428 turns, help!

[skip11]

So I just finish another game on prince difficulty again as Babylonian. Won by science in 428 turns. Before that I won with Poland in 460ish turns. I followed this guide http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506522 but I probably did something wrong. If anybody can offer me some tips so I can improve and go up in difficulty that would be great!

I've attached the replay.

 

[skip11]

Sorry for no screenshot, not sure how to take screenshots.

 

[slowcar]

Sorry for no screenshot, not sure how to take screenshots.

with steam it is usually f12

 

[joshua43214]

with steam it is usually f12

f12 is also unfortunately the short cut for quick load in Civ

You will need to either remap the quick load button or use a good image browser like Irfanview (hands down best image browser ever made) to take a screeny

 

[joshua43214]

So I just finish another game on prince difficulty again as Babylonian. Won by science in 428 turns. Before that I won with Poland in 460ish turns. I followed this guide http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506522 but I probably did something wrong. If anybody can offer me some tips so I can improve and go up in difficulty that would be great!

I've attached the replay.

The guide you followed is decent but not great. Using a BO of scout > settler means you are not growing the cap during its most important growth period, your settler will take a very long time to build (while not growing), and you probably have not scouted well enough to make a good choice as to where to settle. This type of aggressive settler building is better done with liberty where you get the production bonus. If you wait a bit, you can build a settler with a 4-6 pop city, have a decent chance of getting a DoF so you can buy a settler, and simply saving up and buying one.

The guide says to build the NC "if in doubt." The NC is first priority in a science game. It is so important that one of the most common early strats is to stick to 1-2 cities until it is up. Going past 4 cities on immortal with tradition early in the game only happens with very good maps. I have pushed as many a 7 out, but this is bad planning on my part - it means I have gone tradition on a liberty map. More commonly I get 3-4 cities early, and occasionally drop a 4th or 5th mid late game to grab a resource rich area.

The guide also does not emphasize the importance of running specialists, which in turn means getting a pop high enough to support them. You also need a pop high enough to work academies. You get this pop early and building settlers too early can prevent fast enough growth.

 

[dragonxxx]

From my 2 weeks exp with the game, NC seems to be top priority no matter what VC you choose later on, as you always need science ...

Also, I don't like the settler after the scouts. Better make a worker or shrine instead and make settler when u hit 5-6 citizens, and that if you have some good hammer tiles, so you do not stop growth. If you are low on hammers, its better to take the liberty path after the tradition opener.

The first few games I played, after I got basic knowledge how things work, I opened tradition, then liberty, get free settler, make one more, buy third. finish liberty tree, move on. Maybe you can try it.

 

[joshua43214]

The first few games I played, after I got basic knowledge how things work, I opened tradition, then liberty, get free settler, make one more, buy third. finish liberty tree, move on. Maybe you can try it.

this was a very common start in vanilla because liberty was seriously OP, you took liberty even in 2-3 city tradition starts. G&K nerfed (thank god) liberty. Now it is better in general to stick to one policy tree and finish it off before starting another.

 

[dragonxxx]

this was a very common start in vanilla because liberty was seriously OP, you took liberty even in 2-3 city tradition starts. G&K nerfed (thank god) liberty. Now it is better in general to stick to one policy tree and finish it off before starting another.

Well, its true, that this way you need some more culture as instead of 6 you need 7 points, but still tradition opener gives 3 cpt alone, so it compensates I guess.

Last few games I am doing full tradition starts, but both seem to be good tbh.

If you start full liberty, how do you compensate the lack of these 3 culture per turn from the tradition opener? Sometimes you do not hit culture ruins with the scouts ...

 

[Browd]

Monuments. With Tradition, you get free monuments from Legalism, but in Liberty you need to build them. At 3 cities, both approaches will provide +9 culture: Tradition (post-Legalism) will be +2 per monument and +3 from Tradition opener, while Liberty will be +1 per city from opener and +2 per monument. Once you hit 4 cities, Liberty generates more culture than Tradition.

Of course, the hammer and gold costs and happiness and growth outcomes of the two strategies can differ pretty radically, but on a pure culture basis that's the arithmetic.

 

[dragonxxx]

I was more talking about the culture before you start settling, as you need culture to unlock the free settler first, so you need monument ASAP. So you have to waste around 10 turns building monument (instead of worker or shrine).

I like to open tradition first, as this way you do not waste early hammers for monument but concentrate more on improving the city. You can build that monument later on anyway.

 

[Browd]

Not sure I follow you. If you're going Tradition, why/how would you build a Monument later? Are you delaying taking Legalism to get free amphitheater later (i.e., taking Aristocracy and Oligarchy first)? -- not the most common approach to Tradition.

Unless you pop a culture ruin, you aren't getting the Tradition opener until turn 25 and Legalism until turn 33 (having generated about 57 culture, all from "passive" sources -- no monuments).

Depending on production, with a scout/monument => Liberty opener (and again assuming no culture ruins), your scout (25 hammers) should be done by turn 5 (if you have a 5 hammer start) and your monument (40 hammers) should be done no more than 8 turns later, but with population growth that's more likely to be 7 turns. So a turn 12 monument means you're able to open Liberty (and match the culture output of the Tradition opener) on about turn 18. By turn 33 you've generated another 60 culture (for total 85 culture), opened Republic (for the extra hammer and 5% production boost) and made it half way (20 culture out of required 40) to opening Collective Rule for your first settler. And with Pottery finishing at turn 9 (usually), you're only delaying your shrine by 3 turns. Yes, 3 turns can make a difference, so you can pause the monument, pop out a shrine (also 40 hammers) and delay monument for 6 or 7 turns.

My point is not that opening Liberty is the way to go (I open Tradition far more often than Liberty and usually take the free monument from Legalism). My point is that the upfront cost of hard-building a monument, and its impact on your city's build order, is not a reason to dismiss Liberty.

 

[skip11]

What do I do with great scientists? Make academies until public school?

 

[dragonxxx]

No no, you got me all wrong.
I was talking about following order:

1. Open tradition for the 3 cpt
2. Open Liberty
3. Republic - Collective Rule - Citizenship
4. rest of Liberty
5. Whatever you want, be it fill rest of tradition, some patronage, commerce or exploration

This way, you can skip the monument at the beginning (like you do when u go full tradition from start on) and still get decent cpt.

The reason (in my eyes at least):

Social policy cost (for one city, u have not more at that point):

25 45 90 160

If we assume we are not very lucky with the scouts and do not hit culture ruin, u hit 25 at turn 25. Then open Tradition, cpt becomes 4. At that point you should have 2 scouts and a shrine and maybe even working on the worker

around t36 you have the worker working, monument is done, pantheon founded and you open Liberty.
CPT is now 7.

t48 - Republic, with Granary and probably some archers ready
~t70 - you get Collective rule and by turn 80 you have 4 cities and the capitol is grown and working only upgraded tiles, you have hopefully sold some early upgraded lux etc.

If you go directly into Liberty, you basicly need 160 less culture.

So after the 10 turns for the scouts, lets say 8 more for the monument.
At turn 18 you got 3cpt.

T21 - Open Liberty (4cpt).
T33 - Republic
T56 - Collective rule.

OK! Thats indeed ~14 turns faster BUT:

1) You have to do the Monument first , before shrine => you get your pantheon at least 10 turns later (that might be crucial for the quality of the belief).
2) You delay the worker additional 10 turns -> thats 10 turns with less food, production, lux and income from selling it.

Also, you stop growth of the capitol because of the settler production earlier. And on top of that its quite possible, hat you do not have enough gold to buy the 3rd settler at that point .

Well, don't know, the more I think of this, this all seems close Still expansion after the capitol is grown a bit more sounds better for me. Still its something to think about.

* the whole thing is under the assumption, that we get rather unlucky with the ruins, we hit maps, barb camp locations, upgrade to speermen and hopefully at least some tech, but no culture or faith from them.

If there is any flaw in my logic - then let me know, like I said - I do not have much xp with the game, but that strategy worked pretty well for me at Prince and King. If there are not much hammers in the cap, liberty seems to make things faster than tradition.

 

[Browd]

The flaw in this approach is opening Tradition in the first place. Lots of analysis shows that it slows down your progress through Liberty, since the escalator for policy costs is exponential.

For one city, the culture costs of your first 4 policies are (with one city): 25, 30, 60, and 105. (By the way, your numbers are uniformly 1.5x higher. Are you playing Epic?)

If your first 4 policies are Tradition opener, Liberty opener, Republic and Collective Rule (and you don't settle city #2 until after Collective Rule), you have to generate 220 culture to get your free settler (4th policy). In contrast, if you skip the Tradition opener, you only need 105 culture to get to Collective Rule (3rd policy).

So, the question is, can you get to your 4th policy faster with the Tradition opener (and a delayed monument) than you can get to your 3rd policy with just Liberty (and an early monument)? Putting aside culture ruins and early cultural CS quests (neither affects this discussion, since they could apply whether or not you take the Tradition opener), unless you slot your monument in very early in your Tradition-opener build, the answer is no. The 3 extra culture from Tradition needs 39 turns to generate the additional 115 culture required to get to the 4th policy. Straight Liberty, with monument slotted in after one inital scout (I almost never do double scout), will get you to your 3rd policy by turn 40 or so (maybe turn 45+ if you suspend the monument when Pottery is researched to bang out a shrine before finishing the monument).

 

[skip11]

My question might get lost above but what do I do with Great Scientists? Do I make academies until public school is available?

 

[Fish Man]

My question might get lost above but what do I do with Great Scientists? Do I make academies until public school is available?

Yeah, you make academies until mid-to-late industrial. Always put academies near your city with NC. That way they get +50% science when worked.

The modern era is when units' start getting exponentially higher. If you get a GS during that era or later, bulb it. By that time, beakers acquired from bulbing exceed that of planting, AND if you get a vital tech earlier than an enemy, say electronics for battleships, then you win a lot easier.

 

[skip11]

@undefeatable: Thanks. What about if all the lands near the NC city are filled with farms? Just replace one of the farms then? Or is it better just to build them farther than the NC?

 

[joshua43214]

@undefeatable: Thanks. What about if all the lands near the NC city are filled with farms? Just replace one of the farms then? Or is it better just to build them farther than the NC?

Please don't hijack the thread. this topic has been covered extensively, start a new thread if you can't find an answer with search.

 

[Past Redemption]

@undefeatable: Thanks. What about if all the lands near the NC city are filled with farms? Just replace one of the farms then? Or is it better just to build them farther than the NC?

Generally speaking, you put the academies on hills,which you're likely working anyways for the hammers.

Please don't hijack the thread. this topic has been covered extensively, start a new thread if you can't find an answer with search.

Isn't that a bit harsh? Are we just not going to help out another beginner with an honest question?

 

[joshua43214]

No no, you got me all wrong.
I was talking about following order:

1. Open tradition for the 3 cpt
2. Open Liberty
3. Republic - Collective Rule - Citizenship
4. rest of Liberty
5. Whatever you want, be it fill rest of tradition, some patronage, commerce or exploration

you are sacrificing a perceived early benefit at the cost of the late game. This sort of thing has been kicked around and experimented with extensively. In vanilla opening both tradition and liberty was commonly done for tall empires because liberty was seriously OP. Since G&K, it pretty much ruins the late game policy wise.

I am also not sure why you feel you need a lot of culture in the beginning. What you need is the correct amount depending on your strategy. Too much culture early can be the worst possible thing, this is especially true if you plan enter rationalism the moment you enter the renaissance, and finish rationalism to get for the two free techs at a particular time. Getting an extra policy early drives the cost of your last policy up by a huge amount that might not be obtainable.

Also, if you are going tall, you need to finish tradition, not much around with liberty. Not finishing tradition right away will cost you something like 5 or more pop by the end of the game, that's the 5 or so pop you need to run specialists. Going liberty for a "free worker" is pure waste. I always have two in my cap by T30 from stealing and buying, I very rarely build one early. Its far better to hard build a monument while researching a lux tech. Then your free monument becomes a better free culture building when you get the tech.

If you are going wide early, then you certainly don't want to waste your time with early tradition, you want all the benefits of liberty plus the finisher in time to get an early wonder like pisa.