Science Wonders: Copernicus & Newton

[Ali Ardavan]

Most of my strategies include a science city. Two must have wonders in a science city are Copernicus Observatory and Issac Newton College. That these two help science output immensely is well known. How they do so is not since the Civilopedia entry on both is just wrong.

After searching the forum some and not finding anything I ran a battery of experiments to discover the details and here are the results.

To present the results properly first I need to discuss the effect of regular city improvements on science.

Assume
a = number of the arrows generated by your city that are used for science
s = number of scientists employed in your city
L = 0 if the city has no library, 1 if it does
U = 0 if the city has no university, 1 if it does
R = 0 if the city has no research lab, 1 if it does

Then the total science output of the city without any of the above wonders is:
(a+3*s)*(2+L+U+R)/2

Newton
According to Civilopedia it doubles the city's science output which is wrong. What it does is that it doubles the effects of the city's library, university, and the research lab. Thus the total science output of the city with Newton but without Copernicus is:
(a+3*s)*(1+L+U+R)
(Interesting observation: without any L, U, or R in the city Newton has no effect.)

Copernicus
According to Civilopedia it increases the city's science output by 50% which is wrong. What it does is that it doubles the science ouput of the city after the effects of regular city improvements and Newton are taken into account. Thus the total science output of the city without Newton but with Copernicus is:
(a+3*s)*(2+L+U+R)
And the total science output of the city with both Newton and Copernicus is:
(a+3*s)*(1+L+U+R)*2

 

[BlackAdder60]

Cool. This is really great info. Well done. On behalf of all of us Thanx a lot Ali Ardavan.

(I personally will have GREAT use of this info. Since I have been bitten by the OCC bug

 

[ElephantU]

Hurray! Another OCCer!

Copernicus, the cheaper of the two, is also the more powerful. I believe Nethog's Improvements and Wonders lists had the correct information, but your formulas are even more exact. If you are building a Super Science City getting Copernicus in as early as possible effectively doubles your research, and there is no sense to taking more than two turns to rush-build a University as that is multiplied as well. Good job.

 

[Steve1]

Interesting info about those wonders. Also, does OCC mean you only build one city and make it very powerful and productive before expanding your civilization? I often use a strategy like that, and once I have all/most of the techs and improvements in that city I'll start building up a huge howitzer army to take everything over.

 

[Yuri2356]

Interesting info about those wonders. Also, does OCC mean you only build one city and make it very powerful and productive before expanding your civilization? I often use a strategy like that, and once I have all/most of the techs and improvements in that city I'll start building up a huge howitzer army to take everything over.

OCC means that you only build one city, ever. You must then use that city to achive a spaceship victory as quickly as possible. It's a pretty interesting way to play a game, and quite fun for those who don't like to micro-manage hundreds of units and cities, as you only have the one.

 

[BlackAdder60]

OCC is great also because of the pace. An ordinary game of Civ-2 can take many days to complete, basically longer time the more cities you have.

With OCC you can complete a game in some 6-8 hours (at least I do, but there are so many talented players on this site, I wouldnt be surprised if some of them does it in a mere 1-2 hours)

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Thank you everyone for the praise.

OCC is great also because of the pace. An ordinary game of Civ-2 can take many days to complete, basically longer time the more cities you have.

Excellent point. In a limited time setting, like a GameOfTheMonth, often the choice is between OCC and not playing.

With OCC you can complete a game in some 6-8 hours (at least I do, but there are so many talented players on this site, I wouldnt be surprised if some of them does it in a mere 1-2 hours)

I do not know how long it takes others, but I cannot finish an OCC in 6-8 hours. It takes longer. I am playing GOTM45 as OCC right now and I have spent about 10 hours to reach 600AD.

I produce a detailed log along the way and that slows me down by at least a factor of 2; still finishing in 6-8 hours would be a challenge. Finishing in 1-2 hours is beyond me.

 

[BlackAdder60]

Thank you everyone for the praise.
Excellent point. In a limited time setting, like a GameOfTheMonth, often the choice is between OCC and not playing.
I do not know how long it takes others, but I cannot finish an OCC in 6-8 hours. It takes longer. I am playing GOTM45 as OCC right now and I have spent about 10 hours to reach 600AD.

I produce a detailed log along the way and that slows me down by at least a factor of 2; still finishing in 6-8 hours would be a challenge. Finishing in 1-2 hours is beyond me.

I have only played 2 games of OCC at prince level. It took me about that (6-8 hours) time. The more complex scenarios like GOTM is beyond me.
Any way I dont like it when others set it up for me.

 

[Specialist290]

I once finished a Warlord OCC in about 30 minutes. (Incidentally, it was between 6:30 and 7 AM, and I had to go to school at 7:15. One reason why I like playing them )

My last OCC attempt at Prince was a dismal failure.

 

[BlackAdder60]

I once finished a Warlord OCC in about 30 minutes. ..

WOW!!! Did you win?

 

[ElephantU]

I once finished a Warlord OCC in about 30 minutes.

I'm too much of a micro-manager to do an OCC in less than 8-10 hours spread over several days. Maybe we could have a "Speed OCC" competition, sort of like Speed Chess?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I once finished a Warlord OCC in about 30 minutes.

I had never played Civ2 below King level until the current GOTM which is at the Prince level. I know Warlord level is easier, but 30 minutes is still unbelievable.

I suppose if the world is small, your rivals closeby, and you get enough units out of huts to ruin their undefended cities one after another it is possible.

Wining by spaceship however is another story. It takes over 70 techs just to get started with a spaceship. It takes 24 turns to build the space ship and another 15 for it to arrive.

How did you win?

 

[Specialist290]

BA60: Yeah, I won that one

AA: The reason I was able to finish so quickly was because I built a bunch of Food Freight, set Tax to all science/lux, made a lot of Freight deliveries, and happened to end up w/ a massive tech lead over the other guys. When it got to time for building the SS, I switched to a Wonder, used the "Wonder Bread" trick, then switched back to an SS Structural/Component/Module. When I ran out of FFs, I started rushbuying. Then once the thing was in the air, I sentried/fortified all my units, put the city into Capitalization mode, and held my finger down on the ENTER key

Of course, this was a while ago, so I can't remember all the details.

 

[BlackAdder60]

AA: The reason I was able to finish so quickly was because I built a bunch of Food Freight, set Tax to all science/lux, made a lot of Freight deliveries,

You were delivering food to the city supplying it?
Is that a BUG I dont know about?

BA60: Yeah, I won that one
... used the "Wonder Bread" trick, then switched back to an SS Structural/Component/Module. When I ran out of FFs, I started rushbuying...

Whats the Wonder Bread Trick?
Whats FFs?

 

[Specialist290]

You were delivering food to the city supplying it?
Is that a BUG I dont know about?

No, the Food Freights were for the "Wonder Bread" trick, which I'll explain below.

Whats the Wonder Bread Trick?

"Wonder Bread" is where you build a bunch of Food Freights to rush a wonder in one or two turns. In this case, I would start building a Wonder, then when enough Freights were used, I'd change production to the SS part I needed. You don't lose any shields because SS Structurals/Components/Modules are considered in the same building class as Wonders.

Whats FFs?

Food Freights.

 

[ElephantU]

Actually, "WonderBread" is a term invented by Solo and Samson over at Apolyton.Net to describe a trick for reopening blocked commodity supplies. There is no "trick" to using Food freights for Wonder or Spaceship part building. Food freight is the default after your commodity supplies are all blocked. But Solo and Samson noticed that when you use a caravan or freight for building a wonder or part, any commodity supply that was not blocked by a trade route was freed up (if there was no active freight of that type in play). So the WonderBread trick is to build a Food, switch to a Wonder and contribute just the one Food toward it, which unblocks the commodity supply, then switch directly to building freights (which loses half the shields, but that is part of the cost) and finish the freight the same turn. If you have a demanding city with rail or ship chain for one-turn delivery, you can get this down to a two turn rotation (one turn if another city supplies the Food freight). If this is coming from your Super Science/Trade City, the payoffs can be astronomical...

 

[BlackAdder60]

But we were taking OCC here. You cant pull that of in the OCC type of game... or can you? If so how?

 

[ElephantU]

Works on any type of game, but with OCC you have to build the Food caravan/freight first, then use it to pull the WonderBread trick.

The trick works when your commodity supply list does not match your trade route list. For example, if you had this:

Supplies: (Silk), (Dye), (Copper)
Berlin Silk: +2
Thebes Copper: +4
Boston Dye: +1

You could not use the WonderBread trick as there are no commodities that are not blocked due to trade routes. But if you had this:

Supplies: (Oil), (Dye), (Copper)
Berlin Silk: +2
Thebes Copper: +4
Boston Dye: +1

Now you can use WonderBread to free the blocked Oil commodity. Start a Wonder and "contribute" a caravan or freight. This should "unblock" the blocked Oil supply. Now switch the wonder to freight and finish it. Voila - Food For Oil program!

 

[Specialist290]

Like I always say: I could be wrong