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Originally posted by calgacus


The Emperor's weren't warning against Christianity because they thought it would damage progress. They didn't like it because it compromised the authority of the Imperial government and of official Roman rites of public worship.

and what do you mean by "christianity was soaked through"?

not according to Aurelius- he sided with the publics opinion on the matter- and held them himself- the christians were heathens who would bring the downfall fo Rome.

as for "soajked through"- to maintain the symblanc of imperial authority, as for so long christianity had been enforced upon the populace, the germanics, like Odoacer in Italy, and the Franks, maintaind the religion so only to gain political advantagw ithe the Byzantine empire
 
Originally posted by Xen


care to explain where that whole concept of Equality, education, humanistic ideals went to?

how about those little inventions, you know, like that ever famous concrete, and steel, or perhaps that whole mehtod of consturction that allowed in one year the construction of what in the middle ages took 10?

-as for the "backwardness" of the byzantines, and Islam- there wern't- sure they lost things, just liek the resto f the world- but it is reveresd- it is the Byzantines, and the islamics who were at the forefrunt unti the re-birth in the west, not backwards

Those weren't inventions....rather, developments. The Romans had not concept of scientific progress or innovation. "Equality, education, humanistic ideals" were as foreign to the Roman world as potatoes and gunpowder. Those are products, ironically perhaps, of Christian civilization, not pagan Roman.

Even the early middle ages produced changes that equalled the Roman. Urbanization in the the north-west for one. Ships, armour, cavalry warfare, fortifications, music, all progressed faster in the barbarian west than they had ever done in Rome.

If you want me to be honest, I don't really think the Byzantines or Moslems were at the forefront. They advanced slowly, more slowly, if fact, that the West, even though they had a huge head start. All three successor civilizations were dominated by dogmatic traditions, and the West was the only one to overcome these I'm afraid.
 
Originally posted by Xen


not according to Aurelius- he sided with the publics opinion on the matter- and held them himself- the christians were heathens who would bring the downfall fo Rome.

Thanks Xen, that backs up what I said nicely! :goodjob:

Originally posted by Xen



as for "soajked through"- to maintain the symblanc of imperial authority, as for so long christianity had been enforced upon the populace, the germanics, like Odoacer in Italy, and the Franks, maintaind the religion so only to gain political advantagw ithe the Byzantine empire


I don't think so. Read Gregory of Tours. You will find that these Frankish warlords are genuiley religious. Most of these Germanic tribes were, in fact, Arian heretics...a fact which did nothing to endear then to Imperial authority. ;)
 
Originally posted by calgacus


Those weren't inventions....rather, developments. The Romans had not concept of scientific progress or innovation. "Equality, education, humanistic ideals" were as foreign to the Roman world as potatoes and gunpowder. Those are products, ironically perhaps, of Christian civilization, not pagan Roman.

and why is it then, that it just happens, that the human spirit, indipendent, and unabated, the inherent self value of EVERY one, an ideal that was held by the greeks, and roman, the very definiton of humanism, a ideal that dissapered during the middle arges, just happens to be deveopled by the christian civilzations during the rebirth- bull "crap"

Originally posted by calgacus

Even the early middle ages produced changes that equalled the Roman. Urbanization in the the north-west for one. Ships, armour, cavalry warfare, fortifications, music, all progressed faster in the barbarian west than they had ever done in Rome.

correct me if I'm wrong, but

A)lorica segmentata is just as, if not mORE advabnced then any type of armoud up untill the apperance of gunpowdr

B)when you have steel, and concrete, it sort of negates needing to adavance you plans of arms, and fortifacations

Originally posted by calgacus

If you want me to be honest, I don't really think the Byzantines or Moslems were at the forefront. They advanced slowly, more slowly, if fact, that the West, even though they had a huge head start. All three successor civilizations were dominated by dogmatic traditions, and the West was the only one to overcome these I'm afraid.

how? with few, if any exceptions, ALL of the western "innovations" were innovateing them right into what Roma had possesed centuries before them
 
Originally posted by calgacus


Thanks Xen, that backs up what I said nicely! :goodjob:
:goodjob: it also proves that I'm right :D

at least we can use the same point for our arguments, makes everythingmuch tidyer in the end I suppose



Originally posted by calgacus

I don't think so. Read Gregory of Tours. You will find that these Frankish warlords are genuiley religious. Most of these Germanic tribes were, in fact, Arian heretics...a fact which did nothing to endear then to Imperial authority. ;)

and which is why a good deal of them converted from arianism- to gain the favor of the Byzantine empire- and why some antics were done to further those ends as well

after all, I suppose its just a bit to unchrsitian to deny the divinty of christ...
 
Originally posted by Xen


and why is it then, that it just happens, that the human spirit, indipendent, and unabated, the inherent self value of EVERY one, an ideal that was held by the greeks, and roman, the very definiton of humanism, a ideal that dissapered during the middle arges, just happens to be deveopled by the christian civilzations during the rebirth- bull "crap"

The Greeks and Romans didn't have those ideas :lol:

That's gotta be the funniest and most ironic thing I've ever heard attributed to those pagan dudes. Graeco-Roman civilization was based on brutal slavery, brutally ferocious warfare and elitism. Christian civilization, on the other hand, discouraged all three of those.


Originally posted by Xen



correct me if I'm wrong, but

A)lorica segmentata is just as, if not mORE advabnced then any type of armoud up untill the apperance of gunpowdr

B)when you have steel, and concrete, it sort of negates needing to adavance you plans of arms, and fortifacations

a) No, not really. "Lorica Segmentata" was obsolete by the late imperial period. The Romans were not capable of the metalwork achieved by medieval civilizations. High medieval Frankish suits of armour are in a totally different league.

b) WTH??? How so? Little crusader fortresses like the Krak des Chevalier could never have been taken by Roman assault. Again, totally different league.

Originally posted by Xen


how? with few, if any exceptions, ALL of the western "innovations" were innovateing them right into what Roma had possesed centuries before them


Like what? :rolleyes: Like universal human value? :lol:

What later period are you referring to?
 
Originally posted by calgacus


The Greeks and Romans didn't have those ideas :lol:

That's gotta be the funniest and most ironic thing I've ever heard attributed to those pagan dudes. Graeco-Roman civilization was based on brutal slavery, brutally ferocious warfare and elitism. Christian civilization, on the other hand, discouraged all three of those.

hmmm...thats juat a little bit...WRONG!

eliteism- I am have a great deal of trouble seeing how you could even get the impression that having public laws, checks and balences, or at least a good syblanc of them, following the will of the people, and having all citizens equal under the law is "eliteism" especially when you compare it to medievalchirstialinity, when knowledge was locked up for privied use by monks, and somtimes the lucky nobleman, when laws were always for the noble born, when NO heed was given to the common man, no thank you calgacus, you may have been spoon fed this medicine, but I'll take a nice mouthfull of truth.

brutal slaver? yep, I wont deny it, or yes it was brutal, until you we see what he assorted "-blank-tenith" centuries had to offer- at least rome was civilized enough to rtelaize that ALL slavces were human- just at the wrong end of the spear point, and had a grand tradition of manumission- unlik the slavery christian nations developed, working them to death, sure it happend in rome as well, but if you think it was somthing the culture was based on, think again.

brutal warfare- yup, definatley, no shame in that, though hmmm... seem the christian nations had the same sort of ideas...





Originally posted by calgacus

a) No, not really. "Lorica Segmentata" was obsolete by the late imperial period. The Romans were not capable of the metalwork achieved by medieval civilizations. High medieval Frankish suits of armour are in a totally different league.

:lol: lorica segemntata was NEVER "obsolete"- Rome had lost tha ability to make it, due tothere amrours getting killed- and infact, this was due DIRECTLEY to christianity- most important jobs, such as amrourer were changed so the only christians could take them as an occupation- gee, thanks Constanitne :rolleyes:

Originally posted by calgacus

b) WTH??? How so? Little crusader fortresses like the Krak de Chevalier could never have been taken by Roman assault. Again, totally different league.

corrct me if I'm wrong, but Krak de Chevalier never had an imperial Roman army, armed with seigh towers, ballistae, cataputs od assorted ranges amd sizes, and several thousand men all armed with weaponry that would majke the nobility in the middle ages envious did they?

youir right though, the Roman army is in a tiotally differnt league the good ole' Kracky, stronger, better managed, better equipped.


Originally posted by calgacus

Like what? :rolleyes: Like universal human value? :lol:

well duh:rolleyes:

Originally posted by calgacus

What later period are you referring to?
:confused: what now? what do you mean- be more specific
 
Originally posted by Xen


hmmm...thats juat a little bit...WRONG!

eliteism- I am have a great deal of trouble seeing how you could even get the impression that having public laws, checks and balences, or at least a good syblanc of them, following the will of the people, and having all citizens equal under the law is "eliteism" especially when you compare it to medievalchirstialinity, when knowledge was locked up for privied use by monks, and somtimes the lucky nobleman, when laws were always for the noble born, when NO heed was given to the common man, no thank you calgacus, you may have been spoon fed this medicine, but I'll take a nice mouthfull of truth.

Yeah, medieval Christian society was in practise elitist too. Every society in history is. But, in principle, it wasn't.

The monks were noblemen, Xen. Do you think that access to learning was any wider than the elite in the Roman world or something?!

Originally posted by Xen



corrct me if I'm wrong, but Krak de Chevalier never had an imperial Roman army, armed with seigh towers, ballistae, cataputs od assorted ranges amd sizes, and several thousand men all armed with weaponry that would majke the nobility in the middle ages envious did they?

youir right though, the Roman army is in a tiotally differnt league the good ole' Kracky, stronger, better managed, better equipped.


OK, Xen, your posts are degenerating. You seem to be losing it. This is just troll...:(



Originally posted by Xen


well duh:rolleyes:

:confused: what now? what do you mean- be more specific


Need I repeat myself?! :cry:
 
Originally posted by calgacus


Yeah, medieval Christian society was in practise elitist too. Every society in history is. But, in principle, it wasn't.

The monks were noblemen, Xen. Do you think that access to learning was any wider than the elite in the Roman world or something?!
yes, there were things callee libraries and... wel yes, I do- and considering Rome had a public eduncation system...


Originally posted by calgacus

OK, Xen, your posts are degenerating. You seem to be losing it. This is just troll...:(

when you come is claiming, wronglly, that classical civilization is based on "brutal slavery, brutally ferocious warfare and elitism. ", and every other puctuation mark is smiley used "mock" the passage I just wrote, I tend to get more the just a little pissed





Originally posted by calgacus

Need I repeat myself?! :cry:

yes, now what "late period" are YOU refering to- late medieval, or late antiuquity...

(on a side note, my next respon will -probabely- not come until later, its time for school where I live now ;))
 
Originally posted by Xen
yes, there were things callee libraries and... wel yes, I do- and considering Rome had a public eduncation system...



The fact you think either 1) there were no medieval libraries or 2) that these libraries were more inaccesible to those outside of the elite, displays your unfortunate lack of knowledge regarding medieval civilization. Sorry to be harsh Xen. I like you and all, but you need to learn more about the middle ages if you want to successfully maintain these arguments that you're obviously so passionate about.


Originally posted by Xen

when you come is claiming, wronglly, that classical civilization is based on "brutal slavery, brutally ferocious warfare and elitism. ", and every other puctuation mark is smiley used "mock" the passage I just wrote, I tend to get more the just a little pissed

I didn't say that it was merely based on that. Please look again at the context of that statement


Originally posted by Xen


yes, now what "late period" are YOU refering to- late medieval, or late antiuquity...

(on a side note, my next respon will -probabely- not come until later, its time for school where I live now ;))


You said "ALL of the western "innovations" were innovateing them right into what Roma had possesed centuries before them". I was asking what (medieval) period you were referring to...
 
Originally posted by calgacus


The fact you think either 1) there were no medieval libraries or 2) that these libraries were more inaccesible to those outside of the elite, displays your unfortunate lack of knowledge regarding medieval civilization. Sorry to be harsh Xen. I like you and all, but you need to learn more about the middle ages if you want to successfully maintain these arguments that you're obviously so passionate about.

no harm done ;) I just tend to get pissey on things of this nature ;)

any way, it is a fact that most- including the best- libraries were destoryed as cnters of "pagan" (it should[/u[ be polyhteistic- pagan means :forest people"- I think you will agree, the Romans werento forest people ;))


Originally posted by calgacus

I didn't say that it was merely based on that. Please look again at the context of that statement

you said-


That's gotta be the funniest and most ironic thing I've ever heard attributed to those pagan dudes. Graeco-Roman civilization was based on brutal slavery, brutally ferocious warfare and elitism.



Originally posted by calgacus

You said "ALL of the western "innovations" were innovateing them right into what Roma had possesed centuries before them". I was asking what (medieval) period you were referring to...

pre-renassiance (blah, I cant spell, now you know whay I just post "re-birth" ;)) for the most part, though most of the re-development of ideals occured during it (or even afterwards)

most of the actual tech was re-made during the middle ages, but in no one specific perion, and other held out until well afterwards...
 
Originally posted by Masquerouge
Well, ok, Xen and Calgacus, but after all your debate, the question still remain : is Theodora one hot chick or not ? :D ;)

no :p I like my women real

:p :p :p ;)
 
Well :lol:
In fact after reading all your posts I wanted to point out that you went a bit far from the supposed subject of the thread, but the funny thing is that after so many long posts I forgot was what the subject of the thread and thought it was the one about "Theodora - one fit queen" :lol:
(Just so I won't forget, it's about the names of SGL ;) )
 
Sorry to interrupt. I actually had decided not to get involved in the discussion and just reading it, but there was one point I couldn't just ignore:
Originally posted by Xen
eliteism- I am have a great deal of trouble seeing how you could even get the impression that having public laws, checks and balences, or at least a good syblanc of them, following the will of the people, and having all citizens equal under the law is "eliteism" especially when you compare it to medievalchirstialinity, when knowledge was locked up for privied use by monks, and somtimes the lucky nobleman, when laws were always for the noble born, when NO heed was given to the common man, no thank you calgacus, you may have been spoon fed this medicine, but I'll take a nice mouthfull of truth.

:lol: :lol:
Following the will of the people? I'd really be interested to see what time you're talking about. The last time I checked, Rome was an oligarchy with some democratic dots. The comitia centuriata was composed of 193 centuriae. Approximately half of the Roman population, the proletarii or capite, held one (!!!) of them, the very few first two classes (Patricians and rich Plebejans) had together 98 and thus had the majority. That very insitution, then, appointed the officials like Praetors and consuls. How democratic!
I know that there were several insitutions the Plebejans got in order to spice up a bit their political possibilities, but Roman politics was never about the will of the people.
And, beside all that, such a characterization could never be define "Roman", unless you consider the whole Principate "unroman".
Not genuinely Christian, but genuinely medieval grassroot democratic principles (as seen in the oldest still existing parliament on Iceland or the Swiss Democracy) were much more democratic IMO than that pseudo-democracy in Rome.


brutal slaver? yep, I wont deny it, or yes it was brutal, until you we see what he assorted "-blank-tenith" centuries had to offer- at least rome was civilized enough to rtelaize that ALL slavces were human- just at the wrong end of the spear point, and had a grand tradition of manumission- unlik the slavery christian nations developed, working them to death, sure it happend in rome as well, but if you think it was somthing the culture was based on, think again.

Very bad troll. Although I'm not one of those who argue that christianity in itself was from the very beginning predestinated to pave the road for the abolishment of slavery, your argument is totally unfair. Slavery in the Christian context was always aware that slaves just were "at the wrong end of the spear point" as some passage in the Corinthian letters clearly states "There won't be Greeks or Jews, no freemen or slaves, they'll all be one in Christ Jesus." (or similarily). Manumission was an essential part of christian slavery, whether it was slavery in the papacy or also in Latin America. It was simply a late 18th cent./19th century thing that led to this kind of modern slavery you seem to focus on.
 
Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

Following the will of the people? I'd really be interested to see what time you're talking about. The last time I checked, Rome was an oligarchy with some democratic dots. The comitia centuriata was composed of 193 centuriae. Approximately half of the Roman population, the proletarii or capite, held one (!!!) of them, the very few first two classes (Patricians and rich Plebejans) had together 98 and thus had the majority. That very insitution, then, appointed the officials like Praetors and consuls. How democratic!
I know that there were several insitutions the Plebejans got in order to spice up a bit their political possibilities, but Roman politics was never about the will of the people.
And, beside all that, such a characterization could never be define "Roman", unless you consider the whole Principate "unroman".
Not genuinely Christian, but genuinely medieval grassroot democratic principles (as seen in the oldest still existing parliament on Iceland or the Swiss Democracy) were much more democratic IMO than that pseudo-democracy in Rome.

Time for a bit of education in the history of Roman government-

The Early Conflict of the Orders
Had the revolt against king Tarquinius and Porsenna been led entirely by the Roman nobility, then it was essentially only the Roman aristocrats (the patricii), who held any power. All decision of note were taken in their assembly, the senate. Real power rested perhaps with little more or less than fifty men. Within the nobility of Rome power itself centered around a few select families. For large part of the fifth century BC names such as Aemilius, Claudius, Cornelius and Fabius would dominate politics.
There was indeed an assembly for the people, the comitia centuriata, but its decisions all needed the approval of the patrician nobles.
The economic situation of early Rome was dire. Many poor peasant fell into ruin and was taken into slavery for nonpayment of debt by the privileged classes.
Against such a background of hardship and helplessness at the hands of the nobles, the commoners (called the 'plebeians ' (plebeii) organized themselves against the patricians. And so arose what is traditionally called 'the Conflict of the Orders'.
One believes that the plebeians were partly inspired by Greek merchants, who most likely had brought with them tales of the overthrow of the aristocracy in some Greek cities and the creation of Greek democracy.
If inspiration came from Greek traders within Rome's walls, then the power the plebeians possessed stemmed from Rome's need for soldiers. The patricians alone could not fight all the wars which Rome was almost constantly involved in. This power was indeed demonstrated in the First Secession, when the plebeians withdrew to a hill three miles north east of Rome, the Mons Sacer.
Several such secessions are recorded (five in total, between 494 and 287 BC, although each one is disputed).
Leadership of the plebeians was largely provided by those among them, perhaps wealthy landowners with no noble blood, who served as tribunes in the military. Accustomed to leading the men in war, they now did the same in politics.
It was either after the First Secession in 494 BC or a little later, in 471 BC, that the patricians recognized the plebeians rights to hold meetings and to elect their officers, the 'tribunes of the people' (tribuni plebis). Such 'tribunes of the people' were to represent the grievances of ordinary people to the consuls and the senate. But apart from such a diplomatic role, he also possessed extraordinary powers. He possessed the power of veto over any new law the consuls wanted to introduce. His duty was to be on call day and night to any citizen who required his help.


The fact that plebeian demands didn't seem to go further than adequate protection from the excesses of patrician power, seems to suggest that the people were largely satisfied with the leadership which the nobility provided. And it should be reasonable to suppose that, despite the differences voiced in the Conflict of the Orders', Rome's patricians and plebeians stood united when facing any outside influence.


The Decemviri
One demand voiced by the plebeians as part of the Conflict of the Orders was that of written law. For as long as there was no simply code of written rules, the plebeians remained virtually at the mercy of the patrician consuls who decided what the law was.
And so a commission was set up in 451 BC. It consisted of ten patricians. They were called the decemviri ('the ten men'). They were charged with creating a simple code of laws within a year. And after the year had passed, they had produced ten tables, listing the laws which should govern Rome.
But their work was deemed unfinished and so another ten men were appointed, this time consisting of five patricians and five plebeians, to complete the work. They held office for another year, in which they produced two more tables, completing the work which was to become famous as 'the Twelve Tables'.
However, during the time in which the decemviri were in office the Roman constitution was no longer in place. And so they ruled in place of the consuls. But when their year was up, they refused to resign and instead chose to rule by tyranny.
But their attempt to take over the state failed. The Second Secession had the plebeians walk out on Rome again, forcing the tyrannical decemviri to resign (449 BC).

It is worth mentioning that, apart from the above version of the tale, some historians believe that the same ten patrician devemviri ruled for two years, preparing the Twelve Tables. But when the plebeians deemed the laws not far-reaching enough, they forced them to resign and instead brought about the appointment of two more radically-minded consuls.


The Twelve Tables
And so came about the famous written Roman law, the Twelve Tables. The laws were engraved in copper and permanently displayed to public view. The twelve copper tables were a simple set of rules governing the public, private and political behaviour of every Roman.
Here are some examples:
Death sentences now were only allowed to be issued by the law courts. And the final court of appeal in death penalties would be the Comitia Centuriata. Previously some lenders had seen it fit to condemn some debtors to death who failed to pay. Regarding the problem of debt the law now stated that there was a maximum rate of interest. Anyone confirmed by the courts as owing a debt would be given thirty days to pay. After this he could be sold into slavery by his creditors.
Regarding theft; if a thief was a freeman he was flogged and then handed to the person from whom he stolen to repay what damage he'd done, if necessary by working for him. If the thief however was a slave he was flogged and then thrown to his death off the cliff of the Capitoline Hill known as the Tarpeian Rock.
No burials or cremations were allowed within the city walls.
The maintainance of roads was the responsibility of those on whose property they bordered.
It was an offence to cast or have a which cast any spells on someone else.
Marriage between patricians and plebeians was forbidden.
To demonstrate in the streets against an another person was forbidden. One was allowed to demonstrate for or against a particular cause, but not against a specific person.
One was permitted to remove a branch from a neighbour's tree which overhung one's property.
For the theft of crops there was the death penalty (clubbing to death).
For slander there was the death penalty (clubbing to death).
The levels of punishment for assault were also defined; the level varied according to the status of the person who had committed the crime. Harsher for a plebeian, milder for a patrician. And should the victim of the crime be a mere slave, the sentence was reduced yet further.
The laws also distinguished between an intentional and an accidental killing.
A father had to right to kill his deformed child.
And the historian Pliny the Elder tells us that the penalty for murder according to the Twelve Tables was less than that for stealing crops.


The Roman code of the Twelve Tables lasted as long as the Roman Empire itself. Though more importantly, it was the first time that written code was put down which applied right across the social scale from the patricians to the plebeians. The Twelve Tables are generally seen as the beginning of European law and are hence seen as a milestone in history.


The Later Conflict of the Orders
The Gauls having withdrawn and Rome being the confirmed leader of Latium, the old struggle between the patricians and the plebeians renewed in intensity again.
Naturally, it had in effect never gone away but had continued on as a process which now came to a head.
The small plebeian landowners ached under the strain of military service and the losses they had incurred during the invasion of the Gauls.
They looked with resentment upon the patricians who still commanded the consulship and so had access to decisions regarding what should happen to conquered land. Land no doubt many plebeians hoped for receiving a share of in order to alleviate their hardships.
And one major effect the wars had had on Roman society was to reduce the number of patricians significantly. Having a share of the army beyond their proportion of the populace, the patricians had had to suffer terrible losses during the wars.
Apart from this, several patrician families saw political advantages in championing the cause of the plebeians, so gaining vast popularity, but serving to further undermine the status of the patrician class. Largely these will have been the families of those who had intermarried between the classes, ever since it had been allowed in 445 BC.
Aside from this the wealthier plebeians now had their eyes on power, seeking to hold office themselves in which they should be able to propose laws rather then only being able to oppose them as tribunes of the people.
With the patricians weakened and the aspirations of the plebeians on the rise, the erosion of the constitutional differences between the two was inevitable.
The patricians put up a brave struggle, fighting in turn to keep each office exclusive to their kind. But once in 367 BC, with the passing of the 'Licinian Rogations' their cause was effectively lost. The Conflict of the Orders should last for several decades thereafter, but the winners were inevitably going to be the plebeians.


The 'Licinian Rogations'
Had the patricians put up of brave fight to defend their privileges, then it was their leader Camillus, the hero of patrician conservatism, who alas saw there was no other way. Camillus had even been appointed dictator twice to quell disorder. Or, as some might say, to enable the patricians to hang on to power for that little bit longer, in spite of the powerful tribunes of the people.
But the struggle was futile and so the Licinian Rogations, a bill combining the agrarian and constitutional demands of the plebeians, were passed in 367 BC.

The agrarian part of the Licinian Rogations was too easily evaded to be effective in the long run. But the enactment that thenceforth one of the consuls must be a plebeian was the death-blow to the privileges of the old aristocracy.
However, by that time the office of consul was largely a formal position. Varro describes the consul being called so, "as he consults the senate".


Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

Very bad troll. Although I'm not one of those who argue that christianity in itself was from the very beginning predestinated to pave the road for the abolishment of slavery, your argument is totally unfair. Slavery in the Christian context was always aware that slaves just were "at the wrong end of the spear point" as some passage in the Corinthian letters clearly states "There won't be Greeks or Jews, no freemen or slaves, they'll all be one in Christ Jesus." (or similarily). Manumission was an essential part of christian slavery, whether it was slavery in the papacy or also in Latin America. It was simply a late 18th cent./19th century thing that led to this kind of modern slavery you seem to focus on.

okay, your not an American, so cant be expected to know the facts on the subject- the white, primarilly protestant south of the pre civil war era, were, and to some extent, depending on the communitties, still are, very literally fundimentalist- and it show in there explinations of slavery- you have a GREAT deal of explination hinging on the fact that "Backs" were not truelly human, or rathera second class of human, or, to get to the religious point, that someboies brother was exiled into Africa, where his skin grew black, and craked, and evil ect...- the point being that enslaving africans by europeans, and descendent of them was condoned by the bible in full- an explination that IIRC, had been brwing ever since the first european contact out side the old bondaries of the european-near eastern, north african world.
 
On your "History lesson". Please don't be ridiculous. I decided not to study Ancient History there was little in these texts that were even slightly new to me. Actually you could have taken more time in chosing your evidence, I'm sure there's better arguments out there to prove the democratic spirit of Rome.

I know about the fights of the orders. The constitution of the comitia centuriata I mentioned was the very result of them. Just a quote from your text:
The fact that plebeian demands didn't seem to go further than adequate protection from the excesses of patrician power, seems to suggest that the people were largely satisfied with the leadership which the nobility provided. And it should be reasonable to suppose that, despite the differences voiced in the Conflict of the Orders', Rome's patricians and plebeians stood united when facing any outside influence.
Cough!
1. Even many dictatorships could count with the support of the populace. That hardly made them democratic.
2. After all, it was a hard conflict and the outcome was a compromise. Many people were probably happy that they had SOME result. That doesn't make a contitution with mostly oligarchic elements a democracy.
In the Middle Ages, for a very long time, peasant revolts did not happen. They only occured when the aristocracy took TOO much and life became unbearable. Does that mean that before they were happy with the system or it was democratic? Hardly.

The Roman Law, and in its beginning the Twelve Tables, were definitely one of the most useful and lasting thing the Romans gave us, that's uncontested (at least by me).
But the principle of "equal rights among citizens" was not invented by Romans, but by Greeks (isonomia). And Roman equal law was not complete - never. There was a legal(!) distinction in the access to offices and career between plebeians, equites and patricians throughout the Roman Republic and in the imperial time.

At last, let me remind that one of Rome's biggest friends among the Greeks, Plutarch, praised the Roman state as the perfect government because it endorsed in equal parts the most benefitial aspects of the three "good" governments Monarchy, Aristocracy and Democracy (the bad ones being Tyranny, Oligarchy and Ochlocracy)


Originally posted by Xen

okay, your not an American, so cant be expected to know the facts on the subject- the white, primarilly protestant south of the pre civil war era, were, and to some extent, depending on the communitties, still are, very literally fundimentalist- and it show in there explinations of slavery- you have a GREAT deal of explination hinging on the fact that "Backs" were not truelly human, or rathera second class of human, or, to get to the religious point, that someboies brother was exiled into Africa, where his skin grew black, and craked, and evil ect...- the point being that enslaving africans by europeans, and descendent of them was condoned by the bible in full- an explination that IIRC, had been brwing ever since the first european contact out side the old bondaries of the european-near eastern, north african world.

Oh yes, that crap.It's all about Noah's son Ham who happened to see his father naked when he was drunk and God punished him for that. Although Christian mythology has it, that Africans descend from Ham, making them second class humans is a very protestant and rather late interpretation. You won't find it in texts before the 17th century - and not frequently until late to the 18th. Of course, it is one Christian argumentation, but hardly historically representative for the Christian perspective on the subject. But I don't blame you. After all, you in Florida must have not few of those nutcases around.
 
Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin
On your "History lesson". Please don't be ridiculous. I decided not to study Ancient History there was little in these texts that were even slightly new to me. Actually you could have taken more time in chosing your evidence, I'm sure there's better arguments out there to prove the democratic spirit of Rome.

I'm not here to prove the democratic spirit of Rome0- only that the government followed the will of the people- democracy is direct participation by the citizens in government

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

I know about the fights of the orders. The constitution of the comitia centuriata I mentioned was the very result of them. Just a quote from your text:
Cough!
1. Even many dictatorships could count with the support of the populace. That hardly made them democratic.
:rolleyes: care to point to the exact time when I said it was?

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

2. After all, it was a hard conflict and the outcome was a compromise. Many people were probably happy that they had SOME result. That doesn't make a contitution with mostly oligarchic elements a democracy.
In the Middle Ages, for a very long time, peasant revolts did not happen. They only occured when the aristocracy took TOO much and life became unbearable. Does that mean that before they were happy with the system or it was democratic? Hardly.
this point in mute- the people of DID show when they were unhappy with the way things were- not when the aristocracey had taken to much, but when the populace just wanted more equality

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

The Roman Law, and in its beginning the Twelve Tables, were definitely one of the most useful and lasting thing the Romans gave us, that's uncontested (at least by me).
But the principle of "equal rights among citizens" was not invented by Romans, but by Greeks (isonomia). And Roman equal law was not complete - never. There was a legal(!) distinction in the access to offices and career between plebeians, equites and patricians throughout the Roman Republic and in the imperial time.

though i am not here to argue the merits of Roman democracy- it was Rome who was a republic before Athens was a democracy. This leads me for one to think that it was Rome who first developed the thoughts on such matters first- but did not put them into place, for, as perhaps you can tell, Roman politics took a back role to the wars of the republic, somthing Rome was ingaged in heavilly all throughout the period.


Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

At last, let me remind that one of Rome's biggest friends among the Greeks, Plutarch, praised the Roman state as the perfect government because it endorsed in equal parts the most benefitial aspects of the three "good" governments Monarchy, Aristocracy and Democracy (the bad ones being Tyranny, Oligarchy and Ochlocracy)

perhaps it was perfect in his veiw, and while an astonishing peice of work- in my eyes, it is far from perfect

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin

Oh yes, that crap.It's all about Noah's son Ham who happened to see his father naked when he was drunk and God punished him for that. Although Christian mythology has it, that Africans descend from Ham, making them second class humans is a very protestant and rather late interpretation. You won't find it in texts before the 17th century - and not frequently until late to the 18th. Of course, it is one Christian argumentation, but hardly historically representative for the Christian perspective on the subject. But I don't blame you. After all, you in Florida must have not few of those nutcases around.

bu tthe pretext for it was around for a long[ time there is no denying that- and when we look at history- and the treatment of non-christians, one definatelly gets the feeling of.. unequality in respect to there fellow man- or at least any one who did not share thire values. (note, I fully understand this is nto representitive on all christianity, but it dose make me biased towards likeing orthadox the bes tof the christian interpreations in use today- though i would never convert to it-)

*as a note, in Florida its not as common as you migth think, most people, my self included, are actually from up north- mostly, again, like me from New York
 
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