Scientific Victory: One More Condition

I don't get your Time Victory at all. Please make an example.

I'm not into a victory that asks for bulbing several Great Scientists in a row.

Guess this is the reason for this post. We all dislike that Science victory is the backup plan. It should be possible to win it with science before than a typical culture or diplo victory, if player performs well. It should be interesting in its own.
 
I'm okay with a successful Science Victory taking longer than a successful Cultural Victory; that makes sense. Seems to me the typical path to a Sci V may include playing some defense (whether by :c5culture: or by :c5war:) against the tourism leader.

I've never managed to get close to or seen any AI get close to a Diplomatic Victory, but I guess that's off-topic at this point.
 
I'm okay with a successful Science Victory taking longer than a successful Cultural Victory; that makes sense. Seems to me the typical path to a Sci V may include playing some defense (whether by :c5culture: or by :c5war:) against the tourism leader.

I've never managed to get close to or seen any AI get close to a Diplomatic Victory, but I guess that's off-topic at this point.

I did. But not on Communitas Maps. When your starting position is surrounded by 4/5 CS you think seriously in diplomacy.
 
I don't get your Time Victory at all. Please make an example.

I'm not into a victory that asks for bulbing several Great Scientists in a row.

Guess this is the reason for this post. We all dislike that Science victory is the backup plan. It should be possible to win it with science before than a typical culture or diplo victory, if player performs well. It should be interesting in its own.


My time victory is essentially the following idea.

Take the Science victory that we know now: you need all the spaceship parts in your Capital. Now, add to that the need to have Future Tech #3. This is my suggestion for "Time" Victory.

I'm saying that it's a "Time" victory because much in the way Time victory is structured now, there is a sense of inevitability about it: the slight change just makes endgame techs more usable and makes it easier to interfere with the win before it finally occurs at someone's hands.


I agree that I'm not a fan of just bulbing scientists for a win, but I WOULD like to brainstorm with you! It may include suggesting and bombing a whole pile of useless ideas, but perhaps we can get to one through that method.


My first random idea: What if a Civ had a certain % better science per turn and science per capita than anybody else? Suggesting landslide.
 
Nothing wrong with brainstorming. We already did that.

Problem is that no new features are going to be accepted, only minor modifications and tweaks. So minor that AI doesn't need to be trained again.


I realize that, which is why I'm trying to keep it simple. My modification to "Time Victory" doesn't really require much training to an AI, just more of a "realization." So the question for the Science Victory - what fits without making the AI go bonkers?
 
I realize that, which is why I'm trying to keep it simple. My modification to "Time Victory" doesn't really require much training to an AI, just more of a "realization." So the question for the Science Victory - what fits without making the AI go bonkers?

He, I really don't know. We just throw ideas and then Gazebo tell us 80% cannot be done, and with the rest he uses it for inspiration and does his own solution. And it works.
 
He, I really don't know. We just throw ideas and then Gazebo tell us 80% cannot be done, and with the rest he uses it for inspiration and does his own solution. And it works.

I like this plan. Let's get to it. :) What do you think, Gazebo?
 
Want a crazy idea?

Let's have several projects for building ultimate weapons, so a scientif civ can build these instead of wonders.
  • Ultimate copyright infringement: All civs lose the same gold per turn as the tourism they generate.
  • Ultimate press freedom: All civs generate +1 unhappiness for every military unit.
  • Ultimate free thought: Expending a Great Scientist adds atheist pressure to the city (the same as beakers). Cities not following any religion spread atheism and research 20% faster.
  • Ultimate brain drain: This civ gains/steals 5% of the beakers generated by the other civs.
These have to be very costly, so only one or two projects can be completed, and used as a safeguard. The idea is that every project is useful against a civ type, so you try to complete the one that hurts the civ that is annoying you more.
To avoid everybody building them, they could be available when the civ is yielding a number of beakers per turn. Like '150 beakers per turn unlocks building the Ultimate Free Thought', spend 2000 hammers in 20 turns or miss it. If you complete it in time, congrats, you have a tool against religious civs.
 
Want a crazy idea?

Let's have several projects for building ultimate weapons, so a scientif civ can build these instead of wonders.
  • Ultimate copyright infringement: All civs lose the same gold per turn as the tourism they generate.
  • Ultimate press freedom: All civs generate +1 unhappiness for every military unit.
  • Ultimate free thought: Expending a Great Scientist adds atheist pressure to the city (the same as beakers). Cities not following any religion spread atheism and research 20% faster.
  • Ultimate brain drain: This civ gains/steals 5% of the beakers generated by the other civs.
These have to be very costly, so only one or two projects can be completed, and used as a safeguard. The idea is that every project is useful against a civ type, so you try to complete the one that hurts the civ that is annoying you more.
To avoid everybody building them, they could be available when the civ is yielding a number of beakers per turn. Like '150 beakers per turn unlocks building the Ultimate Free Thought', spend 2000 hammers in 20 turns or miss it. If you complete it in time, congrats, you have a tool against religious civs.

Even at a high cost, those sound incredibly broken, especially Ultimate Press Freedom. In my current civ game as the Aztecs, I have over 40 units right now, so that's an immediate -40 happiness in one move, and an easy -20 for non-military civs AT LEAST.

We shouldn't bog down the Scientific Victory with more things to build, we should just give some kind of incentive to get more science/advance faster. I'm still putting the "get to the next era first to slightly reduce spaceship part cost" idea on the table, but as tu_79 said, that may be difficult to implement.
 
Want a crazy idea?

Let's have several projects for building ultimate weapons, so a scientif civ can build these instead of wonders.
  • Ultimate copyright infringement: All civs lose the same gold per turn as the tourism they generate.
  • Ultimate press freedom: All civs generate +1 unhappiness for every military unit.
  • Ultimate free thought: Expending a Great Scientist adds atheist pressure to the city (the same as beakers). Cities not following any religion spread atheism and research 20% faster.
  • Ultimate brain drain: This civ gains/steals 5% of the beakers generated by the other civs.
These have to be very costly, so only one or two projects can be completed, and used as a safeguard. The idea is that every project is useful against a civ type, so you try to complete the one that hurts the civ that is annoying you more.
To avoid everybody building them, they could be available when the civ is yielding a number of beakers per turn. Like '150 beakers per turn unlocks building the Ultimate Free Thought', spend 2000 hammers in 20 turns or miss it. If you complete it in time, congrats, you have a tool against religious civs.

Crazy ideas are fun - but what does this have to do with the 5th victory condition (assuming we take my "Time" victory as a given)? :p

I mean, Science victory could also be having 10 more Wonders built than anyone else in the world - which would make sense, as it would imply superior technology, superior production, and the will to use it. It could be an interesting way to go, and again not much training for an AI.
 
Crazy ideas are fun - but what does this have to do with the 5th victory condition (assuming we take my "Time" victory as a given)? :p
Just throwing more ideas.

I mean, Science victory could also be having 10 more Wonders built than anyone else in the world - which would make sense, as it would imply superior technology, superior production, and the will to use it. It could be an interesting way to go, and again not much training for an AI.

Except that now it's cultural civs who get to build wonders, not scientific ones.
 
Even at a high cost, those sound incredibly broken, especially Ultimate Press Freedom. In my current civ game as the Aztecs, I have over 40 units right now, so that's an immediate -40 happiness in one move, and an easy -20 for non-military civs AT LEAST.

Yes, that's totally broken, but at least it gives something to fear of. And we may tweak it a little if needed (you can say 1 unhappiness every 2 military units if you please more, but many players are over 60 happiness). Projects are quite easy to implement, I think, gives something to do for those scientific civs. Expensive? Who cares? It's not that you want to build everything, only buildings that help to your victory. And risky too, for you may not have enough hammers/beakers to make it in time. So there's a way to stop a civ from building a project: force it to spend hammers in something else.

I don't how it would work with current AI, probably it will need some training, and I have little faith that it gets on the table, but it's something interesting, both for scientific civs and for those facing them, and feasible.
 
The current scientific victory is the only victory that requires zero interaction with other civilizations. That's the point: it is the 'no one else is cooperating with me' victory, and that's what it should remain as. The fact that it comes at the very end of the tech tree is part-and-parcel of what makes it a scientific victory. You complete all techs, you build the most advanced space ship possible at that time, and you colonize another planet. You are the first interstellar empire. I don't see any reason to change that. If the problem is that players aren't getting to the end of the tech tree at a competitive rate, I just need to adjust the tech costs downwards a bit for the information era.

G
 
The current scientific victory is the only victory that requires zero interaction with other civilizations. That's the point: it is the 'no one else is cooperating with me' victory, and that's what it should remain as. The fact that it comes at the very end of the tech tree is part-and-parcel of what makes it a scientific victory. You complete all techs, you build the most advanced space ship possible at that time, and you colonize another planet. You are the first interstellar empire. I don't see any reason to change that. If the problem is that players aren't getting to the end of the tech tree at a competitive rate, I just need to adjust the tech costs downwards a bit for the information era.

G

I suppose that's true. All these suggestions and spinballings aside though, my only real problem with the Scientific Victory is that it just seems unfulfilling compared to other victory conditions. There's always that pressure to get all the best wonders for a cultural victory, and a domination victory is nothing but pressure, but there's no real concern or goals in mind when going for a scientific victory aside from...focusing on science. Even with this in mind, it's not too hard to close a scientific gap thanks to stealing and tech trading, so the whole victory just feels very meh to focus on until the late-modern/eary-atomic era at least.

If the conditions for the Scientific Victory aren't changed, I can accept that. I just feel there should be some kind of incentive/aid for the scientific victory that you can try to accomplish throughout the game (or at least once you reach the industrial era where technology begins to take off in the first place).
 
I suppose that's true. All these suggestions and spinballings aside though, my only real problem with the Scientific Victory is that it just seems unfulfilling compared to other victory conditions. There's always that pressure to get all the best wonders for a cultural victory, and a domination victory is nothing but pressure, but there's no real concern or goals in mind when going for a scientific victory aside from...focusing on science. Even with this in mind, it's not too hard to close a scientific gap thanks to stealing and tech trading, so the whole victory just feels very meh to focus on until the late-modern/eary-atomic era at least.

If the conditions for the Scientific Victory aren't changed, I can accept that. I just feel there should be some kind of incentive/aid for the scientific victory that you can try to accomplish throughout the game (or at least once you reach the industrial era where technology begins to take off in the first place).

The science victory is more about preventing other victories than gaining one. That's the nature of the beast, and I think that has its own unique gameplay style. You can't let some UN decisions slip through, massive wars will slow down your science, and if you ignore tourism, you'll get taken over via influence.

G
 
The science victory is more about preventing other victories than gaining one. That's the nature of the beast, and I think that has its own unique gameplay style. You can't let some UN decisions slip through, massive wars will slow down your science, and if you ignore tourism, you'll get taken over via influence.

G

Perhaps it's this. Scientifics are just defending, they need to keep a close eye on other civs to recognize threats, but then you don't really have your own unique weapons to counter those threats, and sorry but this isn't fun (this post exists to prove it). In vanilla you could bribe other AIs into fighting themselves, but now? You need massive (or very modern) armies to keep defended and you need some allied CSs to prevent hurting WC decisions (you need also some culture/tourism production to avoid being influenced, except that you really cannot, because if you do that then culture victory is at hand). So when you win a scientific victory is like: "I want to win this way no matter what", "I wan't to see how is it like once in a while" or "Damn, I cannot possibly finish off my last oponents in time, so I rather launch the rocket". That's why we say scientific victory isn't beloved here.
Also, non scientific civs have to keep an eye on other civs but on scientific ones. Scientific civs now are like the time endgame (what I dislike): if you cannot win before turn 440, then you'll lose to the scientific civ, but if you crumble that civ, you have 60 more turns to try. They aren't perceived as a threat, perhaps because they aren't much a threat, and get ignored or abused.

It's ok to not focus on anything until Middle-Ages or Renaissance (except for early warmongers). But then some civs start filling their museums and wonders, others start to pass some damaging WC ressolutions, and others start amassing and using huge conquering armies. What does the game offer for those pursuing a scientific victory? Not much. Trying to do everything (armies, cs and arts) while pushing for beaker production usually leaves this civ quite exposed. Also, if you want to research really fast, you have to stay very small, so you don't have much space for art pieces, nor terrain for deploying units, and most CS are too far away. What scientific civs really need is entertaining ways to slow down other civs, so they can launch the rocket.

While being technologically advanced has some advantages, you don't have anything unique to do. It cannot hurt, gameplay wise, to let scientif civs have something else to threat other player's progress, so they have something to counter-attack, not only defend.
Their huggest weak point, that raising culture/tourism may make them lose the science path, could be addressed by making artifacts yield beakers along with culture. This increases artifacts demand, so it's making it a little more interesting for cultural civs too.
The other problem, not having something unique to do, can be addressed by this projects thing I proposed, or by any other already proposed thing that actually makes you do something.
 
While being technologically advanced has some advantages, you don't have anything unique to do. It cannot hurt, gameplay wise, to let scientif civs have something else to threat other player's progress, so they have something to counter-attack, not only defend.
Their huggest weak point, that raising culture/tourism may make them lose the science path, could be addressed by making artifacts yield beakers along with culture. This increases artifacts demand, so it's making it a little more interesting for cultural civs too.
The other problem, not having something unique to do, can be addressed by this projects thing I proposed, or by any other already proposed thing that actually makes you do something.

I'm not really sure what game you're playing, but in civ5, being technologically ahead means you've got massive advantages to everything. Comparing that to tourisms few points of gold from a trade-route or conquests nothing, tech comes out ahead every day of the week.
 
I don't felt so in my games.

Technological advantage means access to better units, access to better buildings which in turn means more yields, it also means faster road, improved specialists, improved improvements, access to more strategic resources which means more yields. Science is king in this game which is why there are so many necessary catchup mechanics.
 
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