Scouting techniques

[BlackWizard]

Let's say send out your unpromoted East-Going Zax at T0. He has a sight range of 2, there are 5 tiles on his leading edge of vision, and he as moves 2 hexes each turn he is unfogging 10 new hexes. My West-Going Zax spends 15 turns getting to +2 vision. When he starts moving his leading edge of vision is 9 hexes, and unfogs 18 new hexes when he moves. But at T15 it’s 0 hexes to 150 hexes in your guys favor. Looks pretty good, no?

At T30, your is still winning, but now the score is 270 to 300, and you can see where the math is going...



Absolutely this is true. Which is why I framed my question as I did! (As an aside, this being true is the only reason scout-monument-scout might be competitive with scout-scout-monument.)



A scout camping a CS for a worker needs at least +1 vision. Scouts looking to steal workers from AI really need +2 vision. You are not helping your argument!

Scouts really need the +2 vision to be most effective. But when is the least-bad timing to pause scouting to do that?

Your calculations are off. In very ideal situation you can get +2 visibility(+ moderate amount health) in only 15 turns! It very rare to get it so fast...30xp is 15 shots from archer or 6 melee attacks. One melee attack almost kills scout even on hills so you have to back away and miss one turn helaing. More realistically it will take at least 30 turns to get 2 vision. During those 30 turns most ruins are gone and you get no ruins benefit. However it is beneficial to get +2 vision at some point after ruin scouting is done

 

[consentient]

At T30, your is still winning, but now the score is 270 to 300, and you can see where the math is going...

You've missed the opportunity cost of CS you could have met first; ruins; worker steal opportunities; not to mention key information about your neighbours and and what kind of map and game you can expect. All of this is worth a lot more than improved scouting from the turn your # of revealed tiles eclipses the East-going scout...

 

[Emtee]

I still don't see how you can level up the Scout that easy and especially that fast. The only way that is even remotely realistic is to fortify on a hill next to an archer for 15 turns, but would the scout even survive that?

In my experience scout upgrades are very situational. The default upgrade if nothing is happening is the sight range but if the scout has taken damage and is at risk of getting pressured by more barbarians I'll get the defense+heal to be able to keep moving right away.

 

[BlackWizard]

I still don't see how you can level up the Scout that easy and especially that fast. The only way that is even remotely realistic is to fortify on a hill next to an archer for 15 turns, but would the scout even survive that?

In my experience scout upgrades are very situational. The default upgrade if nothing is happening is the sight range but if the scout has taken damage and is at risk of getting pressured by more barbarians I'll get the defense+heal to be able to keep moving right away.

With raging barbarians it might be possible. Attack with your city and attack with scout. Scout is inside city all time so healing very fast(25hp per turn) But very rare

 

[johnnybaseball]

If you DoW an opponent early in the game, sometimes they will fortify a scout near your borders. That is a good opportunity to pump out a scout of your own and attack the AI's fortified scout while standing within your own cultural borders to heal faster. It's the only unit you can comfortably attack with a scout. If you get Scouting 3, that scout can help you with war for the rest of the game. I had a Scouting 3/Mt Kilmanjaro scout and he could move so far and see enemy cities from hills a long way from the front line.

 

[Bleidraner]

Sorry but I know for a fact that 1 and 2 are wrong because I've seen ruins being swiped by a CS border, seen plenty of them on snow.

I have never seen a ruin on snow. Yes on every other type of terrain except water. Amazing after the 1000s of hours I have spent on this bloody game. Guess there is always something new to learn.

 

[ToborajniN]

@OP: You say you tend to keep your warrior on flat terrain most o fthe time. I always try to end my turns on a hill for extra vision. Same thing with scouts.

As usual, everything Acken says is true. The terrain surrounding your own cap is very important to fully explore, and I also try to get a scout out to find the AIs as quickly as possible for the lowered science costs. Ruins are imo just a bonus and not something I commit 100% into finding.

Regarding the promo's for scouts: Why take the defence over the vision? With the extra vision you rarely come under attack anyways.

Regarding vision promo for CS worker stealing: That point is pretty much invalid. By no means do you 'require' the vision upgrade. It merely helps you a bit. It's still easy enough to steal a worker without it.

 

[beetle]

By no means do you 'require' the vision upgrade. It merely helps you a bit. It's still easy enough to steal a worker without it.

CS worker steals require that you camp outside of CS territory vision range while waiting for a worker to improve a tile on the border. Without extra vision, either you can lucky with hill (so your unit can see in, but theirs cannot see out) or each turn you move your unit 1 hex in, nab the worker if he is there, otherwise move back out.

So yes, the people saying you don't need extra vision for CS worker stealing are technically correct. You need it because otherwise it is just too damn tedious.

 

[Acken]

Borders have only a 1 tile range vision but it's increased by 1 for hills. So:

#1. CS border tile (empty) ---- Empty tile ---- Scout on flat
#2. CS border tile (empty) ---- Empty tile ---- Scout on hill

In #1 your scout is not visible by the CS.
In #2 your scout is visible because the hill is visible.

If the empty tile is a forest or a hill it can block vision.

In all cases scouts only have 2 movements so the benefit of +1 vision is not to be further away (since you'd be 3 move away) but to see better if you'll survive or survey more possible stealing spots.

 

[beetle]

So, I would appreciate some feedback on what I think is the more interesting question I raised.

When is the least-bad time to level up scouts? With early scouting being so valuable, I agree taking time early is bad. But +2 vision is a great thing, and certainly can't wait for armories, so you have to do it before the barb camps are all but gone. So when? Maybe after turn 50 or so?

 

[consentient]

My view is that there is absolutely no point at all levelling up scouts. Use them to find your neighbours, work out what type of victory you want to pursue, what Wonders are doable, etc. - i.e. garner all the useful info you can. Then either delete them or garrison them in your cities (if you are playing Honor).

 

[beetle]

Well, especially on the coast, the +2 vision can make the difference between meeting a CS or having to wait until you disembark. Also, I have picked up plenty of ruins off shore that I only spotted at all because of +2 vision. Finally, with +2 vision they can spot for arty (but the AI loves to bomb them). I like sitting scouts on archeology sites, but they don’t need the extra sight for that duty.

 

[mbbcam]

Thanks to everyone for their posts. Some interesting points have been made. I don't have much time to play at the moment, but I'm sure I'll make use of these various ideas.