SE question

[DarkFyre99]

If you are getting the majority of your beakers from specialists/great people then it is a SE. Period.

In the example I described, I would be getting the majority of my beakers from the specialists (primarily through bulbing and trading, which provides a huge ton of beakers early-to-mid game) while the commerce cities are simply paying my huge maintenance bills from so much conquering.

I'd still consider that a hybrid economy, since you're not getting almost all your research from specialists. If you haven't bottomed out your science slider, then you're running a hybrid.

A CE is a CE because you get almost all your beakers from converted commerce. Beakers from specialists are considered a byproduct of a GP farm. An SE is an SE because you get almost all your beakers from specialists. If you're getting any beakers from commerce, it's a sign you need to go to war again or you need to build a bigger army.

 

[UncleJJ]

I'd still consider that a hybrid economy, since you're not getting almost all your research from specialists. If you haven't bottomed out your science slider, then you're running a hybrid.

This is a poor definition of an economy. Why do you define it only in terms of beakers? What happened to gold, culture and EPs? Are they not part of any viable economy too?

If you are getting the majority of your beakers from specialists/great people then it is a SE. Period.

Futurehermit makes the same error. You have both, in my opinon, chosen an arbitrary definition. A lot of your problems understanding how to run these economies and their differences stem from that misconception.

An Economy drives your whole game, not just the research part of it. You have to consider gold and EPs as part of your economy and culture as well if you are going for a cultural victory.

A CE is a CE because you get almost all your beakers from converted commerce.

No, it is a CE because it gets most of its commerce from cottages and it runs civics to emphasise that. It has nothing to do with where the science slider is set. A commerce based cultural game would set the culture slider high. An espionage economy would set the the EP slider high. A CE simply uses a lot of cottages and emphasis the civics and technologies to do that efficiently.

 

[obsolete]

SE is SE if you have none or only one cottaged city. More than one cottaged city means CE or hybrid IMHO.

This has given me some thought. I can't help it that the AI spams cottages all over (cause it's stupid). So, when I capture cities, even though my original are going 100% SE, I guess technically I am now running a CE or hybrid and not even aware of it.

All this time I've been misleading the whole community, and myself. No one will ever trust me again...

 

[Bleys]

I view the CE vs SE question as more of a "slider" than anything black and white. I think almost every single game uses a hybrid of some form (other than the firm "no cottages on the map" ones). Most SE proponents will keep the "Economy Slider" down on the Specialist end, while the CE people will put them at the Cottage end.

So if you're planning to run an SE style game, that doesnt mean you cant benefit from some well placed cottages. Ignoring this powerful game feature is kind of like a self-imposed difficulty condition. By the same token, if you are planning to use cottages as the bulk of your commerce, smart usage of specialists is also a positive strategy move.

Even the extremes have a small taste of both, captured cities usually have a cottage or two, and I doubt there are many "strong" examples of CE games without a specialist or two in a few cities. Of course, as I said, players can purposely handicap themselves, pillage captured cottages, avoid specialists, whatever, but those examples are REALLY deep in the "curve" of the Economy Slider.

Before anyone asks, no, there is no "Economy Slider" in any version of the game, heh.

 

[futurehermit]

Futurehermit makes the same error. You have both, in my opinon, chosen an arbitrary definition. A lot of your problems understanding how to run these economies and their differences stem from that misconception.

An Economy drives your whole game, not just the research part of it. You have to consider gold and EPs as part of your economy and culture as well if you are going for a cultural victory.

Well, it depends on how you define "economy" as to whether I am giving out arbitrary definitions or not. I think of it in terms of beakers/tech but if you want to think of it in terms of gold/ep/culture then sure what I am describing is more of a hybrid economy. That doesn't mean I am giving out arbitrary definitions just that I am choosing a specific definition that is different than yours

 

[Iranon]

It would make more sense to define economies by what you are trying to leverage rather than imposing artificial and irrational restrictions.

I would keep it simple and say that the defining aspect of running a SE is to be as independent of commerce as practicable, using specialists to provide most of your basic needs.
This doesn't mean one can't build a single cottage. However, a big draw of the SE is the ability to crank up culture whenever you need happiness*. If you do so often, cottages won't pull their weight.
Nothing in Civ4 is tha simple though: Sometimes cottages are still a good use of the land. Large expanses of flood plains come to mind: they allow huge cottaged cities where specialist cities can't reach their full potential thanks to the health cap.


* Despite popular perception, the same does not apply to maintenance. Compared to a CE, a reduction from 100% science to an even split with gold will set back a SE less... but it will also generate a lot less additional gold so the comparison is unfair. In fact, since output per population point is lower, maintenance might hit harder... I haven't really done the maths to be certain though.

 

[Beamup]

Well, it depends on how you define "economy" as to whether I am giving out arbitrary definitions or not. I think of it in terms of beakers/tech but if you want to think of it in terms of gold/ep/culture then sure what I am describing is more of a hybrid economy. That doesn't mean I am giving out arbitrary definitions just that I am choosing a specific definition that is different than yours

Except that one definition makes sense and works, while the other does not. Specifically, if you swapped all your scientists for merchants and ran up the science slider instead, then by your definition that changes an SE to a CE - which makes no sense. Similarly, building courthouses so that you can boost the science slider would do the same thing.

Given that beakers/gold/EP/culture are largely convertible (via slider settings and specialist choice), the only truly meaningful thing to look at is the *total* thereof.

 

[DarkFyre99]

This is a poor definition of an economy. Why do you define it only in terms of beakers? What happened to gold, culture and EPs? Are they not part of any viable economy too?


Futurehermit makes the same error. You have both, in my opinon, chosen an arbitrary definition. A lot of your problems understanding how to run these economies and their differences stem from that misconception.

I run my economies quite well, thank you very much. What's holding me back is I'm not a very efficient tech trader.

Anyways, the focus of an economy has always been about aquiring technology. You always need gold to pay your bills, but unless you've got a special purpose in mind (such as converting all those highly promoted privateers to destroyers) it's not the focus of your economy. You want just enough to pay your bills, and that's it.

Nine times out of ten, if you're touching the culture slider, it's for happiness not actual culture. The exception is when you're going for a cultural win, and you've got a ton of mature towns in the cities you're using. Most of the time, all the culture you need for the first border pop is produced as a byproduct of other things like religion or buildings.

Same way with espionage. Unless you're planning on a lot of spy missions, you get all the espionage you need as a byproduct of other things, like building courthouses.

Culture and espionage are rarely concerns. Even aquiring gold is a secondary concern. But aquiring technology... that's the primary concern.

An Economy drives your whole game, not just the research part of it. You have to consider gold and EPs as part of your economy and culture as well if you are going for a cultural victory.

Of course you do. But it's aquiring technology that's the focus of your economy. In most cases, aquiring technology is about researching techs, and trading them. Research requires beakers and/or bulbing with Great People, which is why the CE vs SE debate has always focused upon the source of your beakers, as opposed gold, culture, and now espionage. Aquiring technology is the main focus of an economy. Everything else is in a support role, except in a few rare cases such as a cultural win.

No, it is a CE because it gets most of its commerce from cottages and it runs civics to emphasise that. It has nothing to do with where the science slider is set.

Only in the sense that having 1000 commerce at 50% gives you more beakers than having 500 commerce at 90%. You're still getting your beakers from commerce, not other sources.

A commerce based cultural game would set the culture slider high.

I assume you mean a game where you're trying for a cultural win, where you ran a CE until you're ready to make the sprint to Legendary status.

I've done something similar with an SE... only I turned my scientists into artists, rather changing my sliders. It made more sense than waiting for a ton of cottages to mature.

An espionage economy would set the the EP slider high. A CE simply uses a lot of cottages and emphasis the civics and technologies to do that efficiently.

But it's still about aquiring technology. An EE steals techs from the leader then trades them. If you called an EE a CE, then a lot of people would be confused.

A CE is understood to be cottages and the technologies and civics that maximize them in which the focus is to aquire technology through research and trade. The sole exception is one GP farm which yields random Great People, used for bulbing, golden ages, or their unique functions.

An SE is understood to be specialists and the technologies and civis that in which the focus is to aquire technology through research, strategic bulbing, and trade. The sole exception may be the capital, for the purposes of maximizing the bureacracy bonus.

An EE is understood to be aquiring technology through the use of espionage and trade. Commerce is preferred over specialists because the buildings that allow spy specialists, except for the courthouse, come late in the game.

An economy's focus is aquiring techs. If you're getting them through the use of cottages, then you've got a CE. If you're getting them through the use of specialists, then you've got an SE. If you're getting them through the use of espionage, then you've got an EE.

If you're getting them through a mix of several methods, such cottaging most cities while running Caste System to generate Great Merchants in one city, and Great Scientists in another city, then you've got a hybrid.

 

[futurehermit]

Except that one definition makes sense and works, while the other does not. Specifically, if you swapped all your scientists for merchants and ran up the science slider instead, then by your definition that changes an SE to a CE - which makes no sense. Similarly, building courthouses so that you can boost the science slider would do the same thing.

Given that beakers/gold/EP/culture are largely convertible (via slider settings and specialist choice), the only truly meaningful thing to look at is the *total* thereof.

That's why I was saying that the focus should be what you are getting the majority of your beakers from. If you swap your scientists to merchants and crank up the slider, you are still running a SE because your beakers are coming from those merchants, just via the sliders, which does NOT make it a CE, which gets those same beakers through cottages.

TBH, I don't understand why people want such an extreme definition of SE and CE. Just because you have laid down some cottages to pay for maintenance doesn't mean imo that you aren't running a SE with multiple (2+) cities cranking out GSs to bulb and trade to--by far--bring in the majority of your beakers/technology. Some people like to include hammers in considering what makes an economy as well. Am I to say that I don't run a SE because I am getting some hammers from mines instead of from GEs and GPs???

 

[Beamup]

By the exact same argument, in your example your beakers are coming from the cottages, being converted via the specialists. Either it's about the beakers, or it's about the total of everything.

This illustrates exactly my original point - you're adjusting your definition based on the situation to ensure that, no matter what, it's defined as an SE!

 

[futurehermit]

By the exact same argument, in your example your beakers are coming from the cottages, being converted via the specialists

What?

 

[obsolete]

For the reccord, IIRC futurehermit was one of the SE founding godfathers on the forum if you search back enough...

Just warning anyone incase they plan to get into a big heated arguement...

As for the 'Hammer economy' that sums up my strategy pretty much. Everything to maximize hammers. Which then I filter to commerce with currency when I need, or filter to beakers when i want science, and I filture to pure production for military/wonders. Most of that is fueled by the intense hammers as the raw source. However, I stopped calling it a hammer-economy when someone came up with the term WE for Wonder Economy. Which I realized sort of makes sense, and sounded cool. But since the settled specialists make up a big part, probably more than the running specialists, I tag on SSE instead of SE to make the big distinguishment. Of course I could say SSE/SE/WE but that's getting a little... too much. We know you don't HAVE to have SE to get a SSE, but common sense implies there will be a little SE in there at some points.

 

[Beamup]

What?

You claimed that your beakers would still be coming from the merchants. The thinking apparently being that they were what provided the funds to allow a high research slider (if it was otherwise - and I can't begin to see any *other* argument - please explain).

By the same argument, I can say that the cottages in your original example are allowing you to run scientists instead of merchants and that therefore the beakers are coming from them. It's really *exactly* the same argument.

For the reccord, IIRC futurehermit was one of the SE founding godfathers on the forum if you search back enough...

Yep. And one of the worst about trying to win CE vs. SE arguments by redefining anything that performed better into an SE, whether it made sense or not.

 

[madscientist]

To be honest, what difference does it really matter whether it's called an SE, CE or hybrid. The bottom-line is to win the game. An SE fueled with lot's of farms and specialists can still have some cottages, and I really don't see a problem with a hybrid or switching over. Seam's to me like there's too much bickering over semantics.

 

[Beamup]

The difference is having clear, meaningful definitions so that productive discussions of strategy can take place. If person A says something about an SE on one definition, but person B would call that a CE, then effective communication has not occurred. Similarly, if all credible economies are classified the same way, then the definitions are useless because they don't distinguish between anything of relevance.

 

[Bleys]

TBH, I don't understand why people want such an extreme definition of SE and CE. Just because you have laid down some cottages to pay for maintenance doesn't mean imo that you aren't running a SE with multiple (2+) cities cranking out GSs to bulb and trade to--by far--bring in the majority of your beakers/technology.

/concur.

One sure difference is in the choice of civics, if you never run Caste System/Representation combo, then its almost a given you have a CE, despite the probable presence of specialists in many cities.

By the same token, running that combination of civics isnt very strong if you dont have a lot of farms to feed as many specialists as possible. Sure, its likely you have a cottaged city or two, especially your capitol if you're a careful city-specialization planner, but I think Bureaucracy civic is powerful for both "economies".

But back to futurehermit's point, I guess I am not sure why its important to label things so definitively. If you actually pick them both apart, "economy" is the wrong word, especially in the case of the SE. Maybe we should call them "Tech Drivers", a Specialist based Tech Driver, or a Cottage/Commerce based Tech Driver. Because as it has been pointed out, thats the ultimate target of both techniques, research.

 

[madscientist]

The difference is having clear, meaningful definitions so that productive discussions of strategy can take place. If person A says something about an SE on one definition, but person B would call that a CE, then effective communication has not occurred. Similarly, if all credible economies are classified the same way, then the definitions are useless because they don't distinguish between anything of relevance.

To be honest, that definitely has NOT been how I have read these forums the past year. I understand what you are saying, but it aint gonna happen.

Myself, I played the game about a year before finding this site and pretty much figured out the power and limitations of a specialist economy myself although these forums have improved my primitive SE game tremendously. SO from my first post I could figure out what a SE was, at when I got the abbreviations down.

I think each post whould be considered by it's own question. There is no real pure CE or SE discussed unless someone clearly states it.

 

[Beamup]

Just because it ain't gonna happen is no reason not to observe and argue that it would be better if it did. I recognize that I'm not likely to change any minds, but that's not the point.

 

[Grey Fox]

Exactly. Almost every economy is a Hybrid if we are gonna be picky. But to be able to determine what our economies are, we have to find out what is the engine behind it.

A civ that runs with max food, no cottages, and specialists in all cities is an Extreme SE. A civ that runs specialists in two cities, settles them all in the food richest city, and are having their economy basically run by these two cities are also an SE, just not as extreme.
A civ that uses cottages on most of their tiles and almost no specialists other than a few, and maybe a city with more specialists to use the National Epic's effect can be called a CE, maybe an Extreme CE if it basically tries to use cottages in all their cities on maximum amount of tiles.

It's all pretty basic actually and not very precise.

On another note. I've run a sort of Hybrid economy where I focused on wonders and specialists, with cottages/wind mills and water mills being the focus on improvements, to make every tile as Golden Age suitable as possible and then using as many golden ages as possible. That was fun.

 

[Sjaramei]

Funny, lots of definitions here

The purpose of SE was getting Great people quick and bulb and trade abuse yourself to the top right? So, if you do this and run appropriate civics you are running an SE, if you got a couple of cottages here and there, what difference does it make? The basics of the economy is whats important, CE generates Scientists and stuff for academies so why shouldn't SE get some cottages to help with the gold? In the end you pick the best from both to get the best result anyway, so in a sense almost everyone is running Hybrid E. anyway.... but that doesn't explain the basics of your economy so.... pick the one closest, "pure" SE and "pure" CE is handicapping yourself, so definitions shouldn't be those.

But i remember reading about the switch early-mid game SE, late game cottaging over farms and running emancipation. Because SE was weak late game, people switched, (or won.. ) but with the introduction of food corps, representation and specialists can add quite a punch to your research rate late game too. Is it only me who runs representation and lots of specialists late game in BTS? Granted i use a lot of cottages too, but even with a small empire Sushi can bring 3-4 specialists to every city you have. I almost never used specialists in warlords/vanilla (well i sucked a bit too then, but... ) while in BTS i'm using more specialists for research than ever, because of the easy food corp/representation combo. Maybe SE is moved to late game in BTS?