SE question

Personally re: def'n of "economy" I agree more with Beamup and UncleJJ... the only meaningful definition is the total consideration of commerce/beakers/gold/beakers/etc. in regard to the input/output formula your empire is using.

Anything that affects the inputs or outputs of that formula would be a part of your economy.

I personally would not include culture in the formula, except so far as it may be affecting the output. e.g., if I put the culture slider at 10%, then the plain fact of reducing my commerce by 10% is part of my economy. However, the culture I gain thereby is not part of the economy, IMO. Another example: a culture-producing building is not a part of my economy (unless of course it also adds hammers or something like that).

Now, to some extent you guys are arguing about labels. What's in a name? Honestly. A "espionage economy" does NOT mean "you get the majority of your research from espionage". I'll disagree with that definition until I'm blue in the face. ;)

All it means is that you have an economy, and you are giving it a hefty supplement via espionage. You are thus characterizing your economy by giving it a label of "espionage economy"... this does not mean the added research is >50% of your economy, it simply is a distinctive feature of your economy.

When we talk about economies all we really care about is that makes your economy distinctive. Who cares if you have a couple of cottages in your SE? Not me.

The point of a label is merely a short cut to allow a meaningful and intelligent discussion to take place without you first having to give an essay saying exactly how you had your sliders and what all you were doing. Saying "espionage economy" or another label such as "CE-leaning hybrid" lets us proceed with the discussion without all the felgercarb.

Wodan
 
Now, to some extent you guys are arguing about labels. What's in a name? Honestly. A "espionage economy" does NOT mean "you get the majority of your research from espionage". I'll disagree with that definition until I'm blue in the face.

Well, to be honest. My BtS games (once we get to industrialism age) involve all tech from spies. I run the max (7 spies) in each city, all under rep. This researches tech for me, and at the same time I use their spy PTS to steal other techs.

Of course, if I build the internet and I'm behind, I often ride off that project for a while. But even with the internet I'm often still forced to use my spy-economy.

P.S. Just for the reccord, I'm not saying going for a spy economy turn 1 is a smart thing to do. I'm talking about late stage here.
 
I'd guess you get more research from your spies than from espionage. 7*4 is 28 per city, plus modifiers (say 100%) so about 50 per city. 10 cities is 500/turn.

A great spy / espionage gets you, what, 2500 points? That translates directly to the rate of a 5-turn spy getting beaker-equivalent tech, correct? If so, then that's only 5 turns of a 10-city empire.

Anyway, I defend your right to call it an Espionage Economy, whereever you get the majority of your research. ;)

Wodan
 
I only build 6 cities, anything else is a bonus. But the math doesn't work out right, because I crank up the spy slider which changes things a lot. Not to mention nationhood, etc.
 
I only build 6 cities, anything else is a bonus. But the math doesn't work out right, because I crank up the spy slider which changes things a lot. Not to mention nationhood, etc.
Sure, whatever. I agree it's a fun and viable strategy.

Wodan
 
Thank you for your reasoned reply, I appreciate your clearly argued points. :)

Thanks. Nothing's more fun than bouncing ideas off each other, IMO, especially when we disagree. Who knows when something good might be shaken loose?

I accept that there are times in a game when research is the focus of my economy and I said that the Liberalism race is one such time. But there are other times when it is not like the middle of a war when gold and EPs are worth more than beakers. Hence my economy is about more than research and it is most definitely not properly defined by only considering the beakers it produces or the technologies I gain.
Oddly enough, I do the same at times. But I've always viewed it as "shutting down my economy," to produce gold, culture, and of late espionage. In other words, I'm sacrificing my long-term strategy to achieve a short-term goal. But it's always a temporary measure.

If I need 5000 gold to upgrade my units right before I invade, then I shut down everything (research, espionage, and culture) to produce the gold ASAP so I can return to my economy to normal. If I need 500 extra espionage points to ensure that my pair of spies in that border city with the castle can successfully perform the "incite revolt" mission, then I shut everything down to produce the espionage points... except for just enough gold so I don't go broke.

Gold and espionage are means to an end, not an end in and of itself. In the end, it's the techs you have that helps the empire grow... and wins the game.

Forgive me I am not familiar with the term "form" I suspect this is something like a subsystem. I was trained as a systems engineer many years ago :old: so I'll stick with my own terminology ;) I can't see how an economy is just a strategy and not a "thing" or subsystem that performs a task. It has inputs and outputs. My economy has its own "economic strategy" so it is an aspect of the game like diplomacy or the military which also have their own strategies.
Subsystem is probably a better term. As I said before, we seem to be approaching the same thing from two different directions. You seem to be focused on the input and the output.

I seem to be focused on how the subsystem itself... what I use to turn the input into the output.

My economy is based mostly on my cities and takes their tiles and population plus civics as its inputs and produces beakers, gold and EPs for global use and culture and GPPs for local use. Stricty it should also include hammers as well but let's leave that extra complication for now and discuss that later ;)
My economy is based mostly on the resources and land I have, and what strategy I should use to exploit them for maximum effect. Long before I settle my second city, I've already decided what tile improvements I'll be using and where, what buildings will be built, what civics I'll ultimately be running, which technologies will have priority, what specialists I will be running, and where cities will be founded and in which order. The dot-map of a future CE looks a lot different than the dotmap of a future SE.

And I agree that we should keep hammers out of this discussion. :hammer2:

I am indeed considering it as a thing (game subsystem) that outputs beakers, gold, espionage globally plus culture and GPPs locally. I think that is akin to the standard definition of a real economy in the real world. The US economy is quantified in terms of trillions of dollars of GDP but in real terms that is a host of manufactured goods and services along with small amount of research that is produced each year. The economy in Civ4 is a much simplified analog of that.
Like I said, we're approaching it from two different directions. When I think of the US economy, I don't think GDP. I think of terms like "capitalist," "free market," or sometimes "Social Darwinism." The economy isn't about what you produce, but how you produce it (and how many people you step on to do so.)

In my terms I use my economy to produce a mixture of beakers, gold and EPs depending on what I want to do in that game at that time, expressed in terms of my diplomatic, military and other strategies. I use an economic strategy to determine where the various commerce sliders should be and what specialists to run and also whether I should build courthouses, marketplaces or universities in my cities to boost one or other of the economic outputs from my economy in the longer term.

You seem to be defining what I would call only one part of my economy as the whole of your economy. Tell me what do you classify gold as? Is there a gold economy in your definition?
I classify gold as a necessary evil. :evil: When I need it, I get it. When I don't need it, I get enough to pay my bills. Keeping a treasury just doesn't make sense given the fact that we don't earn interest on our treasury... but we certainly have to worry about inflation!

That is an interesting idea, though, about a gold economy... after acquiring currency and alphabet, maximize gold output and buy your techs rather than research them yourself. It would certainly reduce the number of buildings you'd have to build, and has the advantage of flexibility as well. Given that there is no equivalent of Representation to boost the output of merchant specialists, this strategy almost requires cottages.

( Still wouldn't call it a CE though. :p )

Disadvantage is you have to have someone else research the tech, and they have to be willing to trade it to you. Unfortunately, you'll probably hit the WFYABTA wall fairly quickly.

Beakers can only be used for researching a technology and so are the least flexible output of my economy but gold and EPs have a variety of uses. They can be used to acquire technology in certain special ways. With gold I can boost research by deficit spending or just buy a technology from another civ (if they're willing to sell). With EPs I can see what the other civs are researching and adjust my own research strategy and with enough EPs steal a technology. But both gold and EPs have other uses that affect the other important strategies in the game, my military strategy (unit upgrades, city revolts and seeing where troops are), my diplomatic (bribes and seeing what is researched).
All quite true... except I'd say culture is the least flexible output from commerce and specialists... and the one that gets wasted the most. Beakers may not be as flexible as gold or espionage... but if nobody has a tech you need, you can't buy it nor can you steal it. That leaves direct research or 'bulbing if you have the right Great Person.

Beakers may not be flexible... but IMO they are the most powerful.

As I said before, unless you're planning on a lot of espionage missions, you don't need many EPs. The cost for "view demographics" and "view research" passive missions are low, and usually within the reach of the EPs you get from courthouses... which are practically required buildings these days.

You say "economy" = "technology aquisition strategy" is the standard :sad: That is a strange arguement. Looking at it the other way around it is easy to test your argument. My "technology aquisition strategy" includes gaining technology from goody huts, by self research (part of my economic strategy), by trading (diplomatic strategy), by extortion (military strategy) and by stealing (espionage strategy). I can see trading with other civs has an impact on the self-research strategy and thereby the economic strategy (since you don't need to produce those beakers) but it also has diplomatic and possibly military implications. Do you consider trading to be part of your own economy? I consider it external and outside of my control a bit like goody huts or extortion. Stealing a technology (via an espionage strategy) requires lots of EPs and so like research is part of my own economy that I can control to a considerable extent.
Goody huts are random, so you can't control them. They're not a strategy... just like hoping to get the Truffles random event isn't a strategy. Trusting to luck isn't a strategy. It's what you do when a strategy fails. :mischief:

Acquiring technology militarily is almost as bad IMO. You might get the tech you want. You might also end up with a vassal rather than the tech. You also might find yourself at war with your bigger neighbor because you refused to accept your enemy's capitulation without the tech, and your neighbor wasn't as picky :eek: I go to war to take the land I need. Getting a tech or two in the process is a bonus.

To trade techs, you need a tech that other Civs don't. And that means you need to acquire techs. You can't rely on goody huts, and acquiring them military is almost as bad IMO.

So where does that leave you? What are your options? research, buy, or steal

Researching a tech requires a lot of beakers... often to the point of neglecting excess gold and espionage. Your options for acquiring beakers are converting commerce from cottages (and other sources of commerce), scientists, and 'bulbing great people. The civic Representation boosts the output of scientists (and increases the beaker yield of other specialists) and the civic Caste System divorces the number of scientists, merchants, and artists a city can run from the buildings it has built. The civics free speech and emancipation boosts the output of cottages.

Buying a tech (without a tech of your own to sweeten the pot) requires a lot of gold... often to the point of neglecting espionage and research. Your options for acquiring gold are converting commerce from cottages, merchants, and Trade Missions from Great Merchants. Unlike scientists, merchants don't have an equivalent of Representation to boost their output, so cottages yield more gold than merchants... but merchants generate Great Merchants for Trade Missions. But if you want merchants, then Caste System allows you to have as many as you can kept fed.

Stealing a tech requires a lot of EPs... often to the point of neglecting research and excess gold. Your options for acquiring EPs include converting commerce, spies, and the "infiltrate city" mission of Great Spies. Spies are as bad as engineers: they aren't influenced by Caste System so you need buildings to run them, the buildings you need to run a lot of them come late in the game, and there's no Civic that boosts their output. Even more so than gold, cottages are the way to acquire EPs.

There are three different ways of acquiring techs through research. There's two different ways of acquiring techs through espionage. There's two different ways of acquiring techs through gold. Cottages are viable options for all three methods of acquiring techs. Specialists, as a method of acquiring techs, are a viable option only through research. Great People have utility as both 'bulbing and their special abilities.

Code:
Table 1 - Methods of Acquiring Techs vs Sources of "commerce"

                cottages    specialists     'bulbing   mission
research          good         good           good       N/A
purchase          good         poor           N/A        good
steal             good         poor           N/A        good

As you can see, your definition of "cottage economy" doesn't tell anyone what your primary method of acquiring techs is, either for personal use or for trade. Are you building all those cottages to research the techs you need? Are you buying them? Are you stealing them? More information is needed to know what you're doing, as opposed to what your inputs are.

As you can also see, your definition of "specialist economy" really only suggests one method of acquiring techs: research. 'Bulbing using the output of a GP farm is random, so you can't plan for getting a specific type of Great Person, while 'bulbing using Great People generated by many cities running specialists is highly predictable, and thus can be part of a plan.

You don't need multiple cities running specialists to acquire Great Merchants and Great Spies for their missions requires a single city running specialists primarily for the purpose of acquiring a Great Person. The normal output of those specialists is incidental to their output of GPPs.

How you get gold doesn't tell us anything about your strategy unless you're buying your techs. How you get espionage points doesn't tell us anything about your strategy unless you're stealing techs.

But how you aquire techs? That can tell us a lot.
 
I'm fairly new to SE, but I usually have most of my cities running a specialist or two if they can afford it, but there is usually a small number of core specialist cities. Ususally, I'll have a Super Science City, a GP farm (that ends up putting out a lot of research, too, since for at least the first half of the game I mainly want Great Scientests to help with research) and a merchant city. This usually works pretty well with me, I've just moved up to Prince and already I'm having no trouble dominating in tech.
 
Well, I still hold to my weak debating skills and my trivial positions that there were aggressive attacks on my position and that defining the term "economy" is actually important. I agree with the position that, for me, economy means "how in the heck I'm getting my technology". However, if you want to include gold, culture, espionage points, great people points, hammers, and so on, then that changes the definition of economy (duh) and I would change my position accordingly. Some experts have argued quite convincingly that hammers are part of your economy, which I haven't seen anyone other than myself mention thusfar. Does that mean that I'm not running a specialist economy if I am getting my hammers from mines instead of engineers and priests?

For my economy, in the first sense, I only really care about technology, although of course I understand that paying the maintenance bills costs money which can be included in a definition of economy in a second sense. I was saying it is viable to consider economy in the first sense as a valid definition and some others vehemently disagree with that notion. That's fine, I understand your position and you are welcome to it. That doesn't mean that I'm fundamentally wrong and should immediately change my position, because I'm surely not the only one that holds it on these forums and many of these people are better players than I am.
 
For goodness sake, what a load of histrionic nonsense, in the last few posts (#44 to #48). No one has been “aggressive” in this thread. Some language was forthright but not the least bit offensive. Everyone has addressed the points at issue until these last few posts. No one has made a personal attack on anyone that I can see (please show me where). So let’s cut out the childish accusations and people taking sides.

Well, aside from the courteous comments you have made yourself in this statement, there have been things said like the following that I feel have been uncalled for in this thread:

And one of the worst about trying to win CE vs. SE arguments by redefining anything that performed better into an SE, whether it made sense or not
 
Thanks. Nothing's more fun than bouncing ideas off each other, IMO, especially when we disagree. Who knows when something good might be shaken loose?
I wholeheartedly agree. No point in discussing things we agree on.
Oddly enough, I do the same at times. But I've always viewed it as "shutting down my economy," to produce gold, culture, and of late espionage. In other words, I'm sacrificing my long-term strategy to achieve a short-term goal. But it's always a temporary measure.
I understand what you are arguing but think it is an inferior way of thinking about the problem. :p You seem to be neglecting important parts of the game with this approach. By including gold and EPs (at least) into your concept of an economy (i.e. total output from all your cities derived from their population working tiles) you have the ability to trade one commodity for another. You can also form an opinion of the "strength" of your economy, which is a sort of GDP (but not the Civ4 definition given on the graphs). For me the turn by turn strength of an economy is the beakers, plus net gold (income minus costs) plus EPs.

An important consideration when comparing beakers to gold to EPs is their relative worth. For instance take a simple case early in the game when your capital has an academy and you have libraries and a few monasteries in most cities but no markets yet. Your cities have good building multipliers for beakers but none for gold. That means that increasing the research slider will increase the beakers more than the decrease in gold. Say you get 15 beakers but lose 10 gold by increasing research slider by 10%. This means 10 gold is effectively worth 15 beakers for your empire at this stage of the game. That is your gold to beaker exchange rate (through commerce)

This is useful to know as it means that if you have the option of building either wealth or research with hammers, clearly you should build wealth for gold and then raise the research slider by 10% for every 10 gold you can build to gain 15 beakers rather than building research for 10 beakers. That is a net gain of 50% for doing it the right way over the wrong way. Also if you can sell an old tech to another civ for 100 gold you know that is actually worth 150 beakers to you if you choose to use it to boost research. I often use these techniques when in the Liberalism race.

Since we’re clearly exchanging one commodity (gold) for another commodity (beakers) we have something more than the simple research based economy you are thinking of. This is the central part of my argument for considering the economy to be the combined output of beakers, gold and EPs. They have different relative exchange rates which are affected by the various buildings you have in cities and by some civics.

If I need 5000 gold to upgrade my units right before I invade, then I shut down everything (research, espionage, and culture) to produce the gold ASAP so I can return to my economy to normal. If I need 500 extra espionage points to ensure that my pair of spies in that border city with the castle can successfully perform the "incite revolt" mission, then I shut everything down to produce the espionage points... except for just enough gold so I don't go broke.
You are just supporting my argument for looking at the economy as the combined output of beakers+ gold+ EPs. What you are really saying here is "I need gold so I will forgo the beakers I really value to get it". Effectively you're turning beakers (which you want) into gold (which you need) in your mind. That is an economic transaction. Maybe you didn't realise that is what you do. However, I consider that is thinking about the problem the wrong way round and it is really the beakers that come from gold and we'll get to why I think that way later.
Gold and espionage are means to an end, not an end in and of itself. In the end, it's the techs you have that helps the empire grow... and wins the game.
Here we part company, if anything gold is the most fundamental output of your economy. Your empire will survive with no research and without EPs but you need enough gold each turn or your army deserts and your neighbours take advantage of you :eek: . Gold is also the basic output from commerce and doesn't have its own slider. Any commerce not turned into beakers, culture or EPs automatically becomes gold. In that sense it is the most basic of the economic commodities.

I see EPs as another special form of gold that has a restricted use. It can be allocated towards other civs (by raising the EP slider turning what would be gold to EPs) but can't be recovered easily. It is valuable but has restricted use.
My economy is based mostly on the resources and land I have, and what strategy I should use to exploit them for maximum effect. Long before I settle my second city, I've already decided what tile improvements I'll be using and where, what buildings will be built, what civics I'll ultimately be running, which technologies will have priority, what specialists I will be running, and where cities will be founded and in which order. The dot-map of a future CE looks a lot different than the dotmap of a future SE.
This is a paragraph that I could have written. You clearly have an economic strategy for the development of that land, the placement of the cities and the tile improvements. That is a part of your future economy that you’re considering, each city you build and grow is part of your economy and its outputs are a contribution to beakers, gold and EPs (which are the commodities your economy produces and you need in varying amounts to play the game)
And I agree that we should keep hammers out of this discussion. :hammer2:
Fine, but I want to note that they really do form part of the economy in its fullest sense. Building military units are an output of your empire in the same sense that EPs are. You need both of them to defend against and to attack other civs. Also note that a SE with its many farms has a lot more food than a CE and can through Slavery produce a lot of hammers in a short time. That means a technology like Education is rapidly exploited by getting 6 universities for Oxford and a technology like Engineering can result in a large stack of trebuchets very quickly. Essentially a SE sacrifices its specialists ( who were producing beakers, gold, EPs and GPPs) in the short term for hammers. That is an economic and a military strategy. Let’s leave it there as hammers certainly complicate the discussion a great deal, but in principle they are same as the commerce like commodities.
Like I said, we're approaching it from two different directions. When I think of the US economy, I don't think GDP. I think of terms like "capitalist," "free market," or sometimes "Social Darwinism." The economy isn't about what you produce, but how you produce it (and how many people you step on to do so.)
You seem to be confusing several ideas and descriptions about what a real life economy is and what it does. A real life economy produces goods and services which are made by the workers and factories, mines and farms. The real US economy takes farmers, miners and office workers and pigs, hens, corn, coal mines, steel works and so on as inputs and it produces sausages, eggs and bacon, cars and skyscrapers and services like music, TV programmes, and insurance and so on. An economy is all the economic activities that take place. The GDP measures the strength of the US economy in terms of the value (in dollars) of the total output.

Capitalist and free market are terms that describe how the economy functions internally and with other economies around the world. They describe the type of the relations that are possible between the agents (farmers, factory workers, managers, supermarkets) that make the economy work. They are not the economy themselves but rather the type of economy it is like a CE is a type of economy that has particular relationships between its much simplified elements (e.g. Towns and Free Speech)

P.S. I am not an economist, perhaps someone reading this who is can help us understand any parallels between the economy in Civ4 and a real life one.
I classify gold as a necessary evil. :evil: When I need it, I get it. When I don't need it, I get enough to pay my bills. Keeping a treasury just doesn't make sense given the fact that we don't earn interest on our treasury... but we certainly have to worry about inflation!
This seems extremely neglectful. I hope you don’t treat your personal finances in such a cavalier fashion :P

Seriously, I think you’ll agree that gold in Civ4 has value. So a treasury full of gold is better than an empty one, if nothing else you can fund deficit research or deficit EP production which translates gold into other valuable commodities needed in the game. Gold is often a store of value. You can’t store beakers they have to be spent that turn on a technology that you might be able to get another way and in that sense they would be wasted.
That is an interesting idea, though, about a gold economy... after acquiring currency and alphabet, maximize gold output and buy your techs rather than research them yourself. It would certainly reduce the number of buildings you'd have to build, and has the advantage of flexibility as well. Given that there is no equivalent of Representation to boost the output of merchant specialists, this strategy almost requires cottages.
A pure gold economy has been done in the past, way back in vanilla I seem to remember reading somewhere. It relies on maintaining good diplomatic relations with the sellers. The AIs seem to have problems selling military techs
( Still wouldn't call it a CE though. :p )
You need to think why that is. I can’t see any good reason.

Disadvantage is you have to have someone else research the tech, and they have to be willing to trade it to you. Unfortunately, you'll probably hit the WFYABTA wall fairly quickly.
The guy running the gold only economy mentioned those limitations. I think you really have to run a combined gold and beaker economy to make a success of it.

Beakers may not be flexible... but IMO they are the most powerful.
I look forward to you justifying this opinion in all games and in all circumstances (you didn’t qualify your statement :p )

As I said before, unless you're planning on a lot of espionage missions, you don't need many EPs. The cost for "view demographics" and "view research" passive missions are low, and usually within the reach of the EPs you get from courthouses... which are practically required buildings these days.
Courthouses are pretty much essential in any city. But they will not be enough to keep pace with EPs in the late game when the costs of the passive missions can rise rapidly. Early on they’re all you have besides castles and raising the EP slider

Goody huts are random, so you can't control them. They're not a strategy... just like hoping to get the Truffles random event isn't a strategy. Trusting to luck isn't a strategy. It's what you do when a strategy fails. :mischief:
There is a strategy associated with goody huts. You can’t predict what you’ll get but with a scout it is always something good. Early game, build another scout and pop a few more huts before the AI get them. That’s a strategy. I often send an explorer with my caravel on the circumnavigation quest. Any huts he passes get popped and a couple of times it’s been Astronomy he discovered …a very handsome reward for my little strategy. The explorer can also help complete the circumnavigation quest so it is a dual purpose strategy. I admit it is not a major strategy or reliable but it is a way to pick up a technology you’d otherwise have to research.
Acquiring technology militarily is almost as bad IMO. You might get the tech you want. You might also end up with a vassal rather than the tech. You also might find yourself at war with your bigger neighbor because you refused to accept your enemy's capitulation without the tech, and your neighbor wasn't as picky :eek: I go to war to take the land I need. Getting a tech or two in the process is a bonus.

To trade techs, you need a tech that other Civs don't. And that means you need to acquire techs. You can't rely on goody huts, and acquiring them military is almost as bad IMO.
Actually, you can beg a tech from a friendly AI for nothing. That is counted as a trade but I’m not sure what the chances of success are. Also buying a tech with money which you describe below is also a trade and counts towards WFYABTA. In general trading for techs is based on trading your techs and gold for their techs and gold with an in built bias in favour of the AI, they always ask for a little bit more than a fair trade in simple beaker terms. It doesn’t matter how you acquired the techs you use in trade unless you set technology brokering on in a custom game (to stop AIs trading away your unique tech). I see each tech used in trade as a package of beakers which is comparable to the beakers your economy produces each turn. If you acquire a tech worth 2000 beakers and you produce 500 per turn the tech is “worth” 4 turns of research in some senses.

Stealing a tech requires a lot of EPs... often to the point of neglecting research and excess gold. Your options for acquiring EPs include converting commerce, spies, and the "infiltrate city" mission of Great Spies. Spies are as bad as engineers: they aren't influenced by Caste System so you need buildings to run them, the buildings you need to run a lot of them come late in the game, and there's no Civic that boosts their output. Even more so than gold, cottages are the way to acquire EPs.
Actually, the Nationhood civic gives a very nice +25% boost to EPs :) I think you’re making this sound more difficult than it is in reality. When I run a SE, without pyramids, I often beeline towards Constitution for its Representation and jails. I whip in the jails and then switch civics to Representation and Nationhood (during the Golden Age the Taj Mahal gave me :) ) Now my courthouses and jails give 6 passive EPs and a +50% EP to add to the +25% from Nationhood and sometimes the +25% from a castle. That +100% bonus suddenly makes a spy specialist very useful, giving 8 EPs and 6 beakers (with library and university) for just 2 food. My best cities are then running 3 spies and give 6 + 12 EPs with +100% EP = 36 EPs. At that relatively early stage of the game a few cities like that rapidly build up an advantage in EPs over the AI civs. With jails now in place and running Nationhood it is also a good time to turn some commerce into EPs at a good rate (1 commerce = 2 EPs). So my espionage strategy will often be delayed until this middle game stage and I’ll stockpile some gold beforehand in anticipation to finance deficit spending on EPs.


There are three different ways of acquiring techs through research. There's two different ways of acquiring techs through espionage. There's two different ways of acquiring techs through gold. Cottages are viable options for all three methods of acquiring techs. Specialists, as a method of acquiring techs, are a viable option only through research. Great People have utility as both 'bulbing and their special abilities.
Not sure quite what you mean here. I see only one way to gain technologies through using beakers (self-research) and one way through EPs (stealing). Gold can never give you a tech unless another civ trades with you for it in trade deal. For that you need good diplomatic relations. You could also trade your techs (however you gained them) for another civ’s techs or for a combination of techs and gold.

Code:
Table 1 - Methods of Acquiring Techs vs Sources of "commerce"

                cottages    specialists     'bulbing   mission
research          good         good           good       N/A
purchase          good         poor           N/A        good
steal             good         poor           N/A        good

Interesting, but why can’t I use a combined research and purchase strategy? Using merchants and running Representation you could gain gold to buy some techs and self research others. The same applies to running spies and stealing. In fact I look to use all three in my economies :P

As you can see, your definition of "cottage economy" doesn't tell anyone what your primary method of acquiring techs is, either for personal use or for trade. Are you building all those cottages to research the techs you need? Are you buying them? Are you stealing them? More information is needed to know what you're doing, as opposed to what your inputs are.
I don’t see why it is important to tell anyone how I will acquire my techs. My intention is to build a powerful economy and I trust that economy will be able to do it one way or another. Instead of being already committed to self research (as you seem to favour) I can choose which method is best according to the strengths of my economy and who my AI opponents are and what they are doing. It seems mine is the superior approach since I can do anything you could do and have additional options as well and they might be better than self researching technologies in some games and at some times.
As you can also see, your definition of "specialist economy" really only suggests one method of acquiring techs: research. 'Bulbing using the output of a GP farm is random, so you can't plan for getting a specific type of Great Person, while 'bulbing using Great People generated by many cities running specialists is highly predictable, and thus can be part of a plan.
I don’t think that is my definition of a SE.

I seldom lightbulb more than 2 GS on the way to Liberalism and except for a GM needed for Sids Sushi (if I decide to go that way rather than State Property) other than that I don’t care much what GPs pop out. They all have their uses and can be burned in a golden age.

You don't need multiple cities running specialists to acquire Great Merchants and Great Spies for their missions requires a single city running specialists primarily for the purpose of acquiring a Great Person. The normal output of those specialists is incidental to their output of GPPs.

How you get gold doesn't tell us anything about your strategy unless you're buying your techs. How you get espionage points doesn't tell us anything about your strategy unless you're stealing techs.

But how you aquire techs? That can tell us a lot.

I don’t feel the need to “tell” anyone about how my economy acquires techs. Why is this a concern? The reason I define my economy in terms of beakers, gold and EPs is that is allows me to assess my Empire’s total economic power and the flexibility I have for exchanging one of these commodities for another. That allows me to use my diplomatic and military strategies with more confidence. I am essentially considering a greater level of detail than your approach and that gives me more options or at least better understanding of what is happening.

Phew… that took far too long to write. I guess you’ll be the only person to read it all.
 
UncleJJ,

Rather than do a point by point reply like last time (which would get extremely long) I'll just say this.

I don't disagree with anything you said, per se. I do just about everything you do...

But...

At the end of the day, it's still about acquiring techs. You may be in trouble if you run out gold, but you're also in trouble if you can only build archers, and your neighbors are building tanks.

Mischievious RNG gods not withstanding. :spear:

I said it before, and I'll say it again: we seem to be approaching the same thing from two different directions. It doesn't necessarily mean either approach is inferior, but it does mean that we'll disagree.

To me, my economy is about getting me the techs I need. Yes, gold and espionage are technically part of the economy, but I view them as a drain on the focus of my economy, rather than part of a whole. My army can't conquor if I'm bringing an oversized knife to a gun fight. I can't win a cultural victory if I don't know how to build cathedrals. I can't launch a spaceship if I haven't studied astronomy. I might not be able to get Sitting Bull's vote if I can't switch to Environmentalism.





And yes, I treat my personal finances a lot differently than I treat gold in CIV. After all, real life doesn't have a reload and a begin new game option. ;)
 
Alright, for some reason a couple guys are making posts so long here that I can't bare to read.

So I'll just say this. UncleJJ has been around for quite a while, and I've noticed always take some keen interest in SE threads. And since he has also pretty much been accurate to details with beaker math revolving around this area... if he says something I'll just assume he knows what he's talking about and move on.

That is, unless he tells someone don't listen to Obsolete, or something else against me. But I don't think we disagree on much... :P
 
At the end of the day, it's still about acquiring techs. You may be in trouble if you run out gold, but you're also in trouble if you can only build archers, and your neighbors are building tanks.
Actually, IMO, at the end of the day, it's about paying your expenses, and managing your income to pay all those expenses.

Advancing your tech research (however you go about it, whether directly or indirectly through espionage or whatever) is one of your expenses.

As is paying unit maintenance, funding happiness through the culture slider, paying city maintenance, etc.

To me, my economy is about getting me the techs I need.
Personally I think my economy is about managing my inputs and outputs. Getting the techs I need or want is a strategic goal. I use my economy to fulfill that goal (among others).

Just me. :)

Wodan
 
If you can't pay your bills you'll go on strike and lose the game. If you can pay your bills, you'll advance in technology and win the game. At the end of the day, it's the same thing, just a different point of emphasis in terms of definition and how you want to look at it. One way is technically more correct in that it is more inclusive, but the other is technically true as well as technology is a, if not the, primary focus/goal of an economy in civ4. Personally, I find myself more sympathetic to DarkFrye, but I don't disagree with the other camp either.
 
Where the other definition becomes hazy for me is when we start to get into "espionage economy" and other weirdness.

(Other = if my "economy" is defined as "how I get my research")

Under this definition, a valid economy is building a crapload of units (even if obsolete) and beating the stuffing out of AIs and forcing them to give me all their techs. Then, I let them live and beat up on a different AI. Later on, I go back to the first one.

You could literally do nothing but build units, and leave your slider at 0% research the whole game, and I bet you would almost certainly win the game.

So is "do nothing but build units" an "economy"? It just seems weird to me, especially when the majority of the player management in such a game would be dealing with unit maintenance costs, but by definition that is not a part of the economy.

The only way it works (for me) is to define an economy as everything to do with your inputs or outputs that modify commerce/beakers/gold. It's the big picture that is your economy, not simply the little facet that deals with techs. If you didn't have that big picture, then the tech aspect would fall apart.

Wodan
 
Where the other definition becomes hazy for me is when we start to get into "espionage economy" and other weirdness.

(Other = if my "economy" is defined as "how I get my research")
That's the reason why many of us roll up "economy" and "tech aquisition strategy" into one definition... with the understanding that resources will be diverted to pay the bills and aquire information about other empires.

Defining an economy just by its inputs (specialists and cottages/commerce) and outputs (gold, beakers, espionage, culture) isn't nearly as informative as defining it by its inputs (specialists and commerce) and what you're doing with the outputs. Since you always have to pay your bills (lest your empire fall apart), and you always want to maintain an espionage level you find comfortable, how you use what's left (excess gold, excess espionage, beakers, and culture) determines your total economic strategy. Most people use what's left to drive research, which is why a lot of people view the generic Cottage Economy and Specialist Economy as being about research, and define non-research based economic strategies as ________ "economies."

Under this definition, a valid economy is building a crapload of units (even if obsolete) and beating the stuffing out of AIs and forcing them to give me all their techs. Then, I let them live and beat up on a different AI. Later on, I go back to the first one.

You could literally do nothing but build units, and leave your slider at 0% research the whole game, and I bet you would almost certainly win the game.

So is "do nothing but build units" an "economy"? It just seems weird to me, especially when the majority of the player management in such a game would be dealing with unit maintenance costs, but by definition that is not a part of the economy.
What you just described is known as a "war economy." You bully other Civs for their technology, plunder their lands, and focus on gold for unit upgrades and upkeep. You don't destroy them or vassalize them, just ensure that they'll spend a lot of time recovering while you move on to the next victim. It worked for the Mongols, after all. :cool:

It's called an "economy" due to the fact that research isn't the focus of your economy. Driving the engine of war is the focus of your economy.

The only way it works (for me) is to define an economy as everything to do with your inputs or outputs that modify commerce/beakers/gold. It's the big picture that is your economy, not simply the little facet that deals with techs. If you didn't have that big picture, then the tech aspect would fall apart.

Wodan
What I find interesting is that we both feel the other side is "looking at a little facet" and not concentrating on "the big picture." The only way it works (for me) is to define an economy both by its inputs and by what you do with the outputs, after paying your bills and maintaining your espionage at a comfortable level, of course.

Where I'm getting my inputs from determines the types of improvements my workers build, what civics I run, and what buildings I use for happiness and, to a lesser degree, health. What I'm doing with the outputs, determines what types of multiplication buildings I build and which I give priority to.

If I'm running an Espionage Economy, and I have to choose between a university and a jail, I naturally choose the jail. If I'm running a specialist economy, and I have to choose between a theatre and a market, then I choose the theatre unless it's a city I'm using to pay my bills. If I'm running a cottage economy, and I have to choose between a university and a grocer, then I choose the university unless the city is unhealthy or will soon become so.

There's only two main inputs in this game, cottages/commerce and specialists. There's four outputs in this game: beakers, gold, culture, and espionage. To me, an economic strategy isn't how you turn inputs into outputs. It's about what you do with the outputs after you've paid your bills and keep your espionage at a comfortable level. The default is research, thus the cottage economy and the specialist economy, then you get such speciality strategies as the espionage economy and the war economy, where the focus of your economy isn't research, but something else.
 
So when running a SE do run every city with specialists, or just the ones that can support it and cottage the rest? Or do you do it by specialists, like one merchant city, one tech city, etc.

Ah, the innocence of the noob. Little did you realise that such a simple question can spawn the kind of convoluted, unhelpful, and occasionally confrontational hair-splittery that has wracked this thread.

Welcome to civfanatics. ;)

In an attempt to answer your question, I'd say the following:

When running any kind of economy (no definitions here), you'll need sources of production, gold, and technology.

If you're going to farm up and run specialists in every city, then your gold and technology needs can be met by Merchant and Scientist specialists, as well as the GPs they produce, and by trading (both in terms of trade routes and negotiated trades for tech/gold).

Depending upon your rate of expansion (and the costs this generates), you'll need to find an appropriate balance between gold and research, and, to some extent, specialise your cities to maximise the output of each (ie. some prioritise gold-multiplying buildings and run Merchants, others prioritise science-multiplying buildings and run Scientists). For a more peaceful, or slower expanding empire, most cities will be science-oriented. The faster you expand, and the more you fight, the more you'll need to emphasise gold.

Your production will have to come from Priest and Engineer specialists (plus the resultant GPs - usually settled), from the whip, and/or from the small number of mines available to each city.

Overall, though, it's generally more effective to have dedicated production centres alongside your specialist cities - mines, workshops, and watermills all have a part to play here, as you strive to balance food and hammer tiles to get the highest possible hammer output. These cities are especially important if you're taking an aggressive approach.

Furthermore, as you suggest, you can throw some cottage cities into the mix, and create what's generally referred to as a Hybrid economy (again, I don't think it's helpful to define this any more precisely here). Depending on how you want to play, you'll probably want to concentrate all your specialist cities on either science or gold, and use the cottages to provide what you're not getting from the specialist cities.

Finally, even if you want to go for a full-on cottagey approach, you'll still want to have at least one specialist city to pump out the Great People. However, and unless you have a pressing need for a particular kind of GP, the best policy in this city is often just to run as many specialists as possible, regardless of the type. Obviously, if there's a choice, go with the more desirable GP points; but if not, it's usually better to keep those points flowing than to slow things down by obsessing about which GP you'll get.
 
That's the reason why many of us roll up "economy" and "tech aquisition strategy" into one definition...
Sure, I could get on board with that. What seems odd to me is the third group of people who leave out the "economy" and define it as the tech acquisition strategy with none of the driving mechanisms included.

Defining an economy just by its inputs (specialists and cottages/commerce) and outputs (gold, beakers, espionage, culture) isn't nearly as informative as defining it by its inputs (specialists and commerce) and what you're doing with the outputs.
That's what I meant by the outputs. Frankly, the output is only defined when it is put to use. It's the action of doing something with the output that defines it as an output, and the action is wrapped up into it.

Since you always have to pay your bills (lest your empire fall apart), and you always want to maintain an espionage level you find comfortable, how you use what's left (excess gold, excess espionage, beakers, and culture) determines your total economic strategy. Most people use what's left to drive research, which is why a lot of people view the generic Cottage Economy and Specialist Economy as being about research, and define non-research based economic strategies as ________ "economies."
I'm not sure I agree with that. For example, I think most people view a SE being more about production than about research. They wrap Slavery and SE into the same concept, more often than not. However, when we look closely at Slavery we can easily see that it detracts from research, rather than helping it (other than indirectly by whipping a Library etc.)

What you just described is known as a "war economy." You bully other Civs for their technology, plunder their lands, and focus on gold for unit upgrades and upkeep. You don't destroy them or vassalize them, just ensure that they'll spend a lot of time recovering while you move on to the next victim. It worked for the Mongols, after all. :cool:

It's called an "economy" due to the fact that research isn't the focus of your economy. Driving the engine of war is the focus of your economy.
Please realize that I was responding to the discussion which defined the economy as ONLY the actions which produce research. The definition you just gave is directly contradictory to that idea. As I said, that's why I feel that idea is weird. You and I are on the same page here.

What I find interesting is that we both feel the other side is "looking at a little facet" and not concentrating on "the big picture."
I think you're grouping people into two camps which don't exist. Everybody who posts on here seems to have a different "spin".

There's only two main inputs in this game, cottages/commerce and specialists.
There are a good number of secondary inputs, which, depending on the economy being implemented, would be considered a main input. e.g., anything that provides beakers, direct commerce, gold, EP.

There's four outputs in this game: beakers, gold, culture, and espionage.
I wouldn't include EP in the list UNLESS you're running an espionage economy OR have the espionage slider > 0%.

To me, an economic strategy isn't how you turn inputs into outputs. It's about what you do with the outputs after you've paid your bills and keep your espionage at a comfortable level. The default is research, thus the cottage economy and the specialist economy, then you get such speciality strategies as the espionage economy and the war economy, where the focus of your economy isn't research, but something else.
To me, what you do or get with the outputs is your strategic goal. Your economic strategy is how you manage your inputs in order to achieve that strategic goal. Your economy is the whole process.

Wodan
 
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